***The Official Obi-Wan Kenobi Eps II & III Discussion and Speculation Thread: Part 5***

>>>> If one considers the entire SW saga, then Obi-Wan is clearly modeled after Musashi. Not Qui-Gon. The world considers Obi-Wan "an old wizard", but he knows that he remains very special to the Force. That is his reward.

The Qui-Gon character in Musashi is Takuan Soho, and for the most part his character is in accordance with Qui-Gon?s. But for one very brief moment the roles are reversed?not only did Jotaro and Iori pester Musashi to make a name for himself by joining the shogun?s council, Takuan also wants Musashi to be the shogun?s tutor. Actually, not only were some aspects of Qui-Gon?s character taken from Musashi, but some of Anakin?s chcarateristics were too?in his young and unruly days, Musashi took on a whole school of Samurai, the House of Yoshioka, and killed all 80+ of them in one setting?he even killed a little kid because the child was next in line to take over the school. This whole part of the story, I think, is analogous to Anakin?s bout with the Tuskens, even though earlier in the book Musashi kills a bunch of Samurai after he thinks that they killed his sister (Musashi?s mother died when he was very young, so his sister acted as his mother for most of his childhood).

Oh baby, from the latest Image Attack on the OS, nice one of Ewan training with Nick Gillard:

[image=http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/imageattack/2003/01/img/ep2-1a-547.jpg]

I had a very cool little AOTC moment today. I went into the city to see Baz Lurhmann's La Boheme(which is really great) and before the show my friend and I stopped at the Virgin Megastore. We went downstairs to look at the DVD's. They have DVD previewing machines with headphones, like the cd listen before you buy machines that alot of music stores have.

Anyway, it just so happens that someone was watching AOTC on one of the preview devices and I happened upon it during the scene just as Obi-Wan is walking into Dex's Diner. First off, it was great watching the scene again--I'd forgotten how good Obi-Wan looked in most of that scene(aside from the little pickup shot at the end) and you really couldn't tell he wasn't acting against something real. He really looked like he was looking at someone and interacting with someone.

But what was even better was seeing how much the guy watching it was really enjoying it. He was laughing in all the right places and everything.

And to top that off, when I walked away from that pleasant little scene, I walked right into the sound system playing "Roxanne" from Moulin Rouge and was struck yet again with how good Ewan sings.

Old Juan, if you are out there I want to thank you for this quote, as I haven't been able to find my Premiere magazine and so was always forced to qualify myself with a "I think it was in Premiere magazine in 1999" whenever I brought it up.

Take this quote GL gave to Premiere Magazine in '99 prior to the release of TPM.

"In the begining of the film(refering to TPM)he is a apprentice, by the end of it he becomes a Jedi Knight, eventually he'll become a Master"

So basically Obi-Wan will be considered a Jedi Master. Either in EP3, if not then by ANH.

Thanks again.

Hi folks! With the excitement in the EIIISA forum, I have not been to the AotC forum in a while!

naw ibo Thanks for the cool pic. As was clear from the TPM DVD, Ewan REALLY enjoys the saber duels and practises quite seriously! He is so EXCITED to be in SW and that does come across on the screen!

Ah, MASTER Obi-Wan! Well, who cares whether someone gives him the title in a little ceremony or not. The OT Obi-Wan is a more a Jedi Master than any master we see in the PT with the exception of Yoda. And no, it's not because he was the one to survive!

You are quite right about that, forever_jedi. And I can certainly accept that in the next film we may see something which is decisive on the issue of Obi-Wan's masterhood and it may very well be that he is not. It is just that it is stated with such "certainty" that he isn't in certain quarters based on pretty much nothing in the films. Going solely by the films thus far, there is absolutely nothing to say that Obi-Wan isn't as much a master as anyone else referred to by that title.

As for the picture of the sabre practice I really like it too. Ewan has great moves(even if it is a still picture). I really hope he puts as much work into the sabre fight as he seems to be looking forward to--because a fight between him and Hayden in the next film should be incredible, at least if Lucas doesn't go crazy editing it to bits and showing mainly closeups and quick cutaways.

Your most welcome Naw, I've been in EP3 forums lately. Discussing Anakin's turn to the darkside in relations to himself and Obi, as well as whether or not Obi-Wan knew of Leia's heritage or not. I think he did but I won't get into that here. I do like that picture of Mr. McGregor practicing with Nick Gilliard.

I noticed that the new JQ book has been released. Thank goodness I was able to stop reading them after the first three. Man o man does Jude Watson need to take a big fat dump. That's all I have for now.

Um.... thanks for that, Juan.

