***The Official Obi-Wan Kenobi Eps II & III Discussion and Speculation Thread: Part 5***

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by naw ibo, May 13, 2000.

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  1. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I would go even farther and suggest that there are times when Anakin is out and out trying to antagonize his master and get a reaction out of him, although I don't think that scene with Padme was one of them. He was gunning to impress her and didn't consider what Obi-Wan was saying, then tried to dismiss him when he got called.

    I totally agree with this. I think he is trying to antagonize him. Doesn't the thought of that just break your heart for Obi-Wan and even on some level for Anakin, because he's completely missing on what he can learn from Obi-Wan and more importantly on how much Obi-Wan cares about him.

    For whatever reason(and we know there are many) Anakin just has a totally conflicted inner relationship with Obi-Wan and I think it ties very much into Anakin's jealousy of him.(eek...I'm so glad we don't have to "wonder" about that anymore--not that I think we ever really did--so nice to have confirmation on that point).

    Naw's description of the books,especially the Qui-Gon parts, now perversely make me WANT to read it to see what she means...hey, you're lining Watson's purse for her here, Naw. Sweet dreams tonight, babe!


    No, no...I'm not doing it to line her purse, darn it! ;) I'm doing so other people don't have to buy them.
  2. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    when Anakin is out and out trying to antagonize his master and get a reaction out of him

    Polaris Fett I think "antagonize" is too strong a word. During parts of the Coruscant chase, Anakin is definitely trying to rile Obi-Wan, tease him and get a reaction out of him. In front of Padme, his head is so full of Padme and trying to impress her with his grown-upness and power, that he comes across as blatantly disrespectful to Obi-Wan. But again, this is not meant to antagonize Obi-Wan, but is directed towards Padme.

    Anakin just has a totally conflicted inner relationship with Obi-Wan

    Very well put, naw ibo. I think there is love and affection but NO respect. The respect comes slowly in the OT. Plus, there is this inferiority/superiority complex that Anakin has w.r.t. Obi-Wan. He feels himself superior because of his raw Force power, but inferior because he hasn't yet attained the level of Force CONTROL that Obi-Wan has.

    On another topic, I was just thinking of Qui-Gon meeting Anakin for the first time, and telling him he has Jedi abilities, and telling everyone else that he is the Chosen One etc. Contrast this with Obi-Wan meeting Luke in ANH: he doesn't fill Luke's head with "wow so much talent!" nonsense and never gives the boy a swollen head from the get go. He only tells Luke that it is noble to serve the Rebels as a Jedi and should consider getting trained.
  3. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    George with a Satan, er Santa hat? The Force help us all...


    Polaris, I didn't notice that the other day. LOL! I don't see any horns but I guess they could be under the hat. :D

    I think there is love and affection but NO respect. The respect comes slowly in the OT.

    True. He doesn't respect him because he doesn't realize, or at least won't admit to himself, what it takes to do what he does. It ties into Vader's attitude, he has to prove Obi-Wan a "failure" because if he doesn't then Vader himself is one.

  4. OnlyOneKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 3
    One point I'd like to add also is that people are constantly saying Obi-Wan is too harsh on Anakin, that he doesn't really care for him. It's obvious in AOTC that Obi-Wan does care - the scene where Obi-Wan says "You look tired," and Anakin explains he's been having nightmares about his mother. Obi-Wan says "Dreams pass in time." Some think this is a cold thing to say, but I interepret it differently. What he's trying to say is "don't worry, things will be okay"

    Also, when Obi-Wan is on Geonosis and tries to contact Anakin on Naboo, but cannot locate him there, he does say "I do hope he is alright."

    He also addresses his concerns with Mace and Yoda... "I am concerned for my padawan, he is not ready for this assignment on his own."

    Obi-Wan also gives Anakin praise when needed. "Good call my young padawan!" When Anakin tells the clone pilot to aim above the fuel cells.

    "my young padawan" and "my very young apprentice" are not necessarily degrading remarks either. Lots of parents have nicknames for their children, and a father could call his sibling "son" or "daugher". Obi-Wan is a father figure to Anakin. At least he doesn't call him Ani... that is the one nickname Anakin doesn't like!!
  5. OnlyOneKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 3
  6. OnlyOneKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 3
  7. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Hi all, boy it gets dead around these boards around Christmas, don't it. ;)

    OnlyOneKenobi, you can sure say that again(your name I mean :) ). There is only one. Hi!

