***The Official Obi-Wan Kenobi Eps II & III Discussion and Speculation Thread: Part 5***

Kenobism

I think it's a holdover from the attitude of the OT. There Obi-WAn took the blame squarely on himself and so did everyone else.

In the PT, GL has made it clear to me and many others that Anakin's fall was a matter of his choices. Some people like to look for blame outside themselves, when usually it's rare that people have NO control over what happens in their lives. But some people don't buy that and are looking for that magical 'thing' that Obi-Wan is going to do or has done that set Anakin up to fall.

I don't believe that.

As I've said many times before, IMHO, Anakin was already lost before he was even found.

 

Oops, sorry Rastro

No, I haven't yet seen anything of Ewan in "Down with Love". I'm still waiting to hear from Naw if she ever got the "Solid Geometry" movie and if it was any good.

Not that I care, so long as Ewan is in it...

 

How come no one much comments on QG's actions in manipulating the dice on Tatooine. Shouldn't that be a no-no for Jedi?

If the boy truly is the The Chosen One and is meant by the Force to be a Jedi or whatever, why does not QG let the Force decide? What if he had let it go and it had been Shmi freed, not Anakin, what would he have done, do you think. It seems like QG's choice there made a huge difference in Anakin's life, that was a choice not within his or Obi1's control.

Also QG had fought with Maul before Naboo, why did he keep pursuing the Sith, leaving his padawan out on those catwalks? Perhaps he is focusing too much on thee Living Force, QG is not mindful of the possibility that tatoo Sithy will defeat him and how that would affect OB & Anakin.

 

GirlJedi, don't worry, there has been plenty of discussion about that. I actually wouldn't hold that against him, the dice were probably fixed by Watto in his own favor anyway. I definitely agree that if the boy was the Chosen One and the Force wanted him trained as a Jedi, then he wouldn't have had to manipulate the dice to free him. But I have mucho problemos with a good deal else about Qui-Gon(I could write a book! ), you don't have to look too far to find it. As for Watson, I have long since come to the realization that the woman is totally clueless and has decided that if the films aren't going to make Obi-Wan mainly responsible for Anakin's screwing up, well, then she darn well is!

Kenobism, exactly! With Qui-Gon, it's like "Oh poor Qui-Gon" and everyone tip toes around him even though he just stands around feeling sorry for himself AND nearly causing Obi-Wan to end up in the AgriCorp because he's too darn stubborn to see his fine qualities. It's a good think Old Ben didn't decide to act like with Luke or else we probably wouldn't have gotten far in ANH. All Anakin has to do is have a massive midi count to get Qui-Gon throwing himself at him, demanding he become a Jedi despite all evidence pointing to it's not being the best thing. Obi-Wan on the other has to selflessly offer to blow his thirteen year old self up to save Qui-Gon before Qui-Gon decides "Hey maybe he might make good padawan material after all". And from there he proceeds to treat him like an afterthought for most of the rest of the series. At least according to Jude Watson. Not that she thinks that is what she is showing, but it is.

Jovieve, I'm so sorry! I didn't realize I hadn't mentioned SolidG. Actually yes I did get it(a very nice copy really) and I liked it. It's not for everyone though. It had a Twilight Zoney kind of feel. Not to mention having a really pretty hot after opening credit sequence, which I believe I have a link for somewhere, so you can see it if you want to download it, it's 2.9 MB(the after credit sequence that is, not the whole video, which I have as a .avi file but it way too big to put up for download anyplace accessible). It's racy so I'll PM the link to you and you can watch if you want.

Yeah, y'all do want to try and see that Down With Love trailer though, Ewan looks good and he's funny.

 

I saw part of a commercial for Down with Love the other day. Looks interesting, and the picture quality looked odd, kind of to give it a rhetro look perhaps? Looking forward to it...

 

Yes, E-K, it's done in a very retro style. They even use the backscreening technique( you know how in old films if someone was driving a car, instead of actually having them driving a car down the street, they'd have a moving screen showing a scene behind them to make it look like they were in a moving car?). The fashion is totally early 60's as are the sets, the furniture, everything.

 

Jovieve
That sounds plausible, but I was actually not only referring to the "SW-universe" but also "SW-fandom". It simply caught my attention that people are more willing to lay the blame for Anakin's fall on Obi-Wan, then they blame Qui-Gon for Xanathos' fall. I find that curious. Still, your explanation pretty much hits the point, IMHO.

