The *Official* Love Story Thread [v2.0]

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by RidingMyCarousel, Oct 23, 2002.

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  1. Sister_Sola Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2002
    star 4
    Why do so many people say that Vader blew up Dantooine?

    Tarkin gave the order. Vader just held Leia back from flipping out.
  2. AnakinSlave2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    I don't think that matters anyway. If he had to do the task, he would have. Let's not forget that he had just finished torturing Leia prior to her home planet being destroyed.
  3. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "No logical sane person would marry a murderer if they knew before hand that person was a murderer. Especially if that person had had no counseling or rehabilitation."

    And no logical sane person would condemm someone for wanting revenge on a bunch of serial killers for what they did to that person's mother if they knew how much that person loved his mom and what the Tusken Raiders are known for. Especially when the Tuskens have a reputation for attacking people for no reason and what transpired in AOTC certainly takes the cake.

    If Cliegg, Owen, and Beru knew what Anakin did, they would be proud of him because in their mind, Anakin is giving justice to them, his mom, and the 27 people who died trying to rescue her which is why, again, Padme couldn't sympathize with the Tuskens.

    "I don't think she will stop loving him or abandon him, but marrying him makes no sense to me. It in no way helps the situation, if anything it confuses him and hurts him more as well as feeds his guilt and internal conflict to whom he should devote his life. She is making matters worse."

    Matters would still be worse even if she didn't marry him and besides, it was Anakin who asked for a life-long relationship with her at the fireplace scene and just from watching the wedding scene, he looks more happy than confused or hurt.

    "Their are just some acts that cannot be overcome by love, murder being one of them. He needs help not a shoulder to cry on."

    Who is going to help him? The Jedi? They don't know how to relate to him or understand where he's coming from because they don't know their own parents or what motherly love feels like. The only counseling they can give him is "Bury your feelings" and meditation is their way of rehabilitating oneself but all of that will hurt Anakin even more which will push him deeper to the darkside.

    Obi-wan can't help him either because he overly criticizes Anakin too much every time Ani does something wrong and should he learn about the Tusken Massacre, he wouldn't hesitate to have the council kick Anakin out of the Jedi Order which will give Anakin plenty of reasons to hate Obi-wan.

    If Qui-Gon were alive, he would know what to do with Anakin when a situation like this happens but since he's dead, the only person who can help Anakin now is Padme.

    "She is a senator, someone who fights for the downtrotten all over the galaxy, including the aliens. Gungans aren't human and she helped them get recognized by her planet and the Republic. I think she is far more intelligent and compassionate then you give her credit for. If she is so small-minded that she can't see violent aliens as sentient beings deserving of the compassion you give her credit for then perhaps she deserves Anakin as a husband."

    Tell me, did she give the Geonosians any compassion despite that they tried to kill her and Anakin, helped capture Obi-wan and make him food to those Arena monsters, and helped the Seperatists build their battledroids, use them to attack the Republic, and help kill off some of the Jedi who tried to rescue Padme, Anakin, and Obi-wan?

    What about the Nemoidians? Did Padme give them any compassion despite that they invaded her planet and held it hostage by using battledroids?

    There is a fine line between who deserves compassion and who doesn't and in the case with the Gungans, even though they and Padme's people have their differences they still lived in peace together and were able to put the differences aside so they can free their planet from the Trade Federation.

    The Tuskens however are not so peaceful nor are they innocent. I'm not saying that the women and children deserve to die but there's no evidence to point out that they are any different from the men and too many people are protraying them like their the victims but they completely ignore the fact that the children are being raised to be killers like the adults.

    These "sentient beings" are nothing more than serial killers.

    "Yes they are shooting wildly at the racers in the pod-race, but they didn't hit or kill anyone that she sa
  4. AnakinSlave2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Yeah, let's not allow our obvious lust for Ewan McGregor cloud our opinions of Anakin.
  5. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    I am going to tread carefully here, because I know that many on here feel very passionately about the Love Story....(what an understatement!...*S*) I have no interest in getting folks angry and causing hurt...but at the same time this is one of the most intriguing aspects of AOTC and I think this is potentially one of the most interesting discussion threads. SO here goes (against my better judgment)....

    I think we need to see Episode 3 before having the final word on this topic, because, right now, there is a LOT we don't know (and I am not specifically dealing with the Tusken slaughter right now!).