    I agree with you. I don't think Obi-Wan was unnecessarily harsh on Anakin and I do believe it was shown that he cared a great deal about him. I thought Ewan did a great job of showing the care that underlied the frustration, which in fact was part of the reason for it--if he didn't care, he wouldn't have shown any frustration. In the scene in Padme's apartment when Anakin starts going off about investigating, etc, it always felt to me like Obi-Wan so didn't want to do that, the whole "this hurts me more than it does you" thing. :)

    On the OT front, I saw The Two Towers today. Great, loved it. A bit different from the books, not really sure why they felt the need to make it seem like Faramir was seriously tempted to turn in the ring to his father, but very exciting. That Gollum is something else, wow. I thought in the last film that Viggo Mortensen made a fine, handsome Aragorn, but you know, I think he actually seemed better looking in this film. I wonder if they sort of tweaked his look a little bit for the second film, because in the books, it is sort of implied that Aragorn starts seeming more kingly and handsome as it gets closer and closer to the end. Anyway, I enjoyed it.
  8. Ewanfan51 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    Naw

    It does seem very quiet during the holidays. Probabely all the last minute shopping and the rise in visiting friends and just all that business.
    I never thought Obi Wan was too harsh with Anakin. I felt he was a bit on the lenient side. A much more brotherly relationship, almost friendly, very different than the one he shared with his own master.
    I saw Two Towers at the midnight showing as I did AOTC.
    I am in the minority and don't see the physical attraction that others do to Aragorn. All that stringy greasy hair puts me off, I won't go into the stubble he wears as a beard. I love and admire the character but I always found the elves more to my taste. Having now seen both films I still find Legolas and Frodo the most appealing. I love Sam's character, he is just so loyal and selfless. Loved the movie, I don't get the LOTR and SW division that I find on the board. You can't really compare the two films. Very different movies.
    Obi Wan is still my favorite character in film today.
    Gollum was cool, he did however look very CGI. I thought they did a great job with him. The speed they filmed the battles at did much to hide any flaws in the CGI. It also drew attention to them if one knows what to look for.
  9. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Yes, it IS quiet around here. I think Christmas shopping/preparations and also lack of spoilers for EIII. [face-grin]

    EwanFan Haven't seen TTT yet, but will go shortly. I agree with you about Aragorn though; all that stringy hair put me off a little in FotR. I am somewhat scared of TTT: I heard that there is a lot of Arwen. I didn't like Liv Tyler as Arwen, so I am apprehensive. Well, I'll post more after I see it.

    I saw RotJ again recently and was stuck by certain similarities in Luke's duel and Obi-Wan's duel in TPM. Though I had never thought about it along these lines before.

    In TPM, Obi-Wan, in grief over Qui-Gon's fatal injury, taps into the darkside, but it leaves him hanging on for dear life. He is then able to overcome the dark side and only then defeat the Sith. This also marks the fact that he passes his Jedi trials and becomes a Knight.

    In a nice parallel to RotJ, Luke's confronting Vader are his trials (according to Yoda). He fights with the dark side, due to his attachment for Leia and fear for her safety; however, only when he renounces the dark side, and embraces the light again, does he defeat the Sith. Vader is defeated, so that Anakin can finally come back; this in turn, totally annihilates the Sith as Anakin kills the Emperor. Of course, Luke passes his final trial to become a full Jedi just as Obi-Wan did at the end of TPM. The circle is complete. Anyone agree?
  10. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry, I'm still here. I've just been lurking, Xmas season be d----ed, but everyone says everything much better than I...

    Not seen TTT yet, it was a feeding frenzy this last weekend and I wanted to dodge the Clearasil crowd opening night, but with the holidays going on...I'm shooting for next weekend.

    Well, I see from everyone's comments on TTT that Aragorn still hasn't found the soap.**sigh** Yes, I commented earlier on FOTR that I'm taken with the denizens of Middle Earth that aren't human. Humans just look dirty and greasy and why an elf would fall in love with a dirty faced child...how old is she anyway? Compared to Aragorn? [shakes head] Cradle-robber. ;)

    Obi-Wan has yet to be beat as my favorite, noble cinematic character...though Patrick Stewart's character in 'Excaliber' comes close... :D

    Please don't mess it up, GL!