"As I've said many times before, IMHO, Anakin was already lost before he was even found."
That would be a very sad thought, wouldn't it? I'm not really sure when Anakin's fall was decided, but I think it was quite some time before Obi-Wan got his hands on the boy. Judging by the way the brat behaves in TPM and AOTC I'm very impressed that poor Obi-Wan hasn't died of a premature heart-attack yet

GirlJedi
Qui-Gon can be quite manipulative when he wants to get his way with something, can't he? I agree that does a lot of questionable things for a Jedi, but in the movies at least I get the impression that deep down he is a decent person. Maybe a bit ignorant to his Padawan's feelings, but he means well. I hope.
What did the "officials" say about his relationship with Anakin and Obi-Wan? Did Lucas really mean to let Qui-Gon abandon his Padawan in front of the Council?

naw ibo
Once again I can only wholeheartedly agree with you. By the way, a little while ago you posted a great picture of Ewan while he was training.
You don't happen to know a link to some screenshots of the trailer, do you? I wouldn't mind seeing your personal favourite pics of it, either

 

The SW films so far are quite different from the entire JA/JQ series. They should be treated as strictly EU. IMO, trying to reconcile those two series with the films, truly diminishes a great saga. Even leaving aside the PT, just from what we know of Obi-Wan's character in the OT, it is hard to imagine that he is the same person that Watson is writing about. Laying the problems of the entire galaxy on Obi-Wan's door is a very simplistic and juvenile thing to do and takes away from the immense compelxities that we see on the screen.

Btw, is is just me, or does anyone else out there prefer Ewan in his natural hair color to black? Don't get me wrong, I think he looks great as a dark-haired man. I just think his natural coloring is so unique.

 

Okay, I was stupid today and on my lunch went to Barnes and Noble and read most of the JQ#5. I just had to see it for myself--you know what, Jovieve couldn't be more RIGHT!

Oh my god! It's the worst one yet. Did this woman even SEE the films!?!? If I hear one more thing about Obi-Wan being so "serious"--he's the only Jedi in the PT shown to have a consistent, fairly frequently seen sense of humor(and he had it in a slightly less sophisticated version in TPM, even though he was little more than very attractive wallpaper for a good part of the film), even Anakin's humor is basically just an off-shoot of his own. And she's constantly trying to make out that he's so serious and humorless. And then THIS, this made me so mad, I had to write it down so I could quote it:

"Obi-Wan returned to his more pressing problem. He stared down at the security report once again. What was he missing?::here it comes:edit:: He had a feeling Qui-Gon would know. His Master was always able to combine emotion with logic to reach the correct conclusion. Find the emotion behind the logic--or illogic Qui-Gon would say. If you can't see the solution, try to see the emotion. But if something seemed logical to Obi-Wan it was difficult for him to see the illogical heart of it. He heard Qui-Gon's voice clearly in his head If it is not logical, it did not happen."

At which point Obi-Wan suddenly figures out just what happened to their "kidnap" victim. This woman does not give Obi-Wan credit for having any mind of his own, for having any talents worth speaking of, for having an uniqueness to his personality worth having. She has no clue to Obi-Wan the character, it's like she isn't even watching the same films. She's got Jocasta Nu on his case for not doing his own research and how he could have done it if he'd just followed her instructions. She's got him on his own case, berating himself for things that shouldn't even be there except his author(Madame Jude) hasn't a clue how to write him. It's horrible.

You know alot of people complained about The Approaching Storm, saying it was boring and all, but I swear so far Alan Dean Foster's version of Obi-Wan it the only one that comes even close to what we see on-screen. Watson makes out like he's an idiot. And her Qui-Gon fixation is so bad. I mean I admit it, I have an "Obi-Wan fixation" but the difference is--I'm not mentioning him constantly in books where he is DEAD and that are supposed to be focusing on his poor former padawan. The one she also ignored in the Jedi Apprentice series(it's only called Apprentice, no need for her to actually try focusing on said Apprentice in her writing).