    We all know that Anakin ends up as Vader and I think it is pretty clear that Vader, while not a simple character, is pretty much evil with a capital E by the time of ANH and ESB (while retaining elements of goodness that eventually help redeem him -- you can decide for yourself if the scales are really balanced by the end of ROTJ). And we have now seen Anakin move from a boy slave to a young man and almost-Jedi. What we haven't seen, really, is WHAT will cause his "fall", in detail. And I think that is key in putting a lot of AOTC in context - and in evaluating his romance with Padme.

    Maybe it is a reflection of where I am in MY life, but I find it interesting that so much of the discussion of Anakin here mirrors different views re parenting...

    Those who generally approve of the Love Story and seem inclined to "cut Anakin some slack" seem to feel that "blame" lies largely with the Jedi and Obi-Wan, who demand too much of him, and/or are just not equipped to give him what he needs emotionally, to help him deal with his trials. In this context, Padme is presented as giving Anakin the kind of support, love and compassion that the Jedi will not or cannot. She offers him comfort and solace and human acceptance, where the Jedi/Obi-Wan offer discipline and a cool detachment.

    Those who have misgivings about the Love Story also seem inclined to hold Anakin more directly responsible, and to turn the "blame" question on its head, seeing the Jedi and Obi-Wan more sympathetically, as well-meaning parents trying to rein in a particularly troubling and troubled child, who desperately NEEDS to learn control. In this context, Padme, with the best of intentions, actually gives Anakin some of the worst-possible advice/incentives... to lie, to give in to his impulses, to do things HIS way. In short, her love reinforces the traits that will hasten his fall, and she serves as an enabler... a very dark situation indeed.


    I would say the verdict is largely out...but I do feel an inclination towards the latter, particularly when I DO consider the aforementioned Tusken situation. In the DVD, GL chose to add in a line of dialogue that was not, to the best of my knowledge, used in the theatrical version. In response to Padme's comforting comments, Anakin now notes that he SHOULD be better than this (giving in to murderous vengeance) given who he is. I am inclined to agree. This is not just anyone going off and killing the Tusken village en masse, women and children as well...but someone with ten years of Jedi training in rejecting violence, bloodlust, personal retribution, and revenge. I think the restoration of this line is noteworthy... I think it is a gentle suggestion that we shouldn't let Anakin off TOO lightly for what he did there. I think GL is suggesting that we... and perhaps Padme... should NOT be so understanding as to miss the clear danger this outburst presages. I don't think it is coincidence that we see another child witness the death of a parent in AOTC - and we know the path down which Boba is headed, no? Ithink it safe to say that Boba too is inclined to give in to feelings of anger and vengeance, and will come to a bad end because of it.

    I also think we have to watch Palpatine here, who is (I would argue) a master manipulator with very evil motivations. Isn't he just like the cartoon devil that sits on your shoulder and whispers "They are holding you back! They are jealous of you! They don't understand that y
  6. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Shadow,
    As usual you bring well thought out ideas and commons sense to a too passionate discussion.

    I agree that there seems to be two schools of thought regarding the Tusken massacre and the overall amt of responsibility belonging to Anakin and how much blame should be shifted to others (Obi-Wan and the Jedi).

    That could be due to age differential, situational, or just plain bias towards one character over another. Since none of us knows the other's background then we'll just have to speculate.

    I am of the opinion that George Lucas' intent is to show that Anakin is fully responsible for his own downfall. He has said as much in several interviews and as you pointed out by that very critical stmt which was added into the DVD. Not only is Anakin making bad decisions by following flawed thought processes and letting his emotions dictate his actions but also by choosing his confidantes unwisely and by his own egotism. I for one think his unique background should make him better able to show compassion and control his emotions. Afterall how many in the PT world have the benefit of Jedi training.

    I understand that it is wrong to kill the women and children but they are not different from the men, they are not innocent victims, nor are they human because they are accomplises in Shmi's abduction, torturement, and death.

    Whaa?? How many children do you know in life and death situations who would/could stand up to their parents and stop them from acting in a way that those children have been taught to think as being absolutely normal for their society. Children are helpless to the whims of their parents and completely blameless --frankly any other interpretation is disturbing.

    Compassion isnt dependent upon agreeing with a cultures way of life, it's helping and understanding despite your own personal opinions and interests. True compassion costs you something, it's easy to feel compassion for a cute innocent child that is non-threatening but the true test is to feel it for a being (let a lone a child) that has personally hurt,insulted, stolen or even murdered a loved one. This type of compassion is what Anakin says is the Jedi dogma but obviously is unable to put into practice.

