The Official Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

You think reading fiction is completely pointless? Aw, man, who wants to tell him?



...Okay, I'll do it. If stories that didn't happen aren't your cup of tea, then maybe you should join a historian's society. Or at least look in the nonfiction section of the bookstore. Clearly, Star Wars novels aren't for you.

 

Are you being deliberately dense? Of course Star Wars is fiction. The point is, Shadows of Mindor is in-universe fiction. It didn't actually happen like that. None of it matters because it's just Geptun's dramatization.

 

The entire point of this story was to prove that the Dark always wins in the end.

I'm glad you, for one, understood that. There is really no other purpose to it all.

 

I think you guys just need to chill...

 

You do get the point though, even if you refuse to admit it. The end of the novel clearly leaves us wondering what parts of the story were actually real and which parts were embellishment.

This is a franchise that has an ever fluctuating established history of its own. Where the events of this book fit into that history is terribly ambiguous, except as a holo-drama. And thats how its meant to be. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a joke, its just thats the story that Matt wanted to tell.

That wasn't my issue with the book, but I can easily see why some would feel that way. Matt included so much good characterization in this book, really great characterization actually, but to me Cronal and the meltmassif were just way too over the top.

While the dialog was great the story was not, thats why my thumbs were in the middle on this one. Matt's other Star Wars novels have been much better in my eyes.

 

Honestly, if you don't like an unreliable narrator, you'd probably hate about every modernism book ever. And a bunch of mysteries. Stover feed into my own idea that the books are the equivalent of books in their own universe, and while events did happen, they might not have happened the way that they are said to be. This is reflective of the real world also. After all, how are you going to be a subjective view on any occurrence that has happened over the last thousands of years? While the Thermopylae battle may have happened, it certainly wasn't as epic as it was in 300.
Also, I thought the point of Blackhole was to be outlandish and off the wall. After all, it was inspired by the Han Solo and Lando novels, which are written with much less sanity than today's books are.

 

Sure, that was the point, that doesn't mean people have to like it.

This idea presented that a wide subsection of books(like Star Wars books in general ) are not for this person or that person because they do not enjoy that aspect of Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor is heavy handed to say the least.

As for Blackhole, if there is a point I'm sure thats it(though I'd argue that the Han Solo novels were not that outlandish). Thats neither here nor there to my critcism.

 

I think it helps that it can be taken in quite a variety of ways, too, though. You can take it as saying none of it is accurate at all... or you can say that what we actually got is pretty close to what actually happened, given how thoroughly Luke was going to edit Geptun's script there are the end. (Besides, we didn't get a script, we got a book.)

I took it as something of a joke. Yes, it's fiction... but even the "fictional" fiction fits perfectly with what we know of the EU. So, in some sense, "it's all just fiction." You can choose what to do with that. I choose to keep it. You can choose not to. I understand why people dislike that, but I enjoyed it as the frame story and conceit for this book.

 

Well... there is, of course, that little part at the end where Luke states something akin to (and I'm paraphrasing here), "Geptun, why'd you hook me and Aeona up as the romance in your story? That was Nick's girlfriend! I don't even like redheads!" Since this never actually occurred in the story, I'm partial to accept most of the actual narrative we read as the truth.

 

Hey, I apologize for making you the butt of a joke. But you've got to admit, the exchange was fairly humorous--you said you didn't know how much of the novel was fiction, Master_Keralys said it was all "fiction," and you said that made it pointless. I thought it was funny, so I sent a little gentle ribbing your way. No harm meant.

I know, I know--I just think that sometimes this emphasis on "What's real?" can work to the detriment of story, and it helps to take a step back and say, "Actually, none of it is." Someone pointed out recently in the Knight Errant thread that possibly due to Wookieepedia, there's this ever-greater push to lay things down concretely and in fine detail, especially with regards to what happened when. Personally, it's one of the reasons I'm a fan of (minor spoiler alert) Dynasty of Evil's more ambiguous ending--because I think that stories with a certain degree of ambiguity can be fun.

Also, I'm sure part of it is the advocate for the Tales comics in me coming out again: I have a huge respect for continuity, but I also think there's something fun about stories that set out to throw off continuity's shackles and just play around in Mr. Lucas's sandbox.