*bounces you*

Yeah, I'm hoping the saber fight doesn't suck this time.
AOTC's was okay, but it was just alot of saber flashes and nothing. I want to see a little that's good like TPM, and mostly have it like ESB and ROTJ.

btw, if you check the sound menu (I think) on the Kamino desk top for AOTC dvd, the menu has Obi-Wan and Jango trading blaster bolts. Both CGi I believe, and Jango's just flying around shooting at Obi-Wan and it's set on loop. It's rather cool actually.
One thing I was disappointed that didn't make it to filming was Obi-Wan and Jango hiding behind pillars as they traded shots.

oh no! Epi III spoilers!
I don't think I am going to remain spoiler-free until Epi III - spoilers are just too much fun!

great pic of Ewan practing with Nick Gillard - thanks for posting it, naw!

Arggh!!!!

Everyone,

DO NOT waste your money on JQ 5!!

Why is Obi-Wan even IN this one? There is NO sign of him on the cover. He has no faith in himself, he looks to Qui-Gon for his answers, acts like an insecure 15 year old. And as for his apprentice...they might as well name the series RP for Anakin Skywalker - Rogue Padawan. He doesn't do ANYthing he's told, he TOTALLY disregards EVERYthing a Jedi is supposed to represent, he's NOT sorry and doesn't even understand his mistakes!!!! He may love and want to make his master proud of him, but he doesn't respect him. By the end of this hideous piece of prose, Obi-Wan is afraid of his 16 year old apprentice!!

I want to just slap someone. I've got SUCH a bad feeling about this. If Jude Watson has GL's approval for these stories and they make Obi-Wan look like such a dupe, I dread what Ep III is going to do to our hero.

fume fume

Sorry I have been gone for so long -- the motherboard in my computer died, and I had to get it replaced, *sigh*. Not to mention, I have been spending almost all of my free time online with a Scottish gentleman I met fairly recently . . .

Anyway, thanks for posting that pic of Ewan and Nick Gillard, Naw!! One of the things I like about TPM and AOTC is getting to see Ewan's Obi-Wan in light-saber battles (what can I say? ). *SIGH*

jovieve, thank you for that review. I actually went to B&N this weekend to find it, so I could take a gander at it but they didn't have it in stock. Now I'm glad I won't have to buy this one because you've already given the bad news.

Unfortunately I can't say that I am the least bit surprised. It's par for the course with Watson. What the heck has she got against Obi-Wan? It's bad enough that the books that SHOULD have focused on him as the apprentice, didn't. Now that he's a master, she can't even give him credit for having a brain of his own. Where does she get this idea that Obi-Wan was so insecure? I'd say a large aspect of Obi-Wan's character throughout the saga is based on the fact that he isn't, its one thing that contributes to allowing him to withstand the tragedies he has to live through in order to start the next generation on it's path. Even back in TPM, it's what allows him to get over what Qui-Gon does to him in front of the Council so quickly. He may not have those massive midi-chlorians of Anakin or even Yoda but what he does have is an incredible amount of inner strength. Doesn't mean he never questions himself, any open, intelligent person does, but it's the healthy kind of questioning, not the wallowing in self-doubt, "Oh I wish my perfect dead master were here to help me" kind.

The only thing I have to believe is that I don't think Lucas has a clue as of what's going on in those books. I think he only gets involved in very few of these things and that would be some of the large hard covers novels and perhaps a tiny bit with certain of the comics, because he's said he does read them sometimes, which means he likes them and thus is more likely to give his 2 cents. His "people" who deal with the JA and JQ series probably have a certain guideline for the authors to follow(like "no disappearing Jedi" and stuff like that) and anything else, Watson is probably allowed to do whatever she pleases as long as it doesn't directly contradict the films at the time. Until I have reason to believe otherwise, this is all on Ms Watson's shoulders.

Overall I was happy with AOTC and I'd like to think we can believe Rick M about the next one with regards to Obi-Wan, the whole thing about being ecstatic and all(although let's face it, it wouldn't exactly surprise me to have Lucas chicken out on actually putting the blame where it belongs, on Anakin, and shifting it all off on poor Obi-Wan, his always convenient scape-goat).

naw ibo I'd say a large aspect of Obi-Wan's character throughout the saga is based on the fact that he isn't, its one thing that contributes to allowing him to withstand the tragedies he has to live through in order to start the next generation on it's path.

PRECISELY! Really, throughout the entire saga, Obi-Wan is quite self-assured, without being arrogant or cocky. In fact, I believe that he will, in EIII, be the mastermind that sets certain strategies in place. I think it shows that Watson has really not seen and understood the FILMS in any depth, including the OT. Also, it is mind-boggling that Lucas allows her to write on and on, when there are zillions more talented people around who would do a far superior job!