    Hey, I've read EU the JA/JQ series and the October issue of SW Insider backs JA as the 'true' background of Obi-Wan's Temple/early padawan experience. Does that mean we're stuck with it? :mad:
  11. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Just a quick pop-in to say hello and wish everyone who celebrates a Merry Christmas! :)

    Also, the SW Insider is not the be-all, end-all, so feel free to ignore it, Jovieve, I know I do :D --they are very EU supportive and always try to integrate EU into their theories and information. The few things Lucas has been fairly involved in which have mentioned Obi-Wan's background(TPM novelization, The Approaching Storm, etc) have contradicted some things in the JA and quite frankly, I'll take them over Jude Watson anyday. For instance, it is made quite clear in both of them that Obi-Wan has NO memory whatsoever of his birth family and has no particular interest in them. In the TPM novelization it also states that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have had a relationship for twenty years, which means they would have met when Obi-Wan was five years old. The amount of time Obi-Wan has been padawaned to him roughly matches the JA--it was a dozen years, which would have made him 13. But the point is, according to TPM novelization(blink and you miss it, it's only a sentence), Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon knew each other personally for years before Obi-Wan actually became his padawan--which directly contradicts the JA.
  12. jedi-girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 4
    Happy Holidays!

    I found a "Star Wars tarot" - it is unfinished and unpublished but thought you might enjoy having a look. :)

    I think the younger Obi-wan would make a wonderful King of Swords "creative, inspiring, charismatic, bold" . Obi-wan from ANH is portrayed as the "Hermit" which definitely fits his role on Tatooine.
  13. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Happy Holidays, everyone! Have fun and be safe!

    Actually, I would take the films over any other source any day. For example, in the TPM novel, it says that Qui-Gon's master had thought, in his four hundred years of teaching, that QG was the best swordsman in the order. Now, Dooku may be old, but he is hardly four hundred!

    One aspect of JA is that apprentices are only taken around age 13. Is this truly true? What is so magical about 13?

    I saw TTT today. It's very good, but IMO, FOTR was much better. Aragorn is looking quite "kingly" here and I think Viggo M's acting is better too. I thought the Helms's Deep battle was way too long. Gollum is excellent CGI, but his "evil sneakiness" has been lost a bit. And, for me, most sad of all, one of my favorite characters in the LOTR books, Faramir, has had his noble character completely butchered. :_|

    Gandalf the White reminded me of spirit Obi-Wan very strongly, except that Gandalf the White gets into the thick of battle, unlike Obi-Wan.
  14. obiwanluvr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Happy Holidays, everyone!! :)

    Haven't seen TT yet, but I plan to fairly soon. I work at the local theater that is playing it, and I am hearing good things about it. I may enjoy this movie, but it won't be the same as watching AOTC and experiencing Ewan as Obi-Wan, of course . . . [face_love]
  15. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Naw Yes, I saw that line in TPM book, but you never know with GL. Despite what he says, he IS pulling this stuff out of his a$$ and it's showing. I'm with you then, and will just ignore the Insider's idea of Obi-Wan's background. Thanks.

    Jedi_girl: Wow, what a great idea! I love the idea of Star Wars tarot...and why not? Always in motion is the future. You need to stay on top of it! ;)

    Forever_Jedi: Gandalf the White reminded me of spirit Obi-Wan very strongly, except that Gandalf the White gets into the thick of battle, unlike Obi-Wan.

    LOL! That's essentially the introduction Empire magazine made of Gandalf the White's reappearance "Did you think Obi-Wan Kenobi was the only one capable of coming back?" Excuse me if I paraphrase. :D

    Happy Holidays to all and to all a goodnight!
  16. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Hi, all! So good to see this thread going strong! :)

    It's fun to see how all things LotR get compared to SW all the time. The heading for Empire Magazine's Two Towers special was 'It is a dark time for the Rebellion...', hehe. And mags constantly cites how you should think TESB in contrast to ANH when you compare the two Rings movies. Ah, it seems that SW is the measure of cool and good, no matter what. ;)

    I also remembered the bit about Jinn's master being over 400 years old, as it was stated in the TPM novel. I'm sure Terry Brooks had no idea at this point that Lee would be cast as this character in the next film, but the important thing is that Jinn's master is established as thinking of Qui-Gon as his greatest pupil, and I'm sure that would have been what Lucas wanted out of it. He must have known by then that Dooku would be prominent in AOTC. As for the age, Dooku could easily be 431 or something in AOTC. Hey, it's Star Wars! :)

    And just to join in on praising Obi-Wan; I agree with much of the discussion here lately. I do think he cares for Anakin, and I do think that this is clear in the film. However, Obi-Wan should not be a perfect mentor in this movie. That would ruin an important plot point of the saga - the fact that Kenobi himself thinks of his training of Anakin as a bit of a failure. We should see in these films that the master and the apprentice don't really understand each other 100%, or it would not seem believable that a rift could open up between them.