Kenobism, I don't have any captures of the trailer that I can post(the girl who does them doesn't like them posted to other boards), but I'll see if I can dig up my favorite. It's where he gives Renee's character the look that I call "The Finisher"--he gets up and looks directly in her eyes with that look of his like the world could be crashing and he'd still only have eyes for her. No one but no one does that look as well or as convincingly as Ewan.

forever_jedi actually, while I love Ewan with dark hair, I DO prefer his hair more like his more natural look. Maybe it's pretty common in Scotland, but here in the NE US at least, that gingery haired, milky skinned, blue green eyed coloring is quite rare and even more rarely ever seen on anyone who is good looking. I actually like how it looks on him, though not everyone can carry it off--when he's natural, his eyebrows are so light, they are this very light strawberry blond color(but a bit on the thick side, lots of strays around the edges) as are his eyelashes, but it looks so good on him. Basically look at his beard during the "good scenes"(aka not the reshoots) and that's pretty similar to the rest of his coloring.

However, I don't mind them darkening up those long eyelashes of his a bit, because it brings out the color of his eyes really well, it's good to have th

 

Kenobisim:

As I've said many times before, IMHO, Anakin was already lost before he was even found."
That would be a very sad thought, wouldn't it? I'm not really sure when Anakin's fall was decided, but I think it was quite some time before Obi-Wan got his hands on the boy. Judging by the way the brat behaves in TPM and AOTC I'm very impressed that poor Obi-Wan hasn't died of a premature heart-attack yet

It is sad. That's what makes the whole SW series a tragedy. Anakin was damaged goods. He was a slave. He was never going to lose that attitude - the secretiveness, the lack of respect for authority figures, the unwillingness to cow-tow to anyone's say-so once he got his freedom. Nothing but enormous therapy for the rest of his life would have helped him. He does not and never would have the temperment to be a self-sacrificing Jedi.

Also, where is it said that Jedi are or have to be saints? What's wrong w/ Qui-Gon using a little Force help to offset Watto's loaded dice? They are monks of a sort, but only of a philosophy, not of a Christian-type religion. There are many things wrong with what happened in TPM on Tatooine. The fact that Qui-Gon was risking the life of a 10 year old to get them all - except Shmi - out of a jam and bondage in an absolutely long-shot plan was laughable and ludicrous. No wonder Obi-Wan wasn't at Qui-Gon's side in TPM in Tatooine. Knowing what we know now about his personality, it would have been he and Padme ganging up against Qui-Gon's idea. Qui-Gon still emerges from all this smelling like a rose despite the destruction in lives he left in his wake. It's like his charisma and surface compassion fools most people, so they are more than eager to look toward Obi-Wan - stern, serious, not fond of Qui-Gon's distractions - for the blame.

Forever

I like Ewan either with that black hair or his own natural color. The dark color makes his eyes just pop out and I love that dark to light gradient of hair to eyes. But he is a russet-haired/gray eyed Scot, so that's what I like too. However I'm not fond of the no hair look (Trainspotting/Black Hawk) or the Kurt Cobain bleach blond locks (Velvet Goldmine) or AOTC's make believe hair. So there you are.

 

Told ya, Naw.

 

Jovieve, yes you did and I'm glad I didn't buy it. It's awful. I just can't get over how bad it is especially from an Obi-Wan character stand point.

It's like there is no connection between what we see in the films and what she writes. There were a couple of other things I jotted down(I jotted down a quote about Obi-Wan's supposed "seriousness"--as compared to Qui-Gon's supposed sense of humor--where is she getting this? Obi-Wan is serious when he has to be, otherwise he appears to be quite good humored and quick witted, definitely the sort of guy you want around in a pinch). But the point is all the same--she has no clue about Obi-Wan. Either that or she's so pissed off that the films aren't placing the blame for every wrong in the galaxy on his already over-burdened shoulders that she's decided to "correct" that in her version of George's universe.

You know what else, I don't mind Ferus. He seems like a good kid. I noticed other people complaining about him on a JQ thread on the EU board--but really I don't think he seems to be at all a bad person. He's not perfect but he works hard, he doesn't try to glory hog, he does his best not to be affected by the negativity of others. I loved how Anakin thought, he bet Obi-Wan never had to deal with someone like Ferus--well how about Obi-wan had to deal with something worse. He had Bruck Chun--spawn of Satan. And it's an original JA character(Dave Wolverton I guess invented him, but she certainly used him plenty).