I don't think GL will chicken out in putting the blame on Anakin - after all, the mythological hero or "had-the-potential-to-be" hero always falls because of his own choices. If you look at AotC quite objectively, he has already started putting a lot of the blame on Anakin. However, IMO, he also put quite a bit of the blame on Padme in AotC.

SPOILER ALERT FOR JQ #5 READ NO FURTHER



Naw

It was horrible. At one point, when Obi-Wan realizes how totally off Anakin has gone, he actually has a meltdown. He freezes, can't think, completely undone as to how to deal with him.

At the end when Anakin is looking around for praise - look at me, I'm so great - and Obi-Wan's all but begging Qui-Gon's ghost to help him out, Obi-Wan loses it completely - starts shouting at his apprentice. Anakin starts smarting off...JeeZUS.

Obi-Wan is 32 years old in this and he's written as a totally insecure kid. **SIGH**

foverver_jedi, I agree, Lucas has so far set up it so that it rests on Anakin. My concern at this point is with a change of heart on his part. If it goes as it seems to be now, then we should be able to say "Ah, Rick McCallum was right" in EP III.

Oh god, Jovieve, that sounds absolutely hideous. Blecchh! That author is so clueless. Sometimes I almost wish I could get inside her mind just to try and figure out what logic she uses to convince herself these things are in character and acceptable. What is she thinking? A meltdown? Be real, in AOTC, in the middle of a battle Obi-Wan still managed to retain sanity in the face of a disobedient and going off the rails apprentice--he managed to make not just one but 4 good logical arguments for Anakin's coming with him(stopping the war, needing Anakin's help, possible expulsion and the example of another). When Anakin is seriously, publicly disrespecting him, he still manages to not whack that kid's sorry butt all the way back to the Temple to spend a few weeks learning from the example of the Younglings(in fact I thought he showed a great deal of self control in that scene in Padme's apartment, imo Anakin was incredibly out of line).

The Obi-Wan of Jude Watson's EU does not resemble the Obi-Wan of canon or even of other EU. They're two totally different people. It's astonishing no one at Skywalker Ranch roundup catches this kind of stuff.

Obi-Wan is so wise and calm and confident in almost everything. That a punk like Anakin can trip him up in Jude's world is just so unbelievable. Not that I think Obi-Wan is perfect - no parent raises children without some mistakes - but considering the import and seriousness of training a padawan, simple teenage rebelliousness is something Obi-Wan should be well prepared to deal with. That Anakin doesn't respond is not Obi-Wan's fault, or it shouldn't be made out that way. But that is the direction Jude is leaning.

Jupiter, what a disgrace.

Most particularly this situation, as I understand it has some similarities to the Melida/Daan episode of JA(which I didn't like much back then but still...). So this is something Obi-Wan has first hand experience with himself, although Anakin obviously from the sounds of it, gets more off track than Obi-Wan did in terms of dark sideness, Obi-Wan never touched the dark side in that situation. In fact, if Qui-Gon hadn't been so distracted by his feelings for Tahl he quite likely would have been suggesting they stay and help the situation on the planet himself. He showed no consistency in those books. It was do what I say, not what I do.

Still, it's just plain ridiculous for her to suggest Obi-Wan'd turn into a puddle of goo practically crying for his master faced with a similar situation of youthful rebelliousness. If anything he'd be that much more able to understand and deal with it because of his own experience. The real problem is, that subconsciously at least, I think Watson realizes what a total loser she made Qui-Gon now(especially in the M/D arc) and of course there is no way she could possibly suggest Obi-Wan might be better than him, so she has to make him even more of a loser.

Just a suggestion, review the book on Barnes and Noble and give it a bad rating. I did that myself on the first Jedi Quest book that I had the misfortune to read. I know it probably did not good, but made me feel better.

Obi-Can

I would, except I don't have a problem with the book overall. It's written as they all are, no better or worse, my huge critique is with what I think Obi-Wan's characterization should be.

I may be in the minority. There are plenty of JA/JQ lovers out there.

Well these are some quotes I got from a website from the Ep2 Visual Dictionary(Encyclopedia?) regarding Obi Wan Kenobi's character.

'He is cautious where his apprentice,Anakin skywalker, is impulsive. Kenobi strives to train his young Padawan in the discipline that will make him a pillar of strength against the dark side of the Force. As danger unfolds around him, Kenobi's abilities and judgement form one of the last bulwarks against the collapse of the republic.'

This sounds about right although I personally interpret his cautiousness as maturity something that comes with knighthood. It fits in with a quote on Anakin 'Anakin is capable but not yet profesional...' I believe this separates a Master and an apprentice.

' Trailing a would-be assasin into a nightclub on Coruscant, Kenobi steps casually to the bar 'to have a drink.' As planned, his apparent relaxation draws out his quarry...-it is virtually impossible to take Obi Wan by surprise.'

