***The Official Obi-Wan Kenobi Eps II & III Discussion and Speculation Thread: Part 5***

Yes, he's had ten years of training, but he NEEDS more. Most probably due to his late start. If he is not ready to face temptation (Padme) and overcome it, then they just have to wait till he IS ready.

As I said, I don't believe more training would have done him any good. Not for what this trial was about. Someone on another thread said something VERY insightful, because it was nice and concise and pretty much sums it up:

He can't be encouraged without feeding his ego, and he can't be chastised without fueling his anger

This is why it wouldn't have made a real difference--at this point, Anakin has to make the decision himself of how he is going to react to those things. More training would not have changed his obsession with Padme, more training would not have made him more humble, etc. It really is all on Anakin, and in many ways his own behavior and his own attitudes have forced it to be that way--because no matter what anyone else who could teach him does it either feeds his ego or fuels his anger, unless he CHOOSES to learn. And he doesn't.

Anakin was going to face his tests and he'd have to overcome his problems or not, ultimately there is never a "right time"--right now he has everything he needs to make the right choices(Luke certainly had much less). He chooses not to and more training wouldn't have changed that, because it is a choice. The very fact that he is able to finally make that choice after years as Vader proves he could have done it all along if he'd simply chosen to.

As for Qui-Gon in TPM, I have to wait until EIII to understand what he did right and what he did wrong. Apparently he was both right and wrong.

I don't. The only thing Lucas has ever said Qui-Gon was right about was that Anakin was the Chosen One and no one really argued that point with him anyway, they were all pretty much, as I said before, "He may very well be the Chosen One but...". I think the only reason Luke and Leia are "needed" is because Anakin can't hack it. If Anakin had been able to do what he was supposed to do without being delayed by his side trip to the Dark Side, they wouldn't have been needed. I certainly don't believe the NJO--its all I can do to force myself to read the prequel EU(and that's just hope springing eternal more than anything else, besides, it's fun complaining about it when that hope is dashed ).

Luke wasn't anymore *born* to be a Jedi than Anakin or anyone is--Luke just managed to overcome his weaknesses alot better. Even Obi-Wan wasn't "born" to be a Jedi, he just overcame what he had to in order to be one, just like every other Jedi does. It's about digging deep enough to find the strength within yourself.

As you state, in the PT Obi-Wan is portrayed as making some mistakes in the training of Anakin.

So far the only mistake I see is training Anakin to be a Jedi at all, by anyone, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, Mace...whoever. Other than that, I think he's doing as well as anyone could. No one--the very best of masters, just like the very best of parents--is perfect. I don't think not arguing with Mace and Yoda is a mistake, because I don't think it would have made a bit of difference.

One thing that is made quite clear in the PT is the NO ONE listens to Obi-Wan, whether he argues or not. It doesn't matter what he does, he's ignored. His master disregards him, his padawan disregards him, Mace and Yoda disregard him. This is whether he argues or whether he tries "calm, cool reasoning".


I agree that it's hard to tell if Qui-Gon was truly righteous or merely self-righteous in his actions, but there is often a fine line between the two.

I don't think it's hard to tell at all. From the second Qui-Gon said "These Federation types are cowards, the negotiations will be short", I started having a negative opinion of him and all he did the entire film was convince me more and more that my first impression of him was correct--he was self-righteous, narrow-mindedand totally inflexible(even more so than the Co

 

Adali-Kiri About the plot point of Obi-Wan blaming himself for mistakes in Anakin's training: the impression I had from the OT was that Obi-Wan aggressively wanted to train Anakin himself and not let Yoda do so. That is my POV. I may be wrong. In the PT, it is clear that Yoda did not want to train Anakin at all. Also, in the PT it emerges that Obi-Wan's primary mistake was to train Anakin in the first place against his own better judgment. It is also apparent that many other people, more so than Obi-wan, were to blame for Anakin's Fall. Including Anakin himself. In the RotJ coversation, Obi-Wan is self-deprecating as usual: he does not blame ANYONE else, including Yoda who Luke knew, and tries to diffuse the blame away from Anakin himself. Though we clearly see in the PT, that Anakin was the type of young man who was destined to fall.

naw ibo About the solo assignment and Anakin's choices, I understand what you are saying. But I still think that because Anakin was away from his mentor, he was easily lured to Tatooine, where his grief showed itself in anger and resulted in the Tusken slaughter. This, in turn, evoked a strange pity on Padme's part and resulted in the wedding. Now, it's true that Anakin has to face his temptation (Padme) at some point. But with the Sith reemergent, the Council should be a little less naive and more alert about a volatile, arrogant padawan. Yes, Anakin needs his ego stoked and is angry when chastised: but this happens mainly in the presence of Padme, and not so much when she is not around. I am not saying for a moment that Anakin is an easy student, and there is no guarantee that he could have ever been persuaded to be a better Jedi. It IS his choice: but he lacks the maturity in AOTC to make the right choice. By the OT, he is very much mature.

So, I still think it was quite foolish on Yoda and Mace's part to separate him from Obi-Wan in such dangerous times and when his master clearly states that he is NOT ready to be alone. One can see that he is surprised and dismayed in the Council chamber when Yoda assigns Anakin his solo job. I am CERTAIN that Anakin would not have killed Tuskens if Obi-Wan was with him when he found his mother. Yes, Obi-Wan is in a no-win situation; perhaps his protestations would never have swayed the Council and angered Anakin more. But he is not out to make Anakin "like" him, only to make him a Jedi Knight. If I were him, I would regret not having been more firm with the Council: it may not have worked, but at least my conscience would say that I did the best I could have.

To some extent, I disagree with you about Qui-Gon and Luke. I agree about Qui-Gon's role being overly amplified in TPM to the detriment of many plots in the entire saga. Yet, I think bringing in a character like that provides a richness to the Jedi order and sets up nice contrasts with Obi-Wan himself. I think Qui-Gon's part may have been more than just identify Anakin as the Chosen One; obviously, unless EIII is out and all the pieces are in, there is no point in arguing this. Since I may be completely wrong. I don't dislike him: I think his character is full of conflicts, a real Jedi with some major problems. I hope EIII WILL clear up some of these issues for me.

About Luke, he is the hero of the second part of the saga, and quite aside from NJO, he is clearly a great Jedi by the end of RotJ. IMHO, he is truly meant to be, and not just as a result of Anakin's side-trip to the dark side. This is one of those things that I believe are left to each of us to interpret differently; I don't believe that EIII will shed any light on this.

