Saga The Official Star Wars Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Fat_Rancor_Keeper, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    "Lucas has to give me a compelling reason. And this idea of "holding out for future releases to entice fans to keep buying sets" ain't it."


    I agree. I'm not waiting so I can have the fun of ultimately waiting more. We've already been waiting for this "DEFINITIVE" release for years now. Some of us were even holding out for a final DVD set for the last anniversary.

    Looking at things realistically - in 2004 what did any of us really get? OT fans got nothing and even SE fans were short changed in that the 04 release was noticeably riddled with issues and problems. The docs were cool though, but it's the actual films that are important.

    I'm not as huge of an OT fans as you guys are but nevertheless I'd like to see you guys get what you've all been waiting for. I'm more of an SE guy...so for me personally, these Blu's have to have color corrections, audio fixes, corrected sabers, and any changes need to be quality. Basically ILM needs to put in the caliber of work that Adywan has been so lovingly doing for the last few years.

    For God's sakes GL & ILM just need to take pride in their work, respect the films and respect the fans.

    "the only reason not to provide a worthwhile set, along with remastered originals, is because they are greedy, callous jerks that don't really care about the fans and are more concerned about their own massive paycheques."


    I agree....If when we start getting the specs on this we start hearing any crap about "there wasn't enough time to properly add CG Yoda (even though it's already been done)" or even worse they are basically just taking the DVD versions we've all worn out and giving us the same thing on Blu....they can keep their "extras" - I wont be buying.

    This is their last chance with many fans to prove themselves.
  2. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I'd say without the original cut it would be severely diminished, and not something I would be willing to pay money for. I don't even think I would be willing to rent the SE unless they fixed all the coloring issues. Who knows if they will--they certainly haven't in the hundreds of HD broadcasts they have been having, and Lucas did approve the transfers. It's the sort of thing that should have had a recall for, and it's embarassing that they keep re-screening it.

    But in any case, a Saga set with 12 hours of extra content averages out to 2 hours of content per movie. Extremely weak. You can fit that on the same disk as the film. It was the same problem with their Indy set. If they did a 4-disk version for Star Wars with 6 hours of content for that film plus a remastered original version, then that would be a quality treatment of that movie. That probably won't happen. The previous OT set had about 5 hours of content for the entire trilogy, which is about 90 minutes per film. Even if they did twice the amount of the previous set, I'd still call it sub-par. Sansweet admits "we're not calling it definitive" so I'm not sure if we should expect more than this. And that's the problem. Next to my 4-disk Wizard of Oz set, my 4-disk Superman set, my 5-disk Blade Runner set, my 4-disk Dawn of the Dead set, and my 3-disk Seven Samurai set, the extra features for Star Wars could be included on the same disk as the film. Hell, the Alien Quadrilogy set is 4 films with two cuts of each film and a total of 9 disks. And its 7 years old now. Lucasfilm has been saying they were waiting until Blu Ray to do some super-duper thing, the way the most successful and important franchise in history deserves, but it'll likely be less content per movie than the Die Hard boxset, and probably without the original cuts of the original films. I don't think anyone could say they are really putting a huge amount of effort into it if that pans out. But we'll see, they haven't really said anything specifics in terms of specs.
  3. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    That's really, really sad. Don't you care? Don't you think it's just a little tiny bit of a bad thing that one of the most successful and influential films of all time is essentially lost? This attitude just astounds me.
  4. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    You must train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.:)
  5. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    zombie,

    Quality over quantity. That's what I want. The Prequel DVDs delivered that. The Original DVDs went 70% of the way. The often touted extended editions of the Lord of the Rings and the Ultimate Matrix Collection were way more in the quantity area than quality. Now, the Ultimate Matrix Collection fixed that issue on Blu Ray by having the in-movie experience on each disc break down throughout the running time of each film all that behind the scenes material we got which gave the films a more comprehensive and quality presentation of all that material.

    That's all Lucasfilm has to deliver with the Blu Ray boxset of the Saga. Nothing more. You can bemoan the previous DVDs all you want but "The Beginning" is still one of the best documentaries on the making of a film, EVER.

    "The previous OT set had about 5 hours of content for the entire trilogy, which is about 90 minutes per film. Even if they did twice the amount of the previous set, I'd still call it sub-par."

    Sad.

    The question for the fanbase is when is enough enough, because it never seems to be enough when it comes to Star Wars and the wants of the fanbase. If Lucasfilm delivered 20 hours of exclusive and archival content, I don't think the fanbase would be happy because they would find SOMETHING wrong with the supplements...which is saying a lot, in my opinion.