    By the way why does it matter if the Tuskens are human or not?
  7. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-Can

    Please answer this for me:

    1)Why was Shmi kidnapped by the Tuskens? What did she do?

    2)Why is it ok for 27 men to die? All they did was go out to save Shmi.

    3)Why did the Tusken women not stop the men form hurting Shmi? I don't want to hear well they may not have been able to or they did not know because they did.

    Please answer these for me I would really like to know. Because as of right know What the Tuskens did to Shmi was out of line she did nothing to them. All she did was go out to pick mushrooms and was then kidnapped. 30 men with familys of there own go out to save her only 3 come back. Was that wrong of them to do?
  8. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I am going to tread carefully here, because I know that many on here feel very passionately about the Love Story....(what an understatement!...*S*) I have no interest in getting folks angry and causing hurt...but at the same time this is one of the most intriguing aspects of AOTC and I think this is potentially one of the most interesting discussion threads. SO here goes (against my better judgment)....

    Welcome! If sticking to the topic folks generally don't get upset. How the topic of the Tusken Raiders keeps getting brought up (off topic) on this thread is beyond me...

    Good post Shadow Jedi - now back to the Love Story -NOT the Tusken "massacre" please....

  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Good post Shadow Jedi - now back to the Love Story -NOT the Tusken "massacre" please....

    Yes back to the Love story. But I don't know what to say just yet when I think of something I will post it.
  10. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Please keep the discussion focused on the Love Story, and not the Tusken slaughter. If you want to discuss the Tusken slaughter, there are other threads where you can discuss that. :)
  11. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, I swear if I see one more post that fixates on the *Censored* Tusken Confession I'll be the first to say "Lock this thread"...

    That's like saying Let's fixate on what a liar Obi-wan is because of his misleading statements in "A New Hope"...

    Here, change of focus...

    Fireplace Confession,

    He pours his heart out and Padme' says "NO"... Did she really want to say "Kiss me you hunka hunka Jedi Love?"

    Discuss

  12. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    He pours his heart out and Padme' says "NO"... Did she really want to say "Kiss me you hunka hunka Jedi Love?"

    I bet she did. I believe that she did not want Anakin to get kicked out of the Jedi Order which is why she said no.
  13. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Resurrecting the Love Story Thread [v2.0] will be a monumental task so I offer yet another interpretation of Anakin and Padmé's relationship in Episode II, and where it might lead us in the forthcoming finale to the Star Wars saga. I believe we have gone thoroughly through the mythological and psychological implications of this aspect of the saga, and even shared much of our personal experiences and philosophies in response to George Lucas's story in Attack of the Clones. In relatively few scenes, we witnessed the beginning of a relationship that will alter the fate of the GFFA. Fleeting though it was, Anakin and Padmé's bond has inspired a great response from Star Wars fandom, whether it is the thousands of internet shrines devoted to the young couple, or the indifference and cynicism it has garnered in other regions of the globe. In all of the responses I have read around the internet and the media, I believe critics and fans alike in particular have curiously ignored one subject. The parallel modern epidemics of illegitimacy and divorce have altered the very nature of the American family and I don't believe a gifted storyteller such as George Lucas would construct such a purposeful modern myth without addressing these caustic phenomenons. Even though one movie is yet to be completed, the crux of the saga will rely strictly on this matter.

    This weekend expect essays covering:

    The Single Motherhood of Shmi

    Even Perfect Love Can Go Wrong

    The Influence of Anakin and Padmé's Separation on Luke and Leia



    I hope this will encourage much debate and discussion, and I'm sure it will, given the strong personalities I've encountered on the boards. :D




    ******************************



    As the writer/director of the prequels and the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas is responsible for nearly every decision that makes it into the movies. Most of the artistic ones are heavily influenced by whom he chooses to employ in his company and during film production. His main focus is, of course, the story, screenplay, and direction of the actors, up to and including the final editing process. Being a fan of all movies in this saga, I tend to believe that he is intent on making the best Star Wars movies possible, so it follows that he would be extremely careful and thorough to weave a cohesive tale, especially given the large cultural impact of the first saga. I?m sure he employs many dedicated staff members to ensure that details of the saga remain consistent, but the major plot and character decisions must be his responsibility. Following that, it must imply that there is a general purpose to telling his story, especially given the enormous amount of time and money he has invested into the production of the movies, as well of the expansion of the galaxy into other entertainment mediums and products produced by Lucasfilm and its multiple subsidiaries. Every storytelling decision is further pressured by the expectations of the media and the millions of Star Wars fans around the world, many who have slavishly devoted their lives to these films. (myself included)