"Fell accidently into seperatist plot and got himself captured, resulting "rescue" started the Clone Wars which decimated the Republic and allow Palpatine's rise to power"

Now, now, a little faith here. I can see the history books saying: "At the beginning of the Clone Wars, Kenobi discovered the secret cloners on the remote planet of Kamino. He alerted the Council that the order for the clone army had been placed wi

 

I'm in a good mood tonight for some reason, so I'm in the mood to type.

Yes, Anakin needs his ego stoked and is angry when chastised: but this happens mainly in the presence of Padme, and not so much when she is not around.

This happens all the time, see Palpatine/Anakin scene--see the more than one occassion it is made clear that this is far from the first time Anakin's made many of the same mistakes. Padme simply ends up enabling behavior he's already given to and that doesn't really begin in earnest until they leave Naboo for Tatooine. Also the point being made with that quote is that Anakin takes the ego stroking badly and allows it to feed into a "big head" syndrome, so anything positive makes him more egotistical and anything negative fuels his anger, as in neither one works. And the thing is, when Obi-Wan does say something positive to Anakin, Anakin basically rolls his eyes(ex: gunship with his good shot and when Obi-Wan tells Anakin he needs him, Anakin blows right past it)--he respects Obi-Wan so little that his positive opinion means next to nothing to him, despite his complaints about Obi-Wan's being critical. If he actually valued Obi-Wan as anything other than a path to more power, any positive comments would mean a great deal to him. He, in his arrogance, believes Obi-Wan has become a hinderance to that, so his positive opinion is basically meaningless to Anakin.

His complaints about Obi-Wan's being critical are hot air--the reason Anakin says this is because he doesn't respect Obi-Wan and so anything Obi-Wan says is not going to be taken in a positive manner by Anakin, even when it is positive. With that kind of attitude Anakin will NOT allow himself to be taught by Obi-Wan, because he will not allow himself to take to heart anything Obi-Wan says or even the very good example that Obi-Wan sets for him simply in the way he lives. He can't respect him because to do so would mean to "let go" of what he's convinced himself he wants and will make him happy, power, Padme, even his resentment of Obi-Wan, who he can conveniently blame for what are really his own shortcomings, etc.

I am not saying for a moment that Anakin is an easy student, and there is no guarantee that he could have ever been persuaded to be a better Jedi. It IS his choice: but he lacks the maturity in AOTC to make the right choice. By the OT, he is very much mature.

I'd hope being over 40 years old and having spent half his life in a walking iron lung with mechanical arms and legs would have had some positive effect. Besides, I don't think Anakin/Vader is very mature in the OT at all, he simply isn't whiny anymore. It is hardly mature to go around choking your officers the minute they "fail" you, and when the Millenium Falcon got away I half expected him to stamp his feet. He looks and sounds impressive but in reality, he's actually quite immature. His first truely mature move is when he tosses Palpatine over the side.

The fact is, Anakin was actually pretty much soft balled in terms of this test mission, this should have been relatively easy, from the looks of it all he has to do is resist temptation of a pretty girl for a few days--which just goes to show that waiting for an "easier" time, a less "dangerous" time would be pointless, because anytime, any place in a Jedi's life things can suddenly become very difficult and very complex. Obi-Wan had serious reservations, he clearly made them known. That is all he could do and he did it.

So, I still think it was quite foolish on Yoda and Mace's part to separate him from Obi-Wan in such dangerous times and when his master clearly states that he is NOT ready to be alone.

But these are dangerous times, when aren't they dangerous times? If they waited for times not to be dangerous, they'd be waiting forever--that's why they go through such difficult training, that's why "it's a hard life", that's why Jedi tests and trials are so very hard. Times are *always* dangerous for the Jedi. They've gotten more dangerous as of late to be s

 

naw ibo
I think we are going around in circles with some of the stuff that we are discussing. On some of these issues, we have different POVs; after all, our focus determines our realities!

Qui-Gon: Why do I think he is full of conflict? Because he is completely focussed on the "here and now" to the exclusion of "tomorrow." He finds Anakin and immediately believes that it is so important to train him that he does not consider the consequences of separating him from his mother or starting the training at such a late age. I don't think Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin himself; he only wants to, out of desperation, when he feels there is no other way. I find him interesting: IMO, he is truly a Jedi who always does exactly as the Force dictates, without attachement or emotion. But he makes a grave mistake in interpreation of what the Force tells him w.r.t Anakin. This is a tragic mistake; especially so because he does it with the best of intentions. I know there are very different interpretations of Qui-Gon's character, so I'll just state that this is the way I see him, as part of the saga now, not taking into account what could have been, if he was not such a prominent part of TPM.

Obviously, I think it would have been better if he was a character in TPM similar to Ben in ANH. But that is now quite beside the point.

About Qui-Gon's character showing us a richness to the jedi order, IMO, one important character paints much more detail to the order than showing many more or different scenes of Temple life. I can try to understand the character and get inside his head and thus try to understand the philosophy(ies) of the order.

Luke is only the hero of the second part of the saga because of Anakin's side-trip

We will just have to agree to disagree about this. I may be completely wrong, but I'll wait till EIII to change my opinion on this one.

About Obi-Wan's "legendary" status: I don't think just "any" Jedi would have done all of the following: track down the dart to Kamino, survive Jango and Slave I, the asteroid chase, sending vital info. from Geonosis before being captured, surviving in the arena and absorbing Dooku's Force lightning. When I see how easily countless Jedi fell during the arena battle, I think this entire list is no mere achievement. One or two, any Jedi may have done; not all of them. For that matter, if these achievements are not that special, why is killing Maul so special? After all, it was only in the end that he managed to overcome his emotions and best Maul. Anyhow, IMO, this shows that the "Force is with Obi-Wan" all of the time, more so than other Jedi. Otherwise, we would not see a single one of them die on Geonosis.

Back to whether Anakin was ready or not: I think he was NOT ready to go alone: sending him alone was handing him over to Sidious on a platter. Anakin thinks himself ready, but throughout AotC we are shown time and again that he is miles from ready. This one too, we'll have to agree to disagree, since we have gone around in circles.

 

Boy, you guys have been going downtown on these issues!