    As for the "do I care" question you asked, no, not really. For me, Star Wars was never lost with the creation of the Special Edtions in '97 and '04. My wish is for Lucas to include them correctly in the boxset just to put this argument to bed. It's crippled the fanbase from discussing the films. For me, it has nothing to do with having a historical record, in my collection, of the the theatrical cuts. I personally agree with 90% of what Lucas changed. The story and the characters, for me, haven't changed since Lucas started altering things. It's only enhanced my enjoyment of the Saga. To this day, I still feel that the Battle of Yavin, in its Special Edition, form is 1000 times better than what it was in the theatrical cuts. And if we take Lucas to task for wanting to change things, you have to take to task certain other original members from ILM who wanted to change things as well...
  6. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Well, there's the problem then. One of the biggest issues in the preservation of cinematic history is staring you in the face and the bloody fans don't even care!

    As for quality, I agree, it's better to have 2 hours of good material than 4 hours of fluff. The problem is, Empire of Dreams isn't really anything amazing. There are a ton of vintage documentaries, and enough behind the scenes material to fill a 3-hour doc on Star Wars alone. And where are all the deleted scenes? We know they exist. Where are the screentests? I have a 40 minute bootleg of them, so I know they are out there.

    The Alien Quadrilogy set showed, for instance, how to have both quality and quantity. Solid 2-3 hours documentaries following the film from inception to release. Deleted scenes. Featurettes on specific facets of the production. Older docs. The Laserdisk archive preserved. Both cuts of the film. Etc. I'm not even going to get into Blade Runner. Star Wars has so much interesting material, but what they barely scratched the surface. Again, the material for each movie on the 2004 set could be included on the disk with the film itself. I'm not expecting something on the BR and Alien level--although it would be very very nice, and more than appropriate, and not very difficult to attain--but 2 hours of bonus material per film is not even putting effort. The reason they didn't include deleted scenes is because they were deliberately holding out on them for a future release, so it really just comes down to market manipulation. Which is my real complaint.
  7. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I agree. Empire of Dreams is an average effort as far as I'm concerned - too much voiceover and too much music. it becomes one-dimensional and dull. it really doesn't hold up to repeat viewings. one documentary on the three films doesn't cut it. A 90min doc on each film would have worked better.
  8. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Not to mention there was no part on the " Holiday Special" so to speak, or Palpatine.
  9. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    i'd like to see a retrospective prequels documentary along the same lines - done better obviously. all the documentaries we've seen on those movies are very much in the moment and about one particular element. it'd be nice to get fresh interviews with the cast and crew on the journies and achievements they felt they made... as well as their thoughts on the finished films now they've had a chance to distance themselves. for one, it would be nice to see jake lloyd and perhaps even his parents discussing what it was like for them at that time - being a kid in the most hyped film of all time - and how they feel about it now. would even be interesting to see him and hayden christensen in the same room discussing how each approached the role and what hayden picked up from lloyd's performance etc. there would be some good options in any such documentary.
  10. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    Phew, that's a relief.
  11. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    As awesome as docs and supplemental material can be I really care mostly about the films. I would rather not be short changed in that respect and just have ILM saying well we gave you 20 hours of bonus material so be happy you got that.

    For all I care I'd rather they spend all their time and effort on true high quality definitive versions of the OT's and SE's and that's it.

    They could take their time and release bonus material later if they want as a separate release or with the movies all over again. Double dip away! Just give me quality versions of the movies...that's the priority.

    Don't get me wrong - I would love it all! However, I'd hate to think that time or money that could be spent cleaning up the films is instead spent on some doc I might watch once or twice. I could get way more enjoyment (potentially) from the films.



    Ranting aside - One really cool thing to look forward to is CG Yoda in TPM! That most likely will finally happen and I can't wait. Though it wont make the overall movie any better it will help continuity a bit, make the film feel fresher and all the Yoda scenes will be much more tolerable.
  12. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    On a related note from my previous post...here's a full quote I've always just read in pieces on CG Yoda from 2005 (jeez it's sad we've been waiting for this update for so long)

    Are you going to go back and make Yoda completely CGI for the first prequel?

    Rob Coleman: We've actually have gone ahead and done that. We did that between Episode II and III. It was really an exercise to get the team back into the character. On Episode II I was really stressing living up to what my friend here created. So a lot of our focus was on that final battle sequence between Yoda and Count Dookuu. We'd nver seen Yoda do that before. But in the process we were learning about acting as animators. So it was really exciting for me to have the team back again, between Two and Episode III. We used Episode I, as a test bed, because we really didn't know what was gonna be in Episode III, and got the team back up to speed and really honed in on our acting. And using that as springboard we went right into Episode III.