    His ultimate end, as he has stated in many interviews since 1977, is to create a modern myth. And as with most myths, it must embody certain truths of the civilization it originates from. Historically, many myths were cultivated many years after the time period they were set in, but because the Star Wars galaxy is set ?a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away,? I believe it allows Lucas to directly deal with the truths of the modern age, amidst a sea of great change and turmoil during the last century. This is one reason for the astounding success Star Wars has continued to enjoy. So my task in the following essays is offer my own particular theory as to why George Lucas has made certain narrative decisions, and what those choices, and the choices the characters make in the GFFA, may tell us about our own time.





    Hasta mañana... :D


  14. Crispy_Fried_Dentic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    star 2
    Ahh, I forgot all about this thread! Thanks for resurrecting it, The_Abstract; I'm looking forward to your essays :).
  15. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Due to the enormous excitement over my introduction ;) here is the first of the essays I promised...


    ********************




    The Single Motherhood of Shmi


    The Phantom Menace went a long way in setting up the galaxy 34 years before the events of A New Hope. The most important task of the movie is to introduce the character of Anakin Skywalker and define his purpose in the saga. George Lucas starts at the most obvious point, mythologically-speaking, which is the childhood of the hero. In a narrative parallel to ANH Anakin is brought into the story through events of galactic significance. The occupation of Naboo forces the abdication of Queen Amidala and the wayward journey to Tatooine accompanied by the Jedi Knights Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Although the prequel style of the films prevents us from ignoring the significance of Anakin?s presence, he is introduced in an off-hand manner in Watto?s junk shop. During the stopover on Tatooine, we learn much of Anakin?s background and character. He was born to a single mother, seemingly by the will of the Force (according to Jedi prophecy), but has spent his life as a slave to various suspect characters. Watto, who keeps him busy in his junk shop and also as a driver in the dangerous sport of pod-racing, has recognized his talent. If Watto were less concerned about using Anakin as a means to an end, and Tatooine not so far away from Coruscant, the Jedi Order may have discovered the boy?s gift earlier. Those circumstances certainly influence aspects of his character. In fact, it directly foreshadows Darth Vader?s obsession with order and control in the Original Trilogy. Anakin has had almost no control over the early part of his life, and has seen his mother suffer from her lack of freedom. The Jedi Order cannot alleviate the condition because their own power structure demands obedience in service to the Force and the Republic.

    There is also nature vs. nurture thread that runs throughout the saga. Anakin does live in squalid conditions, but his mother is there to take care of him. Luke and Leia are adopted by two-parent households, and raised without the knowledge of their father?s turn and parent?s separation. They both turn into well-developed, healthy adults, although the hidden truth manifests itself until a crisis point is reached in ESB.

    Shmi?s impact on Anakin is a positive one while he remains on Tatooine. Once he begins his training as a Jedi Knight, certain negative consequences begin to occur. We see what Anakin carries as a burden and lacks in character. His attachment to his mother is not only emotionally troublesome, but it creates a psychic attachment that causes the terrible nightmares he has in AOTC. The Jedi Code?s strict rules against personal attachment create one conflict in Anakin?s desires and psychological well-being. I don?t put too much stock in Freud, but unhealthy motherly attachments can disrupt adult romantic relationships, usually stunting the emotional growth of the person. Anakin is not allowed to evolve his feelings in any natural way. When he meets Padmé again in AOTC, he immediately feels something for her, but because he has grown up absent of emotional instruction, these feelings are wielded as dangerously as untrained Jedi would wield a lightsaber. Obi-Wan only offers repression as an alternative, but that advice is difficult to follow when Anakin is sent on an unsupervised escort mission for the Senator.

    The other detriment of Shmi?s solitary raising is the lack of a father figure. Since Anakin was born of the Force, he is ?adopted? by certain unsavory characters, including Gardulla the Hutt and Watto. We know how corrupt the Hutts behave, and this cannot have any positive effect on Anakin. It probably is responsible for a lot of the anti-authoritarian sentiment that runs through Anakin?s life. Watto is more benevolent, but he too uses Anakin to serve his own purposes. He recognizes Anakin?s talent, but exploits it in hopes of winning more money in local podraces.
  16. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Well Lucas himself was seriously burned on the topic of love and was betrayed by his wife. He has raised his own children on his own as a single parent, and all 3 of his children have said that they don't feel slighted by only having had one parent in their lives.