Just a quick drop in to give my 2 cents worth.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Anakin was destined to fall. Yoda hisself could have trained the kid and he still would have fallen - see Dooku. The failings come from character flaws inherent in these two. Dooku - who knows? Greed? Vanity? The self-righteousness or righteousness that Qui-Gon may or may not have picked up from his estwhile master? Anakin was damaged goods from the start. He was an ex-slave. He would have needed extensive counseling to overcome his background and accept a life of self-sacrifice - who's to say Anakin got it, or took the counseling to heart? He appears to talk the talk and not walk the walk, so it's very possible he was counseled, but fluffed it off. His knee-jerk reactions (emotions/agression/anger) are STILL what he falls back on first when in a stressful situation.

The Jedi were doomed the minute Qui-Gon put Anakin in front of the Council and said he was the Chosen One and needed to be trained. Anakin already thought himself special and now he hears he's all but messianic from a man he looks up to. So special, this man will toss aside a personal friend/son who has been with him for years.

So Qui-Gon gets shish-ke-babed and Obi-Wan is stuck between a rock and a hard place because he loved the man and chained himself to a time-bomb because the man asked him to against his original opinion. If the Council and Obi-Wan still refused to train him, what could they have done with Anakin? They can't ship the kid back into slavery. Are they going to put him in an orphanage?

Aside from the obvious - asking Queen Amidala to bail out Anakin's mother and set them up on Naboo as a reward for Naboo and getting them off Tatooine, but that's a suggestion that the Queen should have been presented with (and that's pie-in-the-sky and doesn't lend itself to legend). I think Anakin would have gone for it. Stayed on Naboo with his mom with love object Amidala/Padme nearby? Just as good as being a Jedi in a 9 year old's eyes I'm sure.

As it is, Anakin possibly couldn't/wouldn't fit in with the other padawans because he's different. He apparently refused to try to assimilate himself - see non-traditional padawan wear - and he's distrustful of authority figures who don't have power/bolster his ego. Now the kid might have been golden/malleable up until those difficult teenage years then he started to rebel. He takes everything said to him as a criticism, twists compliments so that they're put downs, wants to be 'independent' when he doesn't have the maturity to actually be so.

Anakin IMHO lacked the emotional maturity to become a true Jedi Knight. THAT was his flaw. No amount of being more stern or being more lax, extra training, or better/different instructors was going to give him that. Only Anakin could do that for Anakin and at that point in his life it was very obvious that he just couldn't. Obi-Wan could only show him the path. Anakin would have to learn and make that connection to maturity to know what following that path really meant.

Like I said, maybe when Anakin was younger, he was obedient and a good kid trying be a Jedi, but he began changing as a teen. Unfortunately by then, Anakin was already very powerful and very dangerous. He is the literal loose cannon. What could the Jedi have done with him then? They could only hew to the path they put him on and hope like heck that he chose to stay on that path.

Oh man, I hate to think what Anakin would have said and done had Obi-Wan been there with him when his mother died in the Tusken camp. Anakin didn't listen to Obi-Wan when he just thought Padme might have been injured falling out of the gunship. Anakin's mother had just died in his arms after a month of abuse and torture and he's going to listen when Obi-Wan tells him to calm down and center himself? I don't think so.

I said this on another thread. Obi-Wan voiced his opinion to his superiors. More than once - i

 

I think we are going around in circles with some of the stuff that we are discussing.

Yeah but it's fun, like a carnival ride.

Putting the more on-topic stuff first:

About Obi-Wan's "legendary" status: I don't think just "any" Jedi would have done all of the following: track down the dart to Kamino, survive Jango and Slave I, the asteroid chase, sending vital info. from Geonosis before being captured, surviving in the arena and absorbing Dooku's Force lightning. When I see how easily countless Jedi fell during the arena battle, I think this entire list is no mere achievement.

My point wasn't what WE the audience think, like I said, WE can see that Obi-Wan's contact with Dexter was vitally important. We can put together all those little things and see how big and important they add up to be.

The events of the PT thus far aren't the sorts of things to make legends in the history books. Let's take the Arena--remember what Dooku says about their showing being worthy of remembrance in the Jedi Archives? Let's think of something earth related, like Custer's Last Stand or The Alamo, how many names are known from those events in general?(not to people who have a special interest in those particular events, or Texans )--one or two, usually whoever was the most prominent individual involved, like the leader. Which in the case of the Arena would have been Mace Windu and perhaps another Council master who was there. Padme might even have been mentioned, seeing as she was an important Senator. Obi-Wan? Nah, probably not, unless it was to somehow blame him for the debacle in the first place(not his fault but that's history for ya! ) as "The Jedi who investigated and got caught".

How would his flight threw the asteroid field even come to the attention of anyone? Sending vital information?--How many legendary informants are there? His fight with Dooku certainly might rate a mention, as "needed to be rescued by Master Yoda", blocking the force lightning, etc would very likely never even come into it.

Does this mean they shouldn't? Of course not, we can see how important this "little" stuff is, but in terms of making "legends"--most of this stuff doesn't do it. If the words "legendary Jedi Knight" are going to be used, then it shouldn't be in relation to me the movie going audience, to whom of course he's a legend, but to the Jedi Order in a galaxy far far away.

Now defeating Maul is different, because of the place the Sith have in the scheme of things--that would get attention, because facing and defeating a Sith, especially the Sith Lord who brought attention to the fact that the Sith still existed after a thousand years in hiding, is the kind of thing considered a big deal.

On the Anakin being ready to be alone thing, I think I'm just not explaining myself well enough. Not that you'd agree if I was, but I can tell that the gist of my point just isn't clear from your responses. That being I don't think he's ever going to be anymore ready to go than he is now--not because he is ready but because there isn't anything else Obi-Wan or the Council can do which will make him more ready, whether they allow him to go *now*, in five years or never. Them not allowing him to go would send him down the dark path as surely as letting him go did. The situations would be different but the result virtually the same, because Anakin and *his* attitude and inner self is what will determine whether it will be a light course he takes or a dark one, no matter what the events around him are.

Why do I think he is full of conflict? Because he is completely focussed on the "here and now" to the exclusion of "tomorrow."

How is that conflicted? I think that is exactly the opposite of conflicted. Qui-Gon is completely focused on a narrow little line of thought and he has no conflicts regarding it.

