Discussion in 'Games' started by ATATzsinj, Jun 25, 1999.
Sorry, double post.
[This message has been edited by Tom C (edited 07-09-1999).]
You raise an old point, Tom C, and one that people who didn't like TPM already have an answer for:
You're "bashing" ANH.
The logic works like this: If you don't like TPM, and can come up with a list of its flaws, and then someone comes along and says that similar flaws are found in ANH, then you are lowering ANH to the level of TPM, hence "bashing" it.
In fact, you're raising TPM to the level of the original trilogy, because who the hell would get on a Star Wars forum and say that the ANH, what people called "The original Star Wars" for years, sucked?
I think the time has come for a serious thread comparing TPM to the classic trilogy, flaws and all.
What do y'all think?
[This message has been edited by Sith Acolyte (edited 07-09-1999).]
Sith Acolyte: Sorry. I didn't mean to denigrate the holy trilogy!...Just kidding.
I love the original trilogy, warts and all. There are parts that some non-fan may cringe at, that I revel in. Just like in TPM. (Like where Darth Vader's hand is still moving after he's finished his talk with Moff Tarkin in ANH. We know that this is because Prowse finished the line after James Earl Jones did, but I love it. Of course, if ANH was out today, Lucas would have been lashed for amateurish editing and cinematography.) Again, charge me with blasphemy!
I think it would be great to start a TPM/Classic Trilogy thread. But I think it should be ANH/TPM intensive since ESB and ROTJ richly enhanced parts of ANH, something TPM does not have the benefit of.
I couldn't let my thread die...
I agree with all your points, count me in too.
As the newest TPM Basher, I feel the need to say that there were good points and bad points to TPM, but I've always had a defiance to authority and a hatred for what's "popular", so that's probably some of what pushed me over the line. Oh yeah, three little words changed my view of TPM:
JAR JAR BINKS
The difference in the acting between the old trilogy and the new one, is that in the old one the actors did just enough to sell the scene. The only ones that manage that in TPM is Liam, Ewan, Ian, and Natalie (when shes playing the queen). Jake Lyod had one good scene, when he's yelling "it's working", Jar Jar had two good scenes, Panaka had the rest had none. Infact most of the humans in the movie had a bewildered look in thier faces, trying to figure out what exactly they're supposed to be doing.
Angelus Draven: You dislike popular things, and one of the reasons you didn't like TPM is because... (surprise, surprise!) you didn't like...who?...oh...Jar Jar Binks. Alert: Jar Jar Bashing is one of the more popular things in the world right now. Very paradoxical on your part.
I have always been a big Star Wars fan, but never considered myself a fanatic. I just saw TPM for the first time this past Thursday. TPM was so good it made me INTERESTED in the internet sites! After all the critic bashing, I'm just stunned how this movie has affected me like the other three. TPM has renewed my interest all over again. All the criticisms are surface level. Ask yourself this-anybody, how many of you who have criticized the movie will not absolutely see it again in any form. I promise everyone, TPM will be seen over and over again in various forms. I loved the ESB and I have nostalgic feelings about that movie, but I cant deny TPM is the best of all four!
Tom C, I agree with alot of your points (I'm often found defending Hamill's acting in AHN). But I think it has great cinematography. Watch the scene where Vader says "Now your highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base." one of the greatest filmed scenes ever. But that's for another thread.
As for the acting. Jake Lloyd was fine, nothing great but believable and damn good for a child actor. I can see how "Yippee" would bother one, but it really doesn't bother me.
Panaka wasn't that great but he wasn't any worse than Major Derlin or General Dodonna (maybe I should compare Sio Bibble to those guys instead).
Alot of the smaller roles had fine actors, Terrence Stamp was cool (as always), Pernilla August was great. Ric Olie was altogether cheesy, but everyone seems to love him for it.
But my favorite minor characters were all cg. Watto, Boss Nass, Captain Tarpals, Sebulba. Who can complain about any of them? They were awesome characters. All of them were over the top, but that's what I like most about them.
And Ian McDiarmid (in my opinion) gave the greatest performance in any SW film yet. He was incredible. The scene where he goes from "A suprise to be sure." to "I will be chancellor." is awesome.
Altogether I think episode-i has better acting and much better minor characters the original trilogy.
I think one of the major problems people have with it (wether they realize it or not) is that it lacks an unlikely hero(like the farm boy Luke who dreams of greater things). Actually in TPM Jar Jar's the unlikely hero and Jake Lloyd's doing all the dreaming. But the point is that the real heroes (the jedi) are far from "unlikely" they're pretty much one-dimensional super-heroes ("the guardians of peace and justice"). Which doesn't really have the mass appeal that characters like Luke do, but in my opinion the one-dimensional super-hero is under-used and under-rated and just alot more fun!