    If we see Shmi as the Virgin figure in this tale, she is utterly pure, and perfect. She knows compassion and freely gives away love to her son. I believe that Lucas wanted us to see Shmi's raising him, not as a hinderance in his upbringing, but that she did the absolute best that she could, considering their circumstances in life.

    What is interesting is that both of the twins were raised by surrogate parents. If the Jedi were so against parental attachments, why did they allow the twins to be raised that way and not by, say Yoda and Obi-Wan together in seclusion somewhere? Unfortunately, that leads into unknown Ep 3 territory.

    I do believe that Anakin's fierce attachment to his mother does hinder his ability to conform with the Jedi. He understands the power of love and needs it to survive. He doesn't feel complete unless he is loved. Shmi taught him of love and to be selfless- it was once he reached the Jedi Order that he started to become corruptable and restless. Lonely people will seek support wherever they can. Obi-Wan was a harder parental figure than Shmi. He criticized Anakin at every turn, so he turned to Palpatine as a place to vent his frustrations. Palpy was all too happy to comply w/ twisting Anakin's emotions around, creating an aura of distrust towards those who were trying to raise him.

    I don't see Shmi a hinderance... she ultimately taught him to love and love is what eventually saves his soul in the end.
  17. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    I do believe that Anakin's fierce attachment to his mother does hinder his ability to conform with the Jedi. He understands the power of love and needs it to survive. He doesn't feel complete unless he is loved. Shmi taught him of love and to be selfless- it was once he reached the Jedi Order that he started to become corruptable and restless. Lonely people will seek support wherever they can. Obi-Wan was a harder parental figure than Shmi.

    I agree that Shmi's type of parenting in someways did hinder Anakin's development and contributed to his ultimate failure. He is a being that is ruled by his baser instincts of survival. I believe Shmi planted the seeds of his specialness with the immaculate conception story and his special powers, which was further confirmed by Qui-Gon with his calling him the "Chosen One". All these things planted the seed and expectation that power and recognition would come easy to him. Anakin afterall treasures the power of the force but discounts the spiritual and intellectual aspects of that same force. He cares very little about gaining the wisdom to wield his power in a balanced and judicious manner, his focus is just in gaining more power.

    However, I can understand her logic and need to raise him the way she did. The one thing that a child needs to become a balanced self-sufficient adult is security. Shmi did the best she could in their situation. I believe his slavery and the precarious and dangerous world they lived in had more to do with who he became and was what ultimately shaped him into the dark figure we will see in Darth Vader.

    I also agree that Anakin values love, in that he needs to be loved and admired, but never truly participates in it. His type of love is more possessive in nature, he needs it therefore he will have it. Shmi and Padme both fulfill a need, however we never see him truly give or sacrifice anything in exchange for that love. Afterall, possessions to a slave or more precious than anything. They want to own their own freedom above all else. This is evidenced by Anakin's actions throughout the PT, he leaves Shmi alone on tatooine because he needs to be trained as a Jedi and never sees her again. He puts his needs above hers. It's a logical choice, but how many of us would have done the same thing. He wants Padme but is not willing to give up being a Jedi for that love. It is a possessive love borne of his need, but true love (self-less love) is impossible for him to contemplate. He treasures love in as much as he wishes to be loved and cherished and honored, but never truly participates in it. After all he never tells Shmi nor Padme that he loves them. He misses them, he wants them. He relates to both of them from his own needs but never asks what they need from him.

    Again going back to the nurture vs nature.
    Where you see that Shmi and Obi-Wan caused much of his problems (nurture). I see that they may have unknowingly contributed to his existing weaknesses, however he was a flawed individual at birth who fell into situations and relationships that only exacerbated his ultimate pre-destined failure.

    He criticized Anakin at every turn, so he turned to Palpatine as a place to vent his frustrations. Palpy was all too happy to comply w/ twisting Anakin's emotions around, creating an aura of distrust towards those who were trying to raise him.

    Obi-Wan didn't criticise Anakin at every turn. He guided and taught him lessons at every turn, which is his job. The problem wasn't in the Jedi training it was in how Anakin responded to it. The Jedi afterall is a form of servitude, the exactly wrong profession for a former slave who has issues with self-esteem and authority.