I don't think Qui-Gon did what "the force dictates" because I don't think The Force dictates anything. It is the link tying everything together and beings with sensiti

 

The Jedi were doomed the minute Qui-Gon put Anakin in front of the Council and said he was the Chosen One and needed to be trained.

This, Jovieve, I believe to be absolutely the truth. From that point in time, the Jedi and Obi-Wan were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. So was Obi-Wan "wrong" to train Anakin, sure we can say that, but he would have "wrong" not to train him as well. Anakin would have been free and easy pickin's for the Sith looking for a new apprentice and he'd be resentful of the Jedi as well, because they had refused him after that nice man Qui-Gon told him how talented and special he was and how he was going to be trained as a Jedi. Were the Jedi Council wrong to allow it, sure they were, but they would have been wrong not to allow it as well. By Obi-Wan's doing it and the Council's allowing it, at least Anakin was being exposed to the proper use of the Force and goodness and justice and brotherhood and friendship before the Sith got a hold of him. Whether Anakin chose to take proper advantage of the opportunity he was given is entirely up to him.

No amount of being more stern or being more lax, extra training, or better/different instructors was going to give him that. Only Anakin could do that for Anakin and at that point in his life it was very obvious that he just couldn't. Obi-Wan could only show him the path. Anakin would have to learn and make that connection to maturity to know what following that path really meant.

Now that's just about as perfect a summation as one could get.

Oh man, I hate to think what Anakin would have said and done had Obi-Wan been there with him when his mother died in the Tusken camp....Anakin's mother had just died in his arms after a month of abuse and torture and he's going to listen when Obi-Wan tells him to calm down and center himself? I don't think so.


Oh I hadn't even really thought much of that scenario--and you are right. That is a situation which could only have ended badly.

You keep pressing the issue, you come across as - whiny, shall we say? - alienate those who might have agreed with you and really damage the relationship with your student - who already thinks you're too critical and not good enough to teach him anymore.

Exactly the point I wanted to make. All Obi-Wan would have ended up doing is distancing himself from others who might at some point be inclined to support him and put an even bigger wedge between himself and his student, who already thinks he knows better than you.

 

*tries to catch up on naw's monster posts, dies*


Well, wanted to wish everyone happy holidays, etc.

BTW, just saw Gangs of New York. Very good film, Jim Broadbant is in it.

*falls asleep, Green Fairy drags me to our room*

 

Well, let's keep going around in circles one more time.

About Obi-Wan's legendary status: when he is descibed in calendars and such as "legendary" I think the man's entire life is being summed up. He is not being described as a legend in his own time. The investigations that he carried out as a Knight in AotC are not already legendary. But when everything is put together, including events in EIII and AotC, his life does seem legendary, including what we see in AotC. So, to get back to what brought about this discussuion, what we are being shown of Obi-Wan in TPM as well as AotC, are building up to "legendary" status, IMO. I don't really see him portrayed as weak or ordinary. As a young Knight, he has already accomplished enough. Yes, he was caught on Geonosis, but Mace did not take two hundred Jedi to just rescue him; he went there to investigate what Obi-wan had related. He did more than enough before getting caught, IMO, and I doubt that the other Jedi would disagree. So, finding Kamino and Geonosis was pretty run-of-the-mill? Why didn't anyone else find out more between TPM and AotC? Given his standing with Yoda and Mace, they appear to have thought he was pretty special in his abilities himself, even though in the matter of training Anakin, they interfered wrongly. But that may have come from vested interest in Anakin as the "Chosen One", as Mace seems to indicate.

On the matter of Anakin as well as Luke: IMO (and I may be proved wrong by EIII), Anakin's destiny was to be freed by Qui-Gon, to meet Padme, grow up to be a great star-pilot (perhaps on Naboo), marry Padme, somehow kill Sidious, and be the father of Luke. In this scenario, Anakin has a dual role: to defeat the Sith and through his son, revitalize the Jedi order. So, Luke is important for bringing in fresh blood into the Jedi order (which does need some changes as is clear in the PT so far). Okay, so there is Luke's importance to the Jedi order, even if Anakin had not fallen. Anakin is the "vergence" or nexus; the Force CONverges to him and then DIverges away from him in the form of his progeny. He himself is NOT required to be a Jedi.

If the above is correct, then Qui-Gon's role was also to bring Padme and Anakin together. The scene in Shmi's kitchen in TPM (the seating arrangement), Padme's strange desire to go explore Tatooine, etc., are IMO, indications of this. Qui-Gon's tragic mistake is that he realized that the Force is telling him something, but he makes a mistake as to what it is. Instead of letting Anakin go with Padme, he wants him to become a Jedi.

his character as it has been portrayed --which is to say arrogant, inflexible, self-centered and imposing.

Arrogant: Qui-Gon, Mace, Obi-Wan, Ki-Adi are all shown to be somewhat arrogant in TPM.
Inflexible: It may also be argued that he believed in something so very strongly, that he was willing to give up everything for it. In the TPM novel, it is even hinted that Obi-Wan understands this.
Self-centered: I don't agree. He does bow to the Council's wishes, and is willing to wait till they make a decision.
Imposing: he is a Jedi Master; he should be imposing, just as Mace is, in AotC.

Obviously, I have quite a different opinion of Qui-Gon. I see him as caring, compassionate, cunning (a good trait for a Jedi), strongly in tune with one aspect of the Force, and a well-respected Jedi master coming from an illustrious Jedi line. With one enormous problem: so out-of-touch with the "Unifying Force", that he makes a horrendous mistake.

Conflicted: what I didn't make clear is that Qui-Gon believed in training Anakin SO strongly, that he was willing to flout fundamental Jedi rules to do so. He is so desperate that he is willing to forego completing Obi-Wan's training in the Living Force so that Anakin is not lost to the Jedi. I do not believe Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin himself; he is not focussed on himself but on what Anakin can do for the order. The tragedy is that all this fervor is based on an error in judgement. I feel sorry for him and what he did; but I can'

 

E-K, happy holidays. You and everyone please be safe on New Year's. I want you all to be around here arguing and speculating in 2003.

Yes, he was caught on Geonosis, but Mace did not take two hundred Jedi to just rescue him; he went there to investigate what Obi-wan had related. He did more than enough before getting caught, IMO, and I doubt that the other Jedi would disagree. So, finding Kamino and Geonosis was pretty run-of-the-mill? Why didn't anyone else find out more between TPM and AotC?