    For my money, Lucas did a great job with this. And Ewan is completely stunning as Obi-Wan. Oh, casting joy. :)
  17. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    It's Christmas day, and there's inches of snow on the ground! Everything looks beautiful!

    Jovieve That's essentially the introduction Empire magazine made of Gandalf the White's reappearance "Did you think Obi-Wan Kenobi was the only one capable of coming back?"

    That's neat; I didn't know. You know, I never thought of a comparison between Obi-Wan's spirit and Gandalf the White from reading the LOTR books. I have read the books and all of Tolkien, many, many times, long before the films. In the books, Gandalf's return was left very mysterious, and anyway, he is supposed to be an immortal being. But in the movie, we do get a somewhat different picture. Gandalf apparently truly dies, is drawn into a void (THE FORCE??), and then it is decided that he should return to complete his task (the FORCE sending him back?) When he gives the explanation of his return to Aragorn and the others, it is quite clear that P. Jackson WAS influenced a trifle by SW back from the OT days! He didn't HAVE to EXPLAIN Gandalf's return or he could have come up with a different explanation!

    About Qui-Gon being the best swordsman in the order, interestingly in the TPM novel, during the duel, Qui-Gon knows that Obi-Wan has not reached his full potential yet, but also knows that OW will one day be better than himself. Kinda neat!
  18. Old Juan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 1999
    star 4
    I think it's important to clarify a couple of things. Yeah, we shouldn't see Obi-Wan being a perfect mentor. He admits as much in RoTJ, but we must take into consideration that there is much more inner guilt speaking there than there is genuine accountability. Qui-Gon was hardly the perfect teacher and yet Obi-Wan came out fine considering. Even one of Yoda's...who by all accounts is supposed to the greatests of Jedi Masters ultimately went to the darkside.

    I would like to make a little correction on Qui-Gon's prowess with the lightsabre. The novel states that he was "one" of the best in the order, not "thee" best. Which means there were other Jedi Knights and Masters during that time who were just as good if not better than Jinn.

    Obi-Wan has a great deal of respect for other Jedi Masters, and often turns to their wisdom and experiecne as much as he would his own. This normally wouldn't be a problem and one could easily applaud him for it, but unfortuneately sometimes he lets other's wisdom and knowledge overide his own instincts which we've been shown thus far in the prequals to be spot on. He should have "fought" with Yoda and Windu on the Anakin issue more. Obi-Wan was right that Anakin wasn't ready to be on his own. But he let his respect for Master Yoda and Master Windu subdue his objections. You can see in the OT that Obi-Wan learned from this mistake. He wouldn't let up on Yoda until he agreed to continue Luke's training. Obi-Wan knew that Luke could save Anakin whereas Yoda was ready to to right Luke off as "too much like his father, and too old" to begin training.
  19. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    forever_jedi;

    Actually, I think the movie describes Gandalf's fall and rebirth exactly like the Tolkien books do. The difference in the film is that Gandalf himself puts exact words on what has happened. This is really explained in the books as well, The Lord of the Rings and its appendixes and Unfinished Tales, but not always from the mouth of Gandalf himself. Gandalf does say in the book that he fell long and deep, fought and finally defeated his enemy, and was sent back naked. Gandalf's line "Yes...I was Gandalf" is also part of the film's dialogue, to my delight. So I think Jackson has dug the explanation out from the Tolkien library and put it in Gandalf's dialogue, more than he has looked to Star Wars. Obi-Wan isn't really brought back as a physical being.
  20. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Hello, hello and hopefully everyone had a fine holiday. :) Hi to some old familiar faces(Adali-Kiri, Old Juan, etc). I'll start with the Off topic bit first:

    Gandalf apparently truly dies, is drawn into a void (THE FORCE??), and then it is decided that he should return to complete his task (the FORCE sending him back?) When he gives the explanation of his return to Aragorn and the others, it is quite clear that P. Jackson WAS influenced a trifle by SW back from the OT days! He didn't HAVE to EXPLAIN Gandalf's return or he could have come up with a different explanation!