And I admit, I can certainly see the added frustration with a story that is ambiguously canon, as opposed to clearly canon or clearly non-canon. But I guess I figure the canonicity of the novel is pretty much the same as that of any other Star Wars novel--it's all canon, unless it contradicts some other source, in which case we'll have to work out how to explain the differences. With Shadows of Mindor, we're just lucky enough that it comes with a Ready-Made Continuity Error Fixer-Upper?, in that any inconsistencies can be dismissed as products of the holothriller that aren't true of the "real" Battle of Mindor.

Fair enough. But it does remind me of Mr. Stover's conclusion in Star Wars on Trial:

I'm on board with this. And I think the reason why is because the emphasis is on how you take it, not on some free-standing continuity that's "out there." I think that's important to have, but I also think that it's important to remember that in a fictional universe, you're allowed to pick and choose what you want. And a story like this serves to remind you of that.

Ah right, enough out of me. Sorry for the long post.

 

That'd be me.

Your DoE example is a very apt one, in fact. That's the kind of grey storytelling that seems to be rarer and rarer. Or, well, even when the author means for something to be less black-and-white than is more often the case, the urgency of "We must fill in the date of death for the Wookiee!" always leads to the sort of problems that the book led to; a continuity war of Person A arguing X, Person B arguing Y, and it becoming a highly emotive issue and quickly inflamed, and the author needing to step in and clear the firestorm up.

Which is a shame. I always thought one of Traitor's greatest and most lasting compliments was its ambiguity. If it hadn't been ambiguous, if Vergere had categorically been identified as Sith or Jedi or Other people wouldn't still be discussing the book to this day. The same is true of stories like KOTOR2, which has provided a wealth of discussion--which will likely will finally reach its conclusion when TOR fills in the gaps.

Which is why right this moment I'm fine not knowing exactly where Knight Errant is. 1032 BBY? 1040 BBY? 1050 BBY? "A thousand years before" is enough of a generalisation for me to not get all pedantic over exactly where JJM plans to set it. I'd sooner he work the story out first, and worry about which year makes most sense later, than write himself into a corner regarding how old any possible future cameo characters might be. Which essentially is what he did in KOTOR given we only finally found out how long the series ran for in the very last issue. Until then, we were still playing the guessing game over how deep into the Mandalorian Wars we had progressed.

Anyway... as far as SoM goes, I always just thought...

...the same as The_Dark, i.e. I took the story itself as written as accurate, and the start and finish as just a tongue-in-cheek gag about the possible conflicting entries that may have been written over the years in various chronologies, guides, sourcebooks, etc. It struck me as the kind of voice over you sometimes get in films where the shot is showing you what really happened, whilst over the top you're simultaneously getting some dork going "And this happened... and then this..." yet on screen you're watching what really happened and knowing that they're talking out of their backside. Think the kind of scenes you might get in a romcom where the guy goes "And she came onto me and we made out" when in fact the visual is showing you him getting slapped and the girl storming off in a huff.

 

Perhaps, but having to read Stover spell out each and every one of Chewie's rumblings became unbearably irritating. Add to that the Mandalorians; I am utterly sick of Mandalorians.

Is it when you're dealing with personal canon. Personal canon is, IMO, far more substantial than official canon could ever be.

The eborsisk gives this holothriller two necks down.

 

Personal canon is an oxymoron.

 

No it isn't.

 

Wow, glad this thing got bumped- I wasn't a member when it was released, so I never got to gush about it!

Honestly, I LOVED this book. Then again, I loved Brian Daley's Han Solo books, too, so having a Luke Skywalker-centric novel based on that formula is just freakin' awesome, IMHO.

While Luke's depression over the Dark got grating a bit, it was just setting up his eventual triumph. Once again, we get a Luke Skywalker who can come from the depths of despair and triumph over absolute evil, and I for one am all for MORE of that!

Of course, Luke being that ridiculously powerful that EARLY in his career really hammers home why the power inherent in the Chosen One's bloodline is so desireable to folks like Palpatine and Cronal. Even before he's reached Grand Master Luke levels, he's already a powerhouse beyond what anyone could expect!

Cronal was so delightfully over-the-top, it was GREAT! I don't care what people say, we NEED more villains like that in Star Wars. See, that's part of the reason why I like Abeloth so much- she fills a gap that hasn't been completely filled since Palpatine. Sure, we've had Sith here, there, everywhere, and coming out the main characters' EARS, but they never brought that feeling of absolute, pure, mythic EVIL that Palpatine always wore like a cloak.

Palpatine WAS the dark side. The other Sith are just, well, Sith. Even Caedus failed to inspire the same sense of absolute dread, and the One Sith are just PATHETIC compared to Palpy.