I didn't say it was run of the mill. In fact I said just the opposite, we the film audience can see what meaning all those events and little things mean. BUT that's only because as movie viewers we have access to information that the legend-builders and historians in the galaxy far far away would not have.

The reason they weren't discovered by anyone else is because Obi-Wan and Anakin happened to be assigned to protect Padme, because Palpatine, the bad guy, wanted them there to cause trouble. That had to do with what Palpatine wanted with Anakin, not with Obi-Wan. Yes, Obi-Wan had a unique contact in Dexter, but that isn't the sort of thing that would make it into the history books, so no one else would have any reason to think it was special.

Yes, Mace and the other Jedi went there to investigate what Obi-Wan discovered, not to rescue him, but the people like Obi who say "hey guys there's an army over here" are rarely the ones who get the notices. The Mace's do, the one's who went to "take care of the problem". Like I said, sure the Battle in the Arena would make it into the books, but the main people focused on would be Mace, maybe some other council Member, perhaps Yoda would be mentioned in there someplace though he wasn't involved until he came with the Clones, which was after Count Dooku's comment about the Archives.

Even against Dooku it would be more like "A number of Jedi were involved in trying to stop Dooku from escaping. The Great Master Yoda himself even took part in a lightsaber battle against him. However, Dooku attempted to kill wounded Jedi as they lay helpless, so Master Yoda was forced to choose between Dooku and the Jedi and Dooku was able to escape."

All those little things are great for us as movie goers, but they'd not add up to anything in terms of a legendary Jedi, except defeating Maul. They are "under the radar" type of things. Which is why we love Obi-Wan, our modest, unassuming Jedi Knight, but it doesn't get him mentioned in history books.

I'm not saying that it somehow makes him more important to be mentioned, sometimes what you don't know--the stuff below the surface--is actually more important than what is on top of it(you know the whole "power behind the throne" type of thing) all I'm saying is that nothing we've had so far add up to his doing anything that would be remembered long after he was gone. I know and you know what he is doing is of great importance and that he is great and worthy of true respect, but that doesn't mean it would ever show up on the pages of history.

The one thing that changes it, assuming there isn't any great big thing flashy thing he does as a General in EP III, is that he is the next to the last Jedi left in the OT. So suddenly the guy who normally would never rate a mention, is right up there in big bright lights. So it is a victory of sorts for those "under the radar" guys, the ones who do great things, but somehow never seem to get much noticed. This time one of them is the last one left, still doing what he's always done, only now not being blocked by the flashier newshogs.

As for the whole respected Jedi issue: we hear that he is apparently well respected, from Dooku, but we don't actually see much evidence of reasons for this--this was always a problem I had, even before the movie came out. I'm more than willing to accept it, sight unseen, BUT it is sight unseen. "Yoda holds you in such esteem"---why? Where do we see this? What has Obi-Wan done to earn this "esteem"? We don't hear a

 

It may also be argued that he believed in something so very strongly, that he was willing to give up everything for it. In the TPM novel, it is even hinted that Obi-Wan understands this.
Self-centered: I don't agree. He does bow to the Council's wishes, and is willing to wait till they make a decision.


Qui-Gon doesn't bow to the Council's wishes in TPM, he twists them around. "No Anakin they said I can't train you, but I want you to watch everything I do"--i.e. "I can't overtly train you, but I'll do so on the quiet".

And it doesn't look to me like Qui-Gon gave up anything, never mind everything. I see no evidence of this. He was pretty sure they wouldn't kick him out of the order. He got what he wanted. He got off on being the Jedi rebel, that was reward enough. You could tell from his interaction with Obi-Wan, particularly on the balcony, it didn't pain him that he and his Jedi brethren often didn't see eye to eye, even for their own sakes--simply because he cared, you know his much vaunted compassion. He seemed to be almost happy about it. That is because he gets off on being a rebel.

That is why the conflicted thing is important--he was never conflicted, he never wondered if he was doing the right thing. Why? Hey, the Council wasn't going along with it, so he was doing the right thing for him--which was to be The Rebel. Now see when Obi-Wan was willing to go against the Council, that actually meant something, because we know he truly respected them and their opinions and he also respected Qui-Gon, so we know he had to make a choice and that if the Council didn't go along with him, this would be a big deal for him, something he'd be giving up. He may have been wrong to do so, or not, but it meant something because he was willing to sacrifice something that meant alot for him to do so. With Qui-Gon it was more like someone who hates chocolate giving up chocolate for Lent.

what I didn't make clear is that Qui-Gon believed in training Anakin SO strongly, that he was willing to flout fundamental Jedi rules to do so. He is so desperate that he is willing to forego completing Obi-Wan's training in the Living Force so that Anakin is not lost to the Jedi. I do not believe Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin himself; he is not focussed on himself but on what Anakin can do for the order. The tragedy is that all this fervor is based on an error in judgement. I feel sorry for him and what he did; but I can't cast him as a villain.


Oh I don't think he's a villain, someone can be arrogant, self-centered and inflexible without being a villain.

I still don't understand what that has to do with conflicted though, he showed no conflict in any of that. First off, he never has any trouble flouting the rules when it suits him to do so, that is made pretty clear. It's been a steady progression. He showed no conflict about training Anakin himself when Anakin is initially rejected. In fact, he came up with that idea so quickly you know he had to have been considering it beforehand, just in case. He had no trouble whatsoever tossing his padawan of years aside. He certainly didn't look sorry about it, in fact that look was almost more of a challenging look, "See I'll do what I must, so there". He has no trouble at all going against the decision of the Council, covertly if not yet overtly.

I do believe it is focused on himself, because it's still him stuck in his role as The Rebel. He's playing his self assigned role to the hilt, come hell or highwater, no matter who it hurts, even the boy he claims he wants to help.

See I didn't actually find the Council to be all that arrogant in TPM. I thought it made sense what they were doing. Mace's attitude seemed to more along the lines of "Oh god here we go again, he's got another cause". It probably would have meant more coming from someone else, but Qui-Gon seems to be sort of like the boy who cried wolf, it's like "what is it this time? oh the Chosen One now?" They are a Council, they gather information, they need to come to

 

Actually, forever_jedi, aside from Qui-Gon(Qui-Gon's ghost is going to have to do so much groveling in EP III just to me not dislike him), we are closer to agreeing than we are apart because I know I certainly believe that Obi-Wan's actions and character make him worthy of recognition. I know I agree that the most that should have happened on Tatooine was the freeing of Anakin, not the training of Anakin as a Jedi, which instead would make it likely that his son, whoever that was(because it wouldn't be the Luke we know if things had gone that way, his whole life and history would have been different), would very likely have become a Jedi instead.