It's like his charisma and surface compassion fools most people, so they are more than eager to look toward Obi-Wan

That's exactly how I feel. I've said it often in the past, Qui-Gon said meaner things than Obi-Wan did if you ask me in TPM---"What are you brainless?" "The ability to speak does not make one intelligent." And of course the big assumption as statement of fact--"These Federation types are cowards, the negotiations will be short" said in a tone nearly approaching utter boredom. Quite true in that the FT's are cowards and the negotiations where so short as to not even take place but none the less, that was truly the line that put Qui-Gon out of my good graces. But he fools people.

That being said I don't think he's evil. He's just heedless and self-centered.

 

I like Ferus too, Naw.

He tries hard, he toes the line, he tries to be what he is, a Jedi.

Anakin doesn't like him because he's busted him too many times acting like a selfish, glory-monger. And Anakin knows it!

This is SO telling in my opinion. Anakin immeditately knows what Ferus is coming from - his POV, knows that he's not doing it because he's evil, but none of that matters to Anakin! Someone trying to be their best and trying to raise others around him when he sees them slipping is anathema to Anakin. He doesn't want to be corrected! Not even by such a person.

That description of Ferus also applies to Obi-Wan. Anakin also thinks his master is 'perfect' and never steps wrong and had a golden upbringing (or at least he did). And so you are left holding your breath for the moment when Anakin will realize this and puts Obi-Wan on the side of Ferus.

 

I like Ferus too, Naw.

He tries hard, he toes the line, he tries to be what he is, a Jedi.

Anakin doesn't like him because he's busted him too many times acting like a selfish, glory-monger. And Anakin knows it!

This is SO telling in my opinion. Anakin immeditately knows what Ferus is coming from - his POV, knows that he's not doing it because he's evil, but none of that matters to Anakin! Someone trying to be their best and trying to raise others around him when he sees them slipping is anathema to Anakin. He doesn't want to be corrected! Not even by such a person.

That description of Ferus also applies to Obi-Wan. Anakin also thinks his master is 'perfect' and never steps wrong and had a golden upbringing (or at least he did). And so you are left holding your breath for the moment when Anakin will realize this and puts Obi-Wan on the side of Ferus.

Great analysis of that situation, Jovieve(sorry for getting this so deeply into EU territory but it just annoys me that she seems not to have taken into account the films at all in her writing). And it is just why he resents Obi-Wan so strongly. As Padme said--"Mentors have a way of seeing our flaws--it's how we grow". Anakin can't stand that, he can't take correction of any sort, no matter how well meaning.

Anakin is expecting praise for what he did? He's made it so Obi-Wan can't trust him by constantly breaking Obi-Wan's trust(but of course somehow that's Obi-Wan's fault ), he possibly put another Jedi's life in danger, he didn't use the emergency contact channel when he should have. There's Ferus, doing nothing but being a good Jedi, a team player despite the fact that he's very talented in his own right and could easily be a glory monger, yet Anakin despises him.

And what is it with Watson treating Anakin like Superboy? Anakin is advanced but there is no evidence that he is *that* advanced, especially not a full nearly four years before AOTC. It gets a little ridiculous. I sincerely believe that in George Lucas' mind, nothing like this stuff has ever happened between Obi-Wan and Anakin. I think she is just out of bounds on this stuff.

And I still just can't get over how stupid she makes Obi-Wan in these books. You're left wondering how this 32 year old was ever allowed out of the Temple, never mind being a very well respected Jedi Knight. She makes him totally clueless at ever turn, even on the simplest of missions.

 

I agree, Naw. [sheepish] Sorry to rant so much about EU, but this is just too much.

The uberAnakin scene in JQ #5 was too over the top considering his age.

It reminded me - distastefully so - of "Rogue Planet" where Obi-Wan spends the entire book in awe of his little boy apprentice.

Obi-Wan is incredibly talented and gifted Jedi on his own, a true Jedi, selfless and self-sacrificing and you almost never see this in JA/JQ. Everyone is either impressed with Qui-Gon or impressed with Anakin. You only get Qui-Gon/Anakin's POV -silently to themselves that they are impressed with Obi-Wan.

It's pitiful.

P.S. I've read somewhere that the between AOTC and Ep III book 'Shattered' (or whatever) is going to be a political book about the Council. Does anyone know for sure?