Cronal, with his delightfully-over-the-top nihilistic worldview, was the closest to Palpatine we'd gotten prior to Abeloth coming along, so that's a BIG plus for Mindor!

Also, it was great to finally see that picnic alluded to in CoPL- the one where Han and Leia ate old rations surrounded by stormtrooper rations.

And the cover- oh, wow. Don't get me STARTED on that! Best. Star. Wars. Cover. EVER. End of discussion!

 

yeah i loved this book too. stover is the master

 

Yeah, the Chewie grumblings did get a little old, but it was great to see him around. The R2 scenes more than made up for getting a transliteration of Chewie's thoughts.

 

Well, going by the definitions of the words, it is an oxymoron. Canon is writing accepted as true (the arbiter in the case of Star Wars is Lucasfilm), and personal means yours. Since you are not Lucasfilm (unless you are, if you are I have some story ideas I'd like to pitch) you really don't get to dictate canon. Yes, you bought it, but I bought the Talmud and the Catholic Chuch isn't going to recognize that no matter how many times I ask them to, because I don't get to decide canon. "Personal canon," which from your posts seems to mean "books I like" is exactly that, books you like or don't, but your tastes have no baring on what is canon, because canon doesn't mean that.



Anyways, 106 pages into the paperback and I'm really enjoying it so far (even if it's taking me forever with school and whatnot). Everybody seems to get their moment, from Luke, Liea and Han to Hobbie. Stover cemented himself as my favourite EU novelist with Shatterpoint, and this book seems to be continuing along that path of awesomeness.

 

I didn't mind them all that much--yeah, Mr. Stover translated some of them, but another good chunk were left as regular garbled Wookiee noise that Han dialogued with. And as a couple other posters have said, I was just happy to see Chewie featured.

I will say, though, that the most bizarre one was when Chewbacca growled something that somehow corrected Han's pronunciation of "Mindar" to "Mindor." How the heck would that work?

 

Chewie: <O, not A, dumbass.>

Han: "Bite me."

 

Actually, I felt somewhat the same about Cronal as I just a Palpatine vibe from him completely. The way he talks, his imagery and all.... its like a mixture between Palpatine during the Clone Wars and Palpatine as the Emperor so I quite enjoyed that.

 

I think that was a bit of an in-joke. Mindor is spelled "Mindar" in Courtship of Princess Leia.

But as for what Chewie said, I think that Havac nailed it.

 

I think it was an in-joke, too, I just thought it odd (and funny) that Chewie would be correcting Han's pronunciation of something. But you're right, Havac's dialogue would work--I s'pose it's really not too much of a stretch to think that Shriiwook could have words for Basic letters.

 

Here's a brief rundown on what canon is :

"Those sources, especially including literary works, which are generally considered authoritative regarding a given fictional universe."

It doesn't say "Those sources, especially including literary works, which are generally considered authoritative by the original creators and/or copyright holders of said works regarding a given fictional universe." It just says "considered authoritative".

I have my own idea on what is to be considered authoritative or non-authoritative, I have my own criteria for defining which is which. It's not official, it's not recognized by a greater body, but it is still a form of canon.

 

From a literary perspective, canon is very fickle and subject to constant revision as well as multiple views on what counts as cannon and what doesn't.

I can see where a personal cannon can be regarded as an oxymoron, but the idea of a personal canon is pretty common--even in academic circles.

People are even adopting their own sort of personal cannons for religious views.

I see know problem with a personal cannon.

 

Actually, even the definition you quoted puts the lie to your claim:

Since, by definition, "generally" isn't limited to your personal opinions, that's a nonsensical use of the term.

You can have the books you like and dislike, but the canon here particularly refers to how books relate to each other. You can, for example, hate the Thrawn Trilogy... but if you try to "erase" it from some sort of personal version of the universe, you're then left with erasing everything else that depends on the Thrawn Trilogy or references it in any way. With some sources, that's no big deal, but with others?TTT being a great example?good luck!

In any case, and more to the point, your own personal approach to the universe is absolutely irrelevant here on Lit. First and foremost, it has no bearing on discussions?because Lit's standard always has been and always will be as follows:

Second, the whole point of Lit is discussing how all the EU fits together. You're not going to get very far with your "personal canon" in discussions here.

Keep what you want for yourself... just don't expect anyone to take you seriously in conversation about the EU when you bring that up.