LOL!! I was much too verbose last night. I think it was the effects of negativity on the Firefly board I visit every other day or so. Not that it had me down, but it put me in the mood to take the devil's advocate stance. Yeah, sure the show's been put on "hiatus" by FOX and will probably not be picked up by UPN, but that's no reason to go around being all negative. BTW, if it does through some miracle get picked up, you should all give it a shot. Due to FOX's game playing, the episodes were shown out of order and without the introductory pilot which lead to confusion in the beginning and, along with the novelty of being a "space western", turned some viewers off but at least half of the ten episodes were really good to fantastic(imo, Out of Gas, Ariel, War Stories, Objects in Space and the pilot, Serenity, with honorable mentions for Our Mrs. Reynolds and Safe but even the other four episodes are good) and the acting is definitely above average.

E-K, Liam Neeson was in Gangs of New York as well right? I know Jim Broadbent was playing I think Boss Tweed. I want to see Gangs of New York as I've always been interested in that era and have read alot about the Five Points area, etc. I always was kind of into "true crime" but only old true crime, pretty much nothing past 1920.

 

Reads posts whew!

Gets bowl of popcorn, sits in chair E-K abandoned to watch Naw and Forever verbose it out.

Good job.

 

Like Wow! LOL

Nudges jovieve over, can we share the popcorn?

Watches in amazement.....

 

Stupid double post........

 

[crunch crunch] holds bowl out to Ewanfan51.

 

Ha..ha..ha...forget the popcorn. I can't afford to be too verbose to often, since I am a terrible typist and horribly slow!

Or better, yet, pass some around. Not really, as usual, the holidays meant terrible bouts of un-Jedi-like indulgence! And it's not over yet!

Well, naw ibo let's just agree to disagree about Qui-Gon Jinn. There are plenty of TPM forum boards for him. Since you have noted what you DISLIKE about him, I'll just summarize what I feel is his one major problem: ignoring the future ramifications of his instinctive actions; in other words, ignoring the OTHER aspect of the Force. So, you see, I don't necessarily attribute the negative qualities to him that you do; thus, I sense "conflict" where you don't. I interpret certain scenes, expressions and dialogue in TPM differently than you do. But that's okay! The great thing about SW is the infinite possibilities of interpretation!

I'll just add:IMO, Qui-Gon's character in TPM teaches us an important point about balance. To consider both the immediate and the future when we decide on a course of action. Obi-Wan learns this at the end of TPM and becomes a great Jedi; perhaps Yoda knew it all along.

A couple of other points: when I said the Council appeared arrogant in TPM, I referred to their initial dismissal of the news that the Sith had returned. This clearly showed that they were living in an ivory tower. Important note: Yoda did NOT dismiss the idea. It's no wonder that he survived the purge. Mace actually utters the word "Sith" only at Qui-Gon's funeral. Before, it is the "Queen's attacker."

Another thing about the Council that is unpleasant for me: they were right in their initial judgement not to train Anakin. Why did they suddenly change their minds when it was clear that the Sith HAD reemerged? This really smacked of "using" the Chosen One for this new threat. Note, again, that Yoda remained steadfast in his belief that Anakin should not be trained. There seems to be a distinct difference in the attitude of the majority of the Council, and Yoda.

Legendary status: what I have attempting to say is that Obi-wan's ENTIRE life gives him that status. I don't see the events in AotC reversing that claim!

Oh, one last thing: I really don't feel that Mace has done much in AotC that makes him worthy of special note. He killed Jango after the poor guy was stomped on by the Reek. If Yoda had not shown up with his army, Mace would have been droid fodder, and a tragic little footnote in history.

On that note: what would everyone have LIKED Obi-Wan to have done in AotC that would have made him more glorious? Aside from putting up a better fight against Dooku.

I'll start off: not get captured on Geonosis. Perhaps join up with Mace when he arrived. But then we wouldn't see him besting the Acklay! And no Anakin on Geonosis: a good thing. No loss of limb.

 

Forever On that note: what would everyone have LIKED Obi-Wan to have done in AotC that would have made him more glorious? Aside from putting up a better fight against Dooku?

Lose a lot more clothing...oh, you mean action-wise?

I would have liked to have seen more compare/contrast interaction between he and Anakin. Since they were separated throughout most of the movie, it's harder to compare their actions. Obi-Wan really kicked a$$ and showed great maturity, wisdom, grace and cunning, yet he did it with such subtlety that it was hard to 'see'. Anakin was flashy all the way through and on first viewing, everyone was like, wow, Anakin really IS good/better, etc. If they'd stayed together more, I think Obi-Wan's superiority as a Jedi would have been more evident.

 

Hi Jovieve Well, if you take a second look, all of Anakin's stuff is flash: poor kid is not successful in accomplishing much of anything he sets out to, except perhaps saving Obi-Wan from Dooku temprarily. HE DOES not appear powerful at all: in fact, one of my problems with AotC, is that the future Lord Vader is such a nincompoop. Loses Zam, leads Padme into trouble, can't save her from capture, loses temper with Tuskens, loses against Dooku. Anyway, my point was: given AotC's plotline, what exactly would you change to make Obi-Wan seem more powerful?

Oh about clothes and Obi-Wan: nah, he's always going to be covered up in SW. Thank the Force his Jedi garb look so.... swashbuckling on him!

 

Forever That he would have clearly blocked Jango's blaster shot with his hands.

That's something above and beyond the pale.

Yeah, I noticed Anakin fell down completely throughout AOTC. If this mission is his test - and all missions are - he failed miserably.

 

I referred to their initial dismissal of the news that the Sith had returned. This clearly showed that they were living in an ivory tower.

So was I, in my explanation of how Council's generally work. Thinking about it realistically--any responsible group of people who need to make such decisions are not going to jump to conclusions. Just because Qui-Gon says it after a fifteen second fight with an attacker, doesn't mean it makes good sense to say "Oh really the Sith have turned...interesting". Someone says "I don't think the Sith could have returned", someone else says "Hey you know there are things here we may not know, it could be a possibility", etc. Which is exactly what happened in the Council meeting. In fact if everyone had immediately believed him, I'd say they were not a very responsible council. Under the circumstances there reaction was quite balanced.