    Therefore, Shmi planted the seed of egotism in him and Palpatine just fed Anakin more of the same. He rejects Obi-Wan's teachings because it doesn't fulfill his need for sycophantism. He only needs the power that the force offers him, he rejects all other aspects of the Jedi.








  18. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Therefore, Shmi planted the seed of egotism in him and Palpatine just fed Anakin more of the same.

    Please give a specific example from the films where you find proof of your theory about Shmi filling Anakin with arrogance and feeding his ego.

    Anakin was not arrogant in TPM- that was the whole point to the film. The boy was pure and compassionate. He orchestrated being in the race so he could help out Qui-Gon and Padme so they could leave the planet. He wanted nothing in return. He knew nothing about his destiny, until Qui-Gon gave him the choice to leave.

    He chose to leave because it was what he always wanted. Shmi let him go because eventually, that is what all parents must do at some point. She would never have forced her son to stay behind when he could become something much greater than he already was. Qui-Gon gave him the opportunity to be free- something she could never do for him because of her slave status.

    From what I can tell, I don't think Shmi ever told ANYONE other than Qui-Gon about Anakin's lack of a father. She was hesitant to say anything to Qui-Gon but finally told him because she noted his keen interest in Anakin's abilities. Why would she tell anybody? It was a strange, and unsettling thing to have happen to her. She certainly wouldn't tell Anakin about it.

    Having pride in oneself and ones abilities to do things is different than being proud, it's called having self-esteem.

    Anakin only learned of his possible importance in life from Qui-Gon. It was only when he reached the Jedi that he began to learn arrogance. Without Palpatine there to contradict Obi-Wan's teachings, there's no saying that Anakin wouldn't have eventually shaped up and listened to his master.
  19. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Please give a specific example from the films where you find proof of your theory about Shmi filling Anakin with arrogance and feeding his ego.

    I don?t think I said that she filled Anakin with arrogance. My point was she tried to overcome their circumstances by making him feel special about himself. I never bought the story she comes up with about his birth, sounds like a desperate woman who comes up with a beautiful story for her son to explain some ugly realities of slavery, such as rape. I don?t believe there is a specific incident where we see her tell him of his so-called immaculate conception, but her attitude towards her child is that he is special and has great powers. What do you think she told him when he asked who his father was? Did she lie and say your father died or your father left me or I don?t know. Just as I have no proof that she told him, you have no proof that she didn?t. We can only go by our own different takes on a story point that isn?t explained fully, purposefully I would think.

    Anakin was not arrogant in TPM- that was the whole point to the film. The boy was pure and compassionate. He orchestrated being in the race so he could help out Qui-Gon and Padme so they could leave the planet. He wanted nothing in return. He knew nothing about his destiny, until Qui-Gon gave him the choice to leave.

    Again, I don?t believe he was arrogant at that point. I think he believed he was special, face it he was. However, Shmi planted the seed for his being special and then Qui-Gon (a very bad thing) tells him he?s the Chosen One. Now this revelation alone may not have caused the extreme arrogance and egotism to grow in a normal boy, but in a slave boy who suddenly has his every dream come true it certainly starts the ball rolling. My guess, again not explained how or why he becomes the arrogant Anakin, but Palpatine?s sycophantic dealings with the boy probably pushes him all the way into it. He certainly fed his resentment towards the JedI and undermined Obi-Wan?s authority. However, the weakness was already there. If it had been someone else with a different temperament and inherent weaknesses the outcome probably would have been different. Different people react to circumstances differently.

    He chose to leave because it was what he always wanted. Shmi let him go because eventually, that is what all parents must do at some point. She would never have forced her son to stay behind when he could become something much greater than he already was. Qui-Gon gave him the opportunity to be free- something she could never do for him because of her slave status.

    I agree, Shmi acts like any loving mother would, giving up her son to better his future, self-less love. I just don?t know that at 9 years old I could leave my mother knowing I would never see her again and if I did would I have flourished or grown so heart-broken they would have to send me back or either let me contact her. Nine is a very needy age. I think this shows that Anakin is not a normal 9 year old, he?s independent and has very insular emotions. I see this as a likely bi-product of growing up in a very insecure and tenuous environment where you don?t know if you?ll be sold away from your family at any moment.
  20. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Great post, Abs.