 

I don't know. I'm not sure what Shatterpoint(?) is about. I believe it features Mace Windu. There is supposed to be a book featuring Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto in 2004 I think.

It's true, uberAnakin(I like that turn of phrase) is so over the top. And Obi-Wan is so underwhelming. He's beyond mediocrity in these books going right into near incompetance. And you are right, it reminds me very much of Rogue Planet's super little boy/idiot Knight syndrome. I can't help it, I complained about JA, which was bad enough in how Obi-Wan Kenobi became Obi-Wan Kenobi boy bimbo half the time and how she so rarely gave any time to seriously getting into his head and his own developing philosphy and view of life. But in JQ, he doesn't even remotely resemble either the Obi-Wan of TPM or the Obi-Wan of AoTC or the Obi-Wan of any of the films. It's the no sense of humor thing that really shows me just how totally clueless she is about the character.

As for Qui-Gon or Anakin's occassional bouts of being "impressed" with Obi-Wan, those moments are so few and far between as to really almost not count(you know how in statistics they often throw out the highest and lowest numbers )--normally we just have a count of all the weaknesses and flaws she wishes Obi-Wan to have in comparison to the incomparable paragon of perfection Qui-Gon and Anakin Skywalker--poor little midichlorian rich boy.

 

"but I swear so far Alan Dean Foster's version of Obi-Wan it the only one that comes even close to what we see on-screen."

Naw, I told you to stop being so wrong all the time.

I still hold that he had the personality of a doorknob, even if he was at least capable, to a Mary-Sue level I'd say however.
I hated that Obi-Wan with a passion, I don't want to hear about how great he is as a Jedi or how skilled as if it's a fan's preaching while I'm reading a book. If you're going to show how capable he is, at least put some life into him. Obi-Wan's humor has always been there, and his humanity.

I think one of the best things done in AOTC is to have him rag on Anakin half jokingly and down a couple drinks in the nightclub.

 

No I'm not wrong.

I still hold that he had the personality of a doorknob, even if he was at least capable, to a Mary-Sue level

How do you figure that? He didn't know everything. He didn't always "save the day" or have the answer. He was willing to follow Luminara's lead as often as not. He wasn't the one who made them the ally who ended up being so important on that Council, Luminara did. He got himself drugged and captured didn't he?(so did everyone else, but the point is if he'd been a Marty Stu, either it wouldn't have happened due to his brilliance or he'd have gotten them all out of quite quickly all on his own). I don't see how he can be a Marty Stu when he's shown as highly capable but not capable of everything and certainly not on his own.

Either way, my point was, no matter you look at it, positive or negative, he's closer to the Obi-Wan we see on-screen than the one Watson writes(or the one Greg Bear wrote), who is so far away as to basically not even be the same character. There is no connection between them aside from having the same name.

 

Well I guess you could be right.... stranger things have happened.

I've not read any other Obi-Wan's that I can think of.

But I hold that all three Jedi in that book were for the most part Mary Sues, and Anakin was weak and incompetent.
Can they find a healthy middle? Freaks...

 

I like Jude Watson & her books. I think she writes Obi Wan just fine. You're never going to get a satisfactory book equivalent of a screen character, because you're always in the author's head, so to speak. It's a different art/creative process.

That excerpt seemed okay to me. Obi is noticing the difference in how he and QG related to the Force, their strengths and weaknesses. But it's usually harder for people to look at themselves objectively, even for Jedi. QG was a great Jedi, and I think he trained Obi to be a true servant of the Force. Yet we know QG is a bit of a maverick, and often goes outside known boundaries to find what he needs. Obi does this when finding out about Kamino through Dex when the Jedi Archives are mute. Then we see Vader making use of bounty hunters in ESB - the use of unorthodox means to achieve goals has been passed down.

I don't think there is one thing or one moment that causes Anakin to turn to the dark side. I think it's a bunch of things and moments, stuff missed in his training by Obi, QG's death, his own choices and background and connections. and corruption by others - that mean old Palpatine.

 

That excerpt seemed okay to me. Obi is noticing the difference in how he and QG related to the Force, their strengths and weaknesses.