As for Mace not calling it a Sith, why should he? At that point at most it was an alleged Sith, but it was most definitely, whatever it was, an attacker.

they were right in their initial judgement not to train Anakin. Why did they suddenly change their minds when it was clear that the Sith HAD reemerged? This really smacked of "using" the Chosen One for this new threat. Note, again, that Yoda remained steadfast in his belief that Anakin should not be trained. There seems to be a distinct difference in the attitude of the majority of the Council, and Yoda.

What else were they going to do with Anakin? There was a Sith on the loose who would be looking for an apprentice. Anakin, due to Qui-Gon's rush to take him away from his mother and train him as a Jedi created the situation wherein his existance was very public knowledge as a hero of Naboo, the very planet the Sith were somehow involved in targeting. The Sith wouldn't necessarily KNOW the kid was a Force sensitive but they would almost certainly make a point of checking it out. It was either train Anakin or leave him open for the Sith, because he'd now be prime pickings for him, as Anakin would hold resentment towards the Jedi for refusing his training. Thus we have that lovely rock and a hard place wherein Qui-Gon damned the Jedi if they did and damned them if they didn't.

Yoda didn't want him trained because he felt it was doomed to failure BUT by the time of Obi-Wan's knighting, not training him was doomed to failure as well. I actually think in this case Yoda's concern about the danger in Anakin's training was more concerning the individuals involved, he won't know for sure that Anakin's training would lead to the destruction of the Jedi Order, although I'm sure he knows that it would lead to some pretty damn big problems, but I think he was pretty sure the failure of Anakin's training would have devastating consequences, emotionally and/or physically, for the Jedi who were involved in training Anakin. Obi-Wan in particular, but it would also victimize alot of people around the two of them with the fall out. So seeing as there was danger in both the Jedi training him and the Jedi not training, I think he was trying to lessen the affect on those potential victims, such as Obi-Wan.

However, under the circustances, after the Battle of Naboo, I do believe that training him was the best choice, even though it meant alot of pain for Obi-Wan.

I really don't feel that Mace has done much in AotC that makes him worthy of special note. He killed Jango after the poor guy was stomped on by the Reek. If Yoda had not shown up with his army, Mace would have been droid fodder, and a tragic little footnote in history.

Mace already has a high status in the Jedi Order. The leaders are always the ones focused on. It doesn't matter if he really didn't do anything all that impressive in that particular battle. His past and his status as the leader insure that he is the one who is going to have his name in bold letters in the Jedi Archives under Battle of Geonosis. Speaking of Firefly in a cut scene from the pilot, Zoe talks about her and the Captain's exper

 

Actually, I thought Obi-Wan did a pretty good job putting the clues together. He knew Jango was the bounty hunter he was looking for pretty much immediately when he interogates him, his voice mannerisms totally tell you he's on to Jango but he still keeps the proceedings civil especially since there is a third party watching, that most like has no idea what's going on. In the commentary track, Lucas makes a mention of this and the fact that he does see Jango's armor. If you watch, you see him look over to the closet until Boba goes and closes it. Obi-Wan was right when he told Yoda and Mace Windu that the Kaminoians were mostly likely not behind Padme assasignation, because it would not suit them to do so. The Kaminoians are "Industrialists" of sorts. They make "goods" for others in exchange for money. Any potential seedy activities such as having bounty hunters kill political figures would be bad for their business. It's just an unfortunate circumstance that the man they use to make the clones from also happens to deal in this kind of foul play, they are unaware of this or else they wouldn't have used Jango. Sure, Obi-Wan gets chastised at little bit for this assumption, but it is an assumption that happens to be right, the Kaminoians are not behind Padme's assasignation and there is no motive for them to be behind it.

As for asking about whether or not the Jedi Council commisioned for a clone army seems reasonable. With so many jedi on so many missions, there's no way for Obi-Wan to know about every little decision be it big or small that the Jedi Council makes. He's just considering the possibility that the Jedi Council may have indeed ordered this clone army.

Once on Geonosis, after discovering the driod army and such. He lays it all out for Yoda and the others. I'd say that Obi-Wan was shown to be pretty smart and clever throughout AoTC.

As for the Jango fight(kicking Jango over the ledge)that was pretty much a catch twenty-two. He pretty much had to do it in order to avoid getting shot by Jango. The whole purpose was to force Jango to drop the blaster. Obi-Wan knows it's still going to suck since he's going go over with Jango.

As for Dooku, yeah it would have been nice for him to last longer, but I'm willing to let this go due to the fact that he was running on empty when he finally confronted the Count while Dooku hadn't done anything physically demanding up until that point. Dooku was at full strenghth while Obi-Wan was wore out. Obi-Wan knew he was going to lose but the fact that he made the decision to go down swinging instead of "standing down" as Dooku asked him to earns him respect points. That kind of action is the thing of legends.

 

*picks chair up and dumps Jovieve*

I believe this belongs to me.

Okay, I actually read some of what you guys wrote this time, happy?

I don't see Obi-Wan as being 'under the radar' at all. Every Jedi he seems to meet up with seems to know exactly who he is, despite the number of Jedi, size of the temple, the busy Jedi life and time away on missions. Even the younglings.

As for those that hold him in high esteem, why should that be seen? As humble jedi, praise should be shown as few and far between.

I don't believe Dooku was lying about Yoda holding him in such high esteem, and Yoda's not one to think about someone like that who's underdeserving. Just because he doesn't say it onscreen, or maybe even to Obi-Wan shouldn't matter. As for Qui-Gon and his relationship, despite their disagreements, which seemed to be caused by both of them, they seemed to have a fine relationship. If not alittle stiff, that could have been a 'on a mission' thing some of the time though. They just both seemed to piss each other off sometimes because of their differences, and Obi-Wan feeling a bit like he was being shoved under the rug.
Since I meantioned that, I don't think Qui-Gon meant it that way at all, and wasn't totally oblivious to how Obi-Wan took it. That little look he gives him. But really, should he have to explain himself? Obi-Wan *was* ready, and he felt strongly Anakin must be trained. Since the Council decided to not decide anything now that certainly didn't make it anymore neccisary for him to explain himself to Obi-Wan. But he *did* speak very highly of him, I think that scene more acurately shows their relationship, then any of their misunderstandings. Or the thoughts by many fans that Qui-Gon is an unemotional rebel that has his head so far up his butt he can't see his perfect padawan.