    Gandalf's explanation for what happened is in the books, it's just spread out, you get a little bit here and a little bit there and it all adds up to basically what he said. I specifically remember getting the idea that Gandalf was sent back because his task was not yet finished on Middle Earth in the books. I also remember he and the Balrog fell and fell and he defeated it before he "died" and was sent back as Gandalf the White.

    Actually, I would take the films over any other source any day

    Well that's a given(or at least it should be, I can't understand people who are like "The films got it wrong, it says this in the books...." LOL!) :D .

    Also, as I recall, it specifies that it was Qui-Gon's sabre master who was over 400 years old, it doesn't say his master, and then it points out that he himself has taught Obi-Wan sabre, which could lead one to believe that one's master isn't always one's primary sabre teacher, although not uncommon for them to be one and the same. Which is a perfectly acceptable idea to me, a student may show more or different proficiencies and be served better by having outside instruction in sabre as well as his own master. However, it does seem to make the point of Qui-Gon's sabre master and his master not necessarily being one and the same. So there really isn't any contradiction with Dooku being Qui-Gon's master and Qui-Gon's sabre master being over 400 years old. And as Old Juan points out, it doesn't say he is THE best, just that he is one of the best and that he, as forever_jedi says, clearly believes Obi-Wan is not far from surpassing his own abilities and will be better than he ever was.

    Despite what he says, he IS pulling this stuff out of his a$$ and it's showing. I'm with you then, and will just ignore the Insider's idea of Obi-Wan's background. Thanks.


    You are welcome, Jovieve. And I agree, he is pretty much making it up as he goes along. For instance, the reason no Dooku in TPM or even the novelization--GL had no idea he existed yet. He still wasn't sure he wasn't going to use a female Sith when he started writing AOTC. Which I would have loved. In fact I think he should have made the "new" Sith female and made HER Qui-Gon's master--LOL!! That would have been cool, a highly intelligent and evil yet formerly greatly respected and very powerful female Jedi Master. But I do believe that would have been entirely beyond GL's ability to do(and I do think the man's a genius but I do believe that's beyond him). I feel better going into EP III than I did going into EP II but I still fear for poor Obi-Wan's reputation as a great and strong Jedi before GL gets through with him. :)

    I agree with what everyone is saying about how Star Wars is still the measuring stick against which all others are measured. It's funny to see how in trying to diss Star Wars, some people just show how very important it is--because it is the measuring stick against which they are using to compare.

    He should have "fought" with Yoda and Windu on the Anakin issue more.

    Good point Old Juan(always nice when you stop in for a visit :) ). But would they have listened even if he stamped his feet and held his breath? ;) I don't think they would have. I think the only reason Yoda even gives in ESB after MUCH cajoling by Obi-Wan is because of the events of the PT and his twenty years on Dagobah thinking about it, not to mention that Obi-Wan by t
  21. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Adali-Kiri, naw ibo About Gandalf: I guess nowadays I just have too much Obi-Wan on the brain. It's just that when I read the books, I never put his coming back as similar to Obi-Wan's. In the film, actual images of his fight and death are shown, which were not presented as clearly in the books. Also, knowing that Gandalf was one of the messengers of the "Valar", the Istari, I had always thought that he could not die! In the film, when he really died, came back surrounded by almost a halo (at first), I was immediately reminded of Obi-Wan. But you are right, he is physically reincarnated in a slightly different form, whereas Obi-Wan came back as his exact same self, only in spirit form.

    Aboot saber masters: it is quite likely that Qui-Gon did not learn saber techniques from Dooku. In TPM, he and Obi-Wan fight with the same form, which is the same as Yoda's, but completely different from Dooku's. So, perhaps Yoda taught Qui-Gon? I don't know. It's quite likely that Qui-Gon taught Obi-Wan, since their styles were so silmilar, before Obi-Wan taught himself a difefernt form in AotC.