    The point is, I think, that no matter how good a mother Shmi was or appeared to have been to the casual viewer, there was still something missing from Anakin's early years which makes him bristle against authority -- especially the kind of authority represented by Obi Wan: a discipline which reins in arrogant tendencies. Conrast to this the authority of Palpatine, which nurtures the boy's arrogance.

    What then was missing from Anakin's early years?

    The_Abstract posits that it is the lack of a father figure in Anakin's life. Ok, but I'd like to re-articulate that in somewhat more mythological terms.

    Often the hero's journey originates as an escape from the womb. In gender terms, the hero can only establish his virile, masculine identity by extracting himself from the overwhelming, solipsistic existence of the mother. Consider, for example, the journey of Telemachus from Homer's Odyssey. In somewhat more provocative mythological terms, the boy's nemesis becomes the mother: masculine Olympian order can only be established by the defeat and/or transmutation of the chthonic feminine goddess.

    Granted, this is not how Anakin's story plays out overtly in SW, but this is, after all, a symbolic history, no?

    All this makes me think that Anakin Skywalker actually has much in common with NORMAN BATES. Both Anakin and Norman suffer from a kind of schizophrenia (I'm not a psychologist, just a literary critic): we can clearly see Anakin's conflicted double-consciousness throughout ROTJ, whereas Norman Bates plays out his own psychodrama both by (a) destroying the women who are threats to his mother ("She's a slut! A whore!") and (b) by actually BECOMING his mother.

    The personae of Darth Vader and Norman Bates are both egotistical strategies for imposing a kind of self-referential order on the world. Unable to escape the womb, both Anakin and Norman still grapple with the dominating power of the mother.
  21. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    I never bought the story she comes up with about his birth, sounds like a desperate woman who comes up with a beautiful story for her son to explain some ugly realities of slavery, such as rape. I don?t believe there is a specific incident where we see her tell him of his so-called immaculate conception, but her attitude towards her child is that he is special and has great powers. What do you think she told him when he asked who his father was? Did she lie and say your father died or your father left me or I don?t know. Just as I have no proof that she told him, you have no proof that she didn?t. We can only go by our own different takes on a story point that isn?t explained fully, purposefully I would think.

    Well it's unfortunate that you don't believe the virgin birth aspect of the story, because that is what George Lucas did intend with this story. He based his films on mythology, and although Christianity is the most widely read story that speaks of a virgin birth- such stories have been around for centuries and retold in many different cultures. This is just his way of including this mythological aspect into the film.

    Anakin was conceived by the Force and is the Chosen One from an ancient Prophecy. His special birth heralds that fact, and marks the fact that the Force is unbalanced.

    And yes, I agree, I have no idea if Shmi ever told Anakin about his father, but Anakin never seems very interested in learning who his father was. He doesn't mention his lack of a father in his life. For him, his mother provided him with enough love that he did not need/long for a father figure.

    Luke's journey is that of the Father Quest which is why his need to know his father is strong in him and carries him forward in his life.

    Your modern day interpretations of the story are interesting as always, Obi-Can. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, but it does create interesting discussion.

    Classixboy

    Whoa! I don't know where that all came from. I don't see Anakin as having a mother complex. I firmly believe that Anakin's problems come from the fact of his birth. He is half-god and half-human. I don't know a lot about particular mythologies, but I do know that usually the half-gods tend to take after their human side more than their deity self.

    They experience emotions in ways that gods do not. It is the power behind human emotions that converts and changes the demigod. Emotions make one feel alive, whether that is love or hate. Anakin's need for need drives him, and when love is gone or rudely taken from his life, he sinks into hate. According to the O/S it will be his blinding hatred of Obi-Wan that will keep Anakin alive after his fall. It is only through raw emotional power that keeps him alive when his body has failed and has been destroyed.

    His problem is that along the way he forgot the true meaning of the word compassion, and it takes him a long time before he recalls that once, long ago he was selfless. He remembers this when he sees his son chose to end his own life, rather than take another.

    There is a duality to Vader, I agree. And if you read Blindman's hysterical "The Vader Monologues" over in the Fanfic forum, there is a degree of truth to your idea of him being a bit schitzo. Anakin has a long, drawn out battle with himself and has to decide which path is correct- that of possession, and hatred, or compassion and light. It is easy to choose to hate and loathe, it is much more difficult to forgive and love.