I never thought of the scene in that way. I always thought he was just bullying Anakin making his apprentice do all the work.

' Accomplished in a wide variety of skills ranging from diplomacy and psychology to military strategy and hand to hand combat, Obi Wan Kenobi has to be ready for anything in his field assignments.'

'Obi Wan proves his abilities as an expert pilot and tacticion, sacrificing his spare parts to put Fett of his tail with apparent explosion debris.'

I think this scene is really important as to show how good Anakin's piloting skills must be as a comparison. Obi Wan is arguably a very good pilot just imagine what Anakin is truly capable of that would make a seasoned pilot quail(Obi Wan). I really hope we get to see Anakin piloting a starfighter in EP3.

'A jedi of powerful inner focus, Obi Wan nevertheless finds he is unprepared for the Count's specialist techniques.'

This is in relation to the following quote to show Obi Wan's inner strength.

'The Count subtly uses the Force to probe Obi Wan's inner weaknesses.'

This happens during the Geonosia questioning scene with Obi Wan suspended in the force field.


I personally don't know how accurate this is or how close it is to GL's idea on the character. Perhaps the writer should read this book for it certainly does not show an uncertain master here.

Anakin's independence, born of his late induction into the Order, has brought reprimands from Jedi elders Yoda and Mace Windu.

A picture of the arrogant discussion between the 3 masters was shown. This was not shown in the movie I think but it feels right that Obi would be taking some heat.

Interesting quotes, Dagobah, I think some of them were discussed in the past but it's been a while and it can't hurt to see them again. Thanks.

I never thought of the scene in that way. I always thought he was just bullying Anakin making his apprentice do all the work.

See, I always thought of the scene that way. Obi-Wan knew exactly what he was doing. Anakin was so quick to want to "do something"(Obi-Wan's warning for him to "think, she went in there to hide..."), that Obi-Wan gave him something "to do", while he just waited for the problem to come to him, as he pretty much knew it would in one form or another(turns out she decided to try and shoot him in the back).

Unfortunately, the lesson seems to be lost on Anakin as the boy isn't given much to careful consideration. If he had been, he'd say--"there I was so eager to be "doing" and "active" yet it was Obi-Wan who drew her out and captured her by doing just the opposite." This is actually what is behind the whole argument in Padme's apartment in my opinion. Obi-Wan wasn't saying they should listen to the Council's mandate just because it was a rule and the Council said so, but because he understood the principles behind it and that if trouble was about, they wouldn't need to go looking for it and investigating it at that point(esp. seeing as they had no leads at all), it would come to them. Which it did. And it was coming whether they set Padme out as bait or not, so it probably would have been for her not to have been used as bait. It was an unnecessary risk.

Jovieve, I don't think you are in the minority. There seem to be less fans of the JQ than the JA overall. And more importantly I think the people who were disappointed with the JA for the most part just gave with the JQ(aside from us martyrs of course ). So technically while most people who read the books are going to be fans of them and like them and we would be in the minority there, I think in terms of overall opinion from regular and non-regular readers there are probably more people who agree than we think.

Actually Dagobah Y, one thing I forgot to mention, that I think some of your quotes touch on and that we have discussed in some depth here in the past is the idea that Obi-Wan is comfortable in various settings. This is something that I think Watson completely ignores in her books. In a way that few of the other Jedi we've seen are, and that includes Qui-Gon and Anakin, Obi-Wan seems at home whether he is with planetary leaders or former mercs turned diner owners. He isn't aloof, he doesn't try to be imposing, his mode of operation seems to be to try and put people at ease to try and find a way to work with them.

Sorry to go off topic here, especially since I haven't been around in a while, but....

For any who have checked out the trailer for Ewan's new film, "Down with Love", which is online now...

Is it just me, or does he look absolutely yummy in that flannel shirt?



Just thought I'd get your thoughts on it....

OK, back to topic...

Obi-Wan rocks!!

Hello everybody. I hope you had a happy new year.

I'm just hopping in between exams in order to ask a short question that has taken up residence in my head. I realize that some of us (myself included) are aware of the EU and its implications for our hero. In Mrs. Watson's "interesting" world it is clearly stated that Qui-GOn once lost an apprentice, Xanathos, to the dark side making Qui-Gon treat teenage Obi-Wan somewhat...well, that a matter for another discussion.
Anyway, I noticed that everybody seems to feel sorry for Qui's loss and not blame him in the least besides a meek "You've trusted the boy too much. You've been too nice."
Obi-Wan, on the other hand, gets frequently blamed for Anakin's fall to the dark side. There are endless discussions how Kenobi's faults have made Anakin turn - even though Obi-Wan started training Anakin under way more difficult circumstances then Qui-Gon trained Xanathos. Do you have any explanations for this?