    Old Juan I agree with you regarding Obi-Wan's being too respectful to his elders. I think this is indeed his primary problem in the PT, which he has overcome by the OT. I think I posted (a few pages back) that just as Anakin has too much confidence, Obi-Wan has too much diffidence. This makes him trust his own judgement less and give in to his elders' wishes against his own gut feelings. This is how he got into training Anakin in TPM in the first place. In AotC, he should have faught more to keep Anakin with himself. As naw ibo says, Mace and Yoda may not have listened, but that doesn't mean Obi-Wan should have given in so easily. Perhaps, in this regard, a little bit of Qui-Gon's "maverickness" would have been good; Obi-Wan is too straight an arrow. Ideally that is not a problem, but that does mean that he gets taken advantage of, to some extent. I do believe that this is part of his regret later on: that he should have "faught" for his beliefs regarding Anakin's training much more than he did.

    I am pretty sure Yoda realizes his culpability in this regard by the OT and trusts Obi-wan more. But the OT Obi is also very confident in his own judgement.

    Adali-kiri That would ruin an important plot point of the saga - the fact that Kenobi himself thinks of his training of Anakin as a bit of a failure.

    That plot point was abandoned, for the most part, in TPM, and even more so in AotC. Now, it's more that Obi-Wan suffers from a perpetual guilt complex!

    By the way, I just thought I would mention that the SW calendar that I got free (with DVD purchase) has Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on the "January" page. Qui-Gon is described as espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think - use your instincts." Obi-Wan's description starts..."A LEGENDARY Jedi Knight ....." Brings warm feelings to my heart!
  22. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Perhaps, in this regard, a little bit of Qui-Gon's "maverickness" would have been good

    Bite thy tongue ;) The less like his master the better. I can't see a single good thing that came out of Qui-Gon's "maverickness"--every single thing he brought together failed to hold and ended up leading to destruction(Obi-Wan and Anakin, Anakin and the Jedi, Anakin and Padme, Jar Jar and the rest of the galaxy, etc ;) ). And Luke and Leia wouldn't have been necessary if Qui-Gon hadn't messed stuff up to begin with by deciding, "Hey the Force must have made a mistake having the Chosen One born outside of the Republic so he wouldn't be found by the Jedi and trained the right way, so obviously it wants me to just fix it up now". :D He *might* have been meant to help that nice little slave boy win his freedom but then he just kept going and going and going. He was right about Anakin's being the Chosen One, but no one really questioned that, they were all pretty much willing to say "He may very well be the Chosen One but..." :) .

    I don't think it was diffidence that had to do with Obi-Wan's training Anakin, it was grief and the way it has a tendency to at least temporarily wash away the dead person's bad points, so that suddenly Qui-Gon became "right" in his eyes and he just kind of forgot about his own misgivings.

    Qui-Gon's defiance would not have served Obi-Wan well, because Qui-Gon argued from his own pride and that's pretty much it. I don't see the "will of the Force" in anything he did, I see the will of Qui-Gon Jinn. That would just have made them even less likely to listen to Obi-Wan's misgivings in the long run, if they were ever going to listen to him at all--they'd be like "ho hum like master, like padawan" and block it out and do what they wanted anyway.

    Besides I don't see them as really being wrong, and neither was Obi-Wan. Anakin wasn't ready but it was also necessary for him to be given this mission, because there was nothing more Obi-Wan could do, or any of them could do, to make Anakin more ready. More time wouldn't have made Anakin more likely to listen to what Obi-Wan was trying to teach him. Anakin's fall has terrible consequences, that's the effect of his being the Chosen One, but no one at this point except Anakin himself could or can really stop it. To wait would be to simply delay the inevitable, whatever Anakin decides that inevitable is.

    Obi-Wan's description starts..."A LEGENDARY Jedi Knight ....." Brings warm feelings to my heart!

    Yeah, that's nice, always nice to hear good things about our noble Knight. :) Too bad we aren't really given any reason to think that's actually the case in the films.
  23. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Bite thy tongue. The less like his master the better.

    Oops, sorry Milady!

    My intention was not to say that Obi-wan should become like his master. He is not, in the PT or even in the OT. It is remarkable how different the OT Obi-Wan is from the Qui-Gon of TPM, even though they are at similar ages. All I meant to say is that perhaps he should have fought for his won beliefs a bit more as Qui-Gon relentlessly did.