    In the end Anakin finally choses the correct path after spending much of his life enslaved to his raw human emotions.
  22. GunraysLawyer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2003
    star 4
    With some trepidation, I step off the edge into this abyss....

    I can't say that I'm sure that I agree with a lot of the anaylsis posted here recently, but I feel compelled to add the following:

    1)Anakin is amazingly well grounded in TPM for the life he has lead. This is a credit to Shmi;

    2)He is Special and not in some PC self-esteem promoting way...he is objectively special and different;

    3)I agree with the half-divine/half human myth based approach of PLJ , read up on Hercules, the similarities, even in behavior, are very interesting;

    4)The AOTC Anakin is a product of a number of things, among them the lack of parental love, Jedi arrogance, growing through adolescence surrounded by people who have no understanding of adult emotion other than as something to repress, and the general pain in the rear nature of late teenage men;

    5)The Padme-Anakin relationship is immensely complicated, and they both take quite a lot from the other (this is particularly clear from the development of Padme's personality left on the cutting room floor due to length concerns, but restored for the DVD).

    6)The great problem in the realtionship is not emotionally immaturity (though it is there on both sides), but an unwillingness to face unpleasant truths. The most particular being that nothing can remain the same. I can tell you from personal experience, everything changes when madly in love, and even more so with marriage. The thing with marriage is compromises in life become absolutely necessary...marriage is far harder than love. My own marriage, and observation of much of my parents' 35 years of marriage (I can't say that I remember much of my first two years, so I guess "much of"= 31 years) have convinced me of this. The problem is that at least in AOTC neither is willing to make these compromises and give up things. I think that if they had both been willing to leave their respective positions, then they could have had a long happy marriage, but if neither or only one was willing to change lanes in their future plans, the problems are huge. Sadly, this is where things seem headed... :( :_|

    Finally, as for the selfless love issue, this depends on one's view of love and these characters...In fact, I am not sure that it is possible to be in the "madly in love" stage of romatic love, and be selfless in the way of compassion (the "No greater love hath a man than this to lay down his life for his friend" sort of love)toward the other or towards people not the lover, who naturally becomes more important than anything.

    I think there is ample evidence in conduct to conclude that private selfless love(i.e. being ready to sacrifice for the other to the detriment of one's well being) exists between these two. Remember the Black Letter Law of evidence/proof, a factfinder can legitimately find intent from conduct.

    Well, enough for now, I expect to be disagreed with, perhaps vehemently, so don't be shy. :)

    Enjoy,
    Gunray's Lawyer
  23. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ: I don't see Anakin as having a mother complex.

    Neither do I. In fact the term "mother complex" is too myopically psychological for what I'm getting at.

    Shmi's gender (and, for that matter, Padme's gender) can be seen from a mythologically symbolic perspective. The feminine elements of Anakin's life represent a conceptualization of the world in which emotional attachment is the primary motivating force. Obi Wan and the Jedi order, by contrast, represent an alternate conceptualization of the world: cold, logical, anti-emotional, and (to sustain the gender metaphor) phallic (consider the image of the Jedi temple).

    It is only in this regard, I think, that Anakin has a "mother complex." He cannot become the Jedi that Obi Wan wants him to become because he cannot escape or control the feminine influences in his life.

    When looked at from this perspective, it makes sense that Anakin's conflicting conceptualizations of the world can be divided along gender lines.
  24. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Great comments by all.

    I think classixboy has the best idea at what I was trying to get at with the post. Anakin does not have a "mother complex" per se. This is one of the reasons I abhor using Freud. He took something that was meant to be symbolic in the old myths and tried to turn it into hard science. Anakin isn't literally affected by Shmi in any detrimental way. But there is still a void left in his life by the lack of a postive male/authoritarian influence. He's all emotion/action/reaction where the Jedi require him to be contemplative/disciplined/patient. Every instinct he has and the enormous power he wields pushes him to the edge. Because Anakin either cannot or will not control these impulses he suffers the consequences. And one great thing about Star Wars is that we see those consequences unfold in horrific fashion.






  25. Arriss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 4
    Shmi provided Anakin with love and understanding, as any mother does and she let him go when his destiny was set before him. A selfless act from Shmi and one Anakin doesn?t quite understand the ramifications of at his tender age.

    Anakin went from a loving home with his mother to the sterile, unyielding ?home? of the Jedi. Opposite ends of the spectrum from one another.

    If only we had the knowledge of those missing 10 years?
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