I would have liked a lot more in the saber duel of course, but Obi-Wan's style is at least a stronger one it appears, if not as visually stimulating. I liked the part where they showed him and Dooku just locking sabers and Dooku overpowering him. Kind of shows you clearly they're not having a physical battle, but a sort of 'force arm wrestling' match.
I think that's good, because he's not out fought, or out thought really. He is drained a bit from Dooku's power, then wounded. Whereas Anakin fights with his anger a lot more, and is not overpowered but out thought in Dooku's stylish little last move.

 

I noticed a few pages back how much some of you didn?t like my thread about Obi-Wan, so I guess I?m not too welcome in this thread. However, I can?t stand by while some of you deride Qui-Gon in a thread that?s supposed to be dedicated to Obi-Wan. Personally I like both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon equally. As a matter of fact, I?m glad George introduced Qui-Gon into the story, and despite that I grew up with the OT, I can?t imagine SW without Qui-Gon. I especially like Obi-Wan?s character, though, as he shows us that living is a constant learning process.

Just a few things:

>>>> I've said it before and I'll say it again, Anakin was destined to fall. Yoda hisself could have trained the kid and he still would have fallen - see Dooku. The failings come from character flaws inherent in these two. Dooku - who knows? Greed? Vanity? The self-righteousness or righteousness that Qui-Gon may or may not have picked up from his estwhile master? Anakin was damaged goods from the start. He was an ex-slave. He would have needed extensive counseling to overcome his background and accept a life of self-sacrifice - who's to say Anakin got it, or took the counseling to heart? He appears to talk the talk and not walk the walk, so it's very possible he was counseled, but fluffed it off. His knee-jerk reactions (emotions/agression/anger) are STILL what he falls back on first when in a stressful situation.

I think you?re somewhat right about Anakin?the cards were certainly stacked against him. But Anakin?s master, Obi-Wan, seems to be a gentle, liberal man, and it is just his gentleness, his liberality, which has been responsible in part for Anakin?s raging need for change, for his violence, for his protean emotionality. Qui-Gon insisted on discipline and that Obi-Wan always knew his place. Why didn?t this get transferred down to Anakin?

>>>> As for conflicts, Qui-Gon didn't seem conflicted to me at all, that's part of his problem and why I believe he was arrogant, self-righteous and inflexible--he was never conflicted about anything, nothing ever gave him pause, nothing ever made him think for even a second, "Hmmm...maybe I should at least try looking at it from the other side" or "Could I perhaps be wrong?". He just went along blithely like a bull in a china shop, not caring who he stepped on along the way, so long as he got to do what he wanted to do.

Qui-Gon is conflicted? up until Anakin proves himself in the podrace. Watch the dinner scene in TPM. Anakin and his mother are going back and forth about podracing, and Qui-Gon considers what Anakin says for a moment, and then asserts that Shmi is right?Anakin shouldn?t take part in the race. Then watch the conversation Qui-Gon has with Shmi afterwards. Shmi has to convince Qui-Gon to help Anakin despite the fact that he had just been talking to Obi-Wan about how much Anakin intrigues him. ?I didn?t actually come here to free slaves,? Qui-Gon says. He is conflicted between duty and what his feelings tell him he should do. When he finally decides to trust his feelings?a tenet of Jedi philosophy?he sticks to his guns and never looks back.

What you perceive as ?arrogance, self-righteousness and inflexibility? naw, some might see as faith and belief. This brings up one thing I really liked about Obi-Wan?s character in TPM. By equating Obi-Wan with the council, Lucas suggests that the rite, the ritual, man?s idea of the world, the rigid, the formal, the pattern of life endlessly the same?that this is opposite of the free, the human. The static, the man who thinks he is full-formed, is negative. The only positive is the man who chooses faith, who chooses to believe and does so in the face of reason, history, experience and the world as it seems. The council and Obi-Wan are men of the world who live by worldly rules and it takes Qui-Gon?s death and Anakin?s heroics for them to see that these rules are made to be broken. I?m glad both the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan ultimately decided that Anakin should be trained, which shows that

 

Greetings, Obi-Wan devotees. It has been far too long since I read this thread on Master Kenobi.

I was listening to this ballad tonight, an old favorite of mine, and I realized that it would be perfect for Obi-Wan, fleeing the Jedi Purge with the infant Luke. Even if you don't normally like country, just listen once. Brooks has a good voice.

The Change
Written by: Tony Arata, Wayne Tester
(performed by Garth Brooks on the CD Fresh Horses)

One hand
Reaches out
And pulls a lost soul from harm
While a thousand more go unspoken for
They say, "What good have you done
By saving just this one?"
It's like whispering a prayer
In the fury of a storm

And I hear them saying you'll never change things
And no matter what you do it's still the same thing
But it's not the world that I am changing
I do this so this world will know
That it will not change me

This heart
Still believes
The love and mercy still exist
While all the hatreds rage and so many say
That love is all but pointless in madness such as this
It's like trying to stop a fire
With the moisture from a kiss

And I hear them saying, "You'll never change things
And no matter what you do it's still the same thing."
But it's not the world that I am changing
I do this so this world will know
That it will not change me

As long as one heart still holds on
Then hope is never really gone

I hear them saying you'll never change things
And no matter what you do it's still the same thing
But it's not the world that I am changing
I do this so this world we know
Never changes me

What I do is so
This world will know
That it will not change me

----------------------------------

My two credits' worth on the Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan bond is this: I thought that it was a good caring bond on both ends. Based upon the films alone, I do not see Qui-Gon abandoning Obi-Wan for the training. Obi-Wan was ready for the trials and does not need to be coddled. It is obvious that Qui-Gon didn't tell Obi-Wan beforehand, but the surprise is not one of grief. If anything, it is a well-earned compliment to Obi-Wan. Thank the Force that Qui-Gon was right about his senior padawan, Obi-Wan.

On a less serious point, notice Obi-Wan could stay on a ship virtually alone in the private quarters with a dozen Padme clones yet still honor the Jedi code.

bad radio You are not alone: although I would have enjoyed Gangs of New York regardless, I too couldn't keep out of my head some TPM connections.

Ok, now I am off again. Happy New Year.