    As for Qui-Gon in TPM, I have to wait until EIII to understand what he did right and what he did wrong. Apparently he was both right and wrong. I tend to think that he was supposed to free Anakin from slavery AND bring Padme and him together. (He actually completely ignores that aspect himself). Somehow, I feel that Luke and Leia (if we believe NJO) are important; if not for redeeming Vader and cleaning up the mess, then somehow, for the future of the order. Luke just seems born to be a Jedi, and a very legendary Jedi at that.

    I do believe that Yoda and Mace were wrong to send Anakin on a solo assignment with Padme. Yes, he's had ten years of training, but he NEEDS more. Most probably due to his late start. If he is not ready to face temptation (Padme) and overcome it, then they just have to wait till he IS ready. I feel that Mace, especially, was trying to push ahead with Anakin's training, so that the "Chosen One" would be ready to face whatever. In ESB, both Yoda and Obi-Wan felt that Luke was not ready. I think this is a parallel to AotC where Yoda felt Anakin WAS ready and was wrong.

    Funny how Yoda never once admits he was wrong, in so many things!
  24. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Good to see the 'TPM crowd' around, naw ibo and Old Juan. How time flies, eh? :)


    forever_jedi;

    With due respect, I think that your thoughts on how Obi-Wan should have been more headstrong and trusting himself more when it comes to the training of Anakin actually underlines my point. In the OT Obi-Wan regrets mistakes he made in training Anakin, or possibly the mistake of training Anakin at all. As you state, in the PT Obi-Wan is portrayed as making some mistakes in the training of Anakin. One example of yours is very good - Obi-Wan should have opposed his own masters on the Council more, like Qui-Gon would have done. I don't see any hint of contradiction between the OT and the PT on this point, and I stand by my earlier comment that having Obi-Wan making (possible) mistakes in the training of Anakin is necessary for the enduring plot point of how Obi-Wan, not entirely mistaken, believes that he made mistakes in Anakin's training. A perfect Obi-Wan would make Anakin's rebellious acting less believable. There needed to be tension in their relationship, and having Obi-Wan being a bit too conservative is a good way of writing this, as it also underlines the general problems of the Republic and the Jedi Order in the face of the Sith threat. As it is now, Obi-Wan and Anakin are the personification of the central Star Wars Saga conflict. Brilliant, imo.

    In any case, I don't agree that TPM abandoned the plot point of Kenobi regretting mistakes in training Anakin. I honestly don't see that at all. Imo, it's very well taken care of. Well, points of view, and all that. ;)


    naw ibo;

    I agree that it's hard to tell if Qui-Gon was truly righteous or merely self-righteous in his actions, but there is often a fine line between the two. One thing is for sure - neither the good nor the bad bits about in the Star Wars Saga would ever have happened without him. I think. ;)

    However, I do not agree with you on the point of Obi-Wan being shown as a legendary Jedi Knight. Read on ---

    I'll conclude by agreeing with forever_jedi that having Obi-Wan described as a "legendary Jedi Knight" in the calendar is most thrilling! And indeed, this is the Jedi that fought and defeated the first Sith Lord in a millenium and helped resolve the battle of Naboo, the Jedi Knight that proved himself worthy of the Council's trust when it came to investigating mysteries surrounding the Separatist crisis, the Jedi Knight who became a great leader in the Clone Wars, and the Jedi Knight who championed the training of Luke Skywalker (despite master Yoda's reluctance) and succesfully initiated the young boy's Jedi training before finally helping him along to victory after his own passing. A legend. No questions. :)
  25. Jedi Knight Seyrah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 1999
    star 3
    If Obi-wan gets anything from Qui-Gon (as Yoda implies he did in Episode I), it would be because Obi-wan has a humble opinion of his own abilities and always will. For instance, he is firm about training Anakin because a) he said he would and b) Qui-Gon thought it was critically important, so there must be something to it. So you're right, forever jedi - Obi-wan doesn't fight for his own beliefs. He defers. "What if" is kind of interesting, though. What if he'd been firm to Qui-Gon? "No, master. The boy is dangerous. I'll have no part in training him." "Sorry, Master Windu, but no. Anakin's not ready for this assignment. He'll stay with me, and go to Kamino." Etc.

    What would then have happened?

    (Yes, I know, Obi-wan wouldn't be the modest, adaptable Jedi we all know and love. But besides that.)
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