No he isn't. That was one quote. This happens numerous times every book. Why does she need to mention Qui-Gon numerous times in Every Book? The guy is dead, he's been dead seven years in the timeline by the time of JQ#5. Why does every time she shows Obi-Wan having a good idea, she has to in some way credit it back to Qui-Gon? Let him off the hook with Qui-Gon, don't have everything be compared to Qui-Gon. It's ridiculous.

Even if Qui-Gon taught him something, he had to be the one to learn it. He had to make it his own in order to be able to use it. He had to combine it with other things he's learned and been taught and things he's experienced for himself. As we see in the films he's a unique person in his own right, with unique strengths of his own, he isn't just Qui-Gon's incompetant apprentice and Anakin's incompetant master, which is pretty much how Watson rights him.

Obi-Wan in the books is nothing like Obi-Wan in the films. Sure a book is different from a film but the personalities aren't even close. The only thing they share is a name.

Secondly, Obi-Wan is never given any strengths, so that quote, and the others which aren't quoted, isn't comparing strengths and weaknesses. Obi-Wan is always on the losing side. Obi-Wan's "strengths", if he actually has any in Watson's version of the GFFA, never help them out of jam.

It's always Qui-Gon's strengths and Obi-Wan's weaknesses. He is never shown to bring anything special of his own to any situation or relationship, it's always based on Qui-Gon or compared negatively to Qui-Gon.

Obi-Wan's got plenty of fine qualities of his own which Watson seems to totally ignore. She writes him like he's barely worthy of being a knight never mind being the well respected and highly capable one he is supposed to be. And I'm still trying to figure out where this "overly serious" thing she's fixated on came from, Obi-Wan has a fine dry wit, good with a sarcastic quip or a twinkling eyed moment. And he was that way in TPM as well as AOTC and he's still that way in ANH, even after all he's been through. I could just imagine, if they'd had a bit more time together, him and Han trading off the one-liners. So where does this "humorless" thing she keeps going on about come from?

I'll never forget in the first JQ book, she has Anakin think about Obi-Wan's talent at tactic and strategy, how good he is at coming up with ideas. Good right? We get a little positivity about Obi-Wan's abilities--nope, because like two pages later, she has Obi-Wan going to Anakin and for all intents and purposes saying "I can't think of anything how about you". Then she has Siri telling Anakin about how Obi-Wan was someone who she always she had to work at keeping up with, he was just really good(not that Watson every really made it seem that way in the JA books). Then she proceeds to have Obi-Wan do nothing of real consequence for the rest of the story in terms of bringing the situation to a successful end. He just happens to be there when it happens. He doesn't directly contribute anything. The only halfway decent book in the JQ series was the second one(or third one actually, the first one with Granta Omega), imo.

So even on those very rare occassions when she has someone state a fine quality of his, she then totally contradicts it in the actions she writes.

She can't even allow Dexter to be something that is completely his--no she makes him a buddy of Qui-Gon's old pal Didi(and quite frankly I think Obi-Wan's got better taste in friends because Dexter appears to be a much more trustworthy character than that Didi fellow). Of course Obi-wan could never make a friend outside the order on his own right, nope Qui-Gon had to be involved? So Obi-Wan only met his dear friend Dexter because Qui-Gon knew Didi and Didi introduces them sometime after Qui-Gon's death when Dex buys the diner off him.

First off the original back

 

C'mon, Naw, don't sugarcoat it like that! Tell her straight!

 

LOL!! You know me, Jovieve, I try to be subtle.

BTW, there was another Obi-Wan Image Attack picture the other day:

[image=http://www.starwars.com./episode-ii/imageattack/2003/01/img/ep2-1a-4464.jpg]

 

You don't see Jude Watson having Qui-Gon think about "dear old Dooku" everytime he has to make a decision either.
IMHO the books are just poorly written and not because they are for kids. You can write for kids and not dumb-down the stories like JW does. How many times can she use the motif of the stupid duo who are acting just this side of the law? I can think of three times at least without having the books here to reference. (I have a nine year old son who likes to read anything Star Wars if you are wondering why I even have these books.)
By the way, I think that she got the idea of Obi-Wan being humorless from GL's comment when TPM came out that Obi-Wan went by-the-book and was frustrated by Qui-Gon's constant rule-breaking. It seems that JW just went from there with the idea. One gets the feeling that she just doesn't like Obi-Wan that much.
I really wish that someone would write a truly good book with him as the focus. Sigh.

 

Up!