And the other big problem (people are vocal about this one) is that it is more kid-friendly. You're damn right it is! And it's better that way. It has more energy and it's more fun that way. The more evil and intense the villain is the more kid-friendly the rest of the film has to be to balance it out and keep it from being taken too seriously. And more importantly to ensure that the film lifts the spirits and captures the imagination. Somehow this is what makes it a space opera and keeps it from being a generic film.
As much as I would love for my thread to end on that note, I must bring it to the top so that others can read it.
QuiGonJinn: Don't get me wrong. I think ANH and ESB are masterpieces, especially visually. But I have no doubts there are some major flaws, especially in ANH. Lucas is far from a perfect filmmaker. And if you read "Making of Episode One," he readily admits he's not the greatest director and that writing doesn't come easy even though he greatly enjoys it. But my God, the strengths surely outnumber the flaws by inordinate amounts (as proven, in my opinion, in TPM).
As for Mark Hamill: I actually think he's fun to watch in ANH. I don't think he's bad per se. He's just not excellent or noteworthy, much like Jake Lloyd (who I find quite fun) in my opinion. But the "I am your father scene" is, to me, his worst scene in the trilogy, followed closely by his Captain Kirk impersonation during the "Leia, you are my sister" scene in ROTJ.
As for acting in TPM as a whole, I thought it was good overall, excellent in spots (McGregor, Neeson and especially McDairmid).
have to bring it back up.
The Deuce is back in the house!!!
Where you been Deux Deux!
Hey, Deucey, I thought this was supposed to be an attack thread?
What happened to your "pitiful, little band"???
Been runnin' around in the real world for awhile...DD you should try it. http://18.104.22.168/forum/
My problem seems to be that I am not "distinguished" enough to merit support.
No support? Bah. We'll end that theory.
The trouble with this thread is that it's so damn serious. And when we get serious about TPM, we start the same arguments in circles, we like it, they don't, we're swept away by the ineffable Star-Wars-ness, they're finding the whole thing to be not up to proper Star Wars par.
Who needs it?
Please respond and give a theory as to a counter-attack.
You know what they're doing on the Basher's forum? They're having fun. We should do the same.
So, strike up the band! Break out the bottles of Chateau de Chassely! Let's get some TPM celebration up in here! Deuce, it's your thread, you can play host, if you're tuxedo's...ahem...back from the shop. I'll buttle.
Now, fancy ingraved invitations or just crap with poisoned glue?
I think that there IS a lack of humor on this thread....don't know why, maybe because we don't have mindless bashers to base our skits on...Where is Darthritis when you need him?
I am bringing this thread back because I read in some thread about people looking for a supporter thread...
Duece22, and anyone else who is interested, go here, i think you'll get a kick out of it. http://22.214.171.124/forum/Forum1/HTML/013393.html http://126.96.36.199/forum/Forum1/HTML/013393.html
I don't agree with that thread, the bashers could say the same about us....
Tom C, only the first paragraph of my last post was aimed at you. The rest was to Lazy Jedi.
The reason why there is no good discussion on here is because the bashers prefer to role play. So the can make-believe they have a worth-while opinion.
[This message has been edited by QuiGonJinn (edited 07-18-1999).]
No, QuiGon, the bashers prefer to role-play because it's fun. A hell of a lot more fun than bickering over points that will never be agreed on.
Accept this truth:
We will never convince them. They will never convince us.
Can we move on and start to enjoy ourselves?
People, this is Star Wars. What level of dishonor are we bringing to it by making asses of ourselves over it?
Now Deuce, get that tux on! http://188.8.131.52/forum/
Lookey what I found, my old thread?!:
*blows the dust off*
Lets just bring it back to the top, shall we
Neither TPM, nor any SW needs 'support' (except @ the bo, and video rentals); it has no needs ('critiqueing', maybe, but, Arsenal 2.0 said all best on that distinction, + until II & III come out, all 'critiqueing' may be moot). Bashers will 'bash', what can I say? Other than, why do THEY bother? Anyhoo, I believe the 'best' defense from them is to let them 'wither' away without giving attention to them: follow 'the Master Jedi': GL. What, when NOT 'questioned' on the critics, has he had to say about/to them? N-O-T-H-I-N-G! Let them say what they say, then, let them wear 'egg-on-their-face' later, as GL did with Each of the original movies. 'Course, if you feel like arguing/debating, go on Their thread/turf and practice 'debating'; but, -------'defense, the Force needs not; time waste, problem-makers do; you're Force, improve you must'.