    Don't you feel that by going back and digitizing Yoda in Episode I that you're losing 50% of Frank's performace? (Note: Frank Oz provided the puppeteering for Yoda in every film until he went completely CGI.)

    Rob Coleman: We don?t lose 50% of his performance because not only we have his voice which stays across of course, but we also have what he did in that movie and that was our touchstone. And we used it absolutely, exactly. It wasn?t my desire to do what he did. It was focusing my animators on what he didn?t do, and just bring that over into the CG world. It was a fantastic exercise for us to get a little bit inside his head, but very specifically to how Yoda moves and interacts with the actors.
  13. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I think there are two things that are inevitable about this release:

    That I'll buy it and that sadly George won't release the cleaned up HD versions of the originals. As you've all pointed out, he could literally placate 90% of the pissed off fans with that one move and remove a lot of the bile that gets directed at him. And yet for whatever reason, he won't do it. It's really odd...
  14. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    zombie,

    Of course they held back on more material. What other excuse can they have to sell these films again to the masses? Again, I'm not bent about that aspect. It's the nature of the business. Eventually, they'll put out the relevant material that they want the masses to see. And personally, I think this probably the last time due to the nature of Blu Ray itself. What I do see is Lucasfilm pushing the other Star Wars products currently in production and soon to be in production more than the films themselves. The films have had their time. I think the company has moved on from them.

    Personally, I don't need a set like the Blade Runner set. I have it but only three of the disc are worthy anything. There's really no need to have five cuts of the film, especially since between the five cuts, there's not that much difference. Again, for me, that set was overkill. The Final Cut was the selling point, not the bonus material.

    As for this, "Well, there's the problem then. One of the biggest issues in the preservation of cinematic history is staring you in the face and the bloody fans don't even care!", theatrical or special edition have never changed the feelings I have when I pop in the film to watch on DVD. I personally don't need multiple cuts to get that feeling. A year ago, I broke down and bought the 2006 set that included the theatrical cuts as bonus material just to see if I would feel any different and if I would take issue with what Lucas has done. It never happened. I watched theatrical cuts on a Monday. I watched the Special Editions on a Tuesday. The viewing experience was exactly the same for me. I was transported to that galaxy far, far away in both versions. That's Star Wars to me. By Thursday, I sold the theatrical cuts.

    No matter the version, for me, it's still the same. No amount of Lucas tinkering can change that. And personally, I think he knows this too. I think he knows when enough's enough.

    The Blu Ray release will settle the argument once and for all.

  15. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    jasperjones,

    It isn't really that odd. Why would he care what the fans think after the last 13 years? His accomplishments in cinema far outweigh his supposed mistakes.
  16. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Why would he care what his fans think? An artist who doesn't care about their fans won't have many for very long. I've never heard of anyone who ever espouses such a philosophy, it's incredibly self-centred and ungrateful. But that's the ironic part--it's Lucas' accomplishments that the fans are asking for in the first place! So I'm not sure what your argument is here. I've never heard of a guy who refuses to release something he made that hundreds of millions of people love and have been asking for. It boggles the mind.


    Of course they held back on more material. What other excuse can they have to sell these films again to the masses?


    I call major BS on that. Did that stop the Alien Quadrilogy from being definitive? Or the Blade Runner set? Or the Wizard of Oz set? Or the Superman set? Okay, these are top products. Let's try middle products, like 2-disks sets. Citizen Kane, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Ikiru. But those have about three times the amount on the 2004 set. I don't see how you can possibly justify them as ripping off people by withholding stuff so they can double-sell them it when there are a thousand instances of really good DVDs. It's no excuse at all. Instead of being one of the companies that does quality releases, Lucasfilm is one of the company that does mediocre releases so they can rip off their fanbase. Sorry, that's not the nature of the home video business, that's just the nature of Lucasfilm's business. I know they are not the only ones who do this--it's just a shame they are in that company. And it's not something I'm going to pretend is "understandable".
  17. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Jumpman,

    I totally see that he doesn't have to care. I also think he must be blind or pigheaded to a fault not to see the goodwill that releasing the HD versions of the originals would foster within the SW community. I'm sorry but he is doing it to be stubborn. What harm would it do him to be magnanimous? He can still claim that the SE's, as spruced up as many times as he likes, are the only versions he sees as the definitive films. But why not toss the many fans out there a bone by including them on a comprehensive release? He doesn't have to agree with those people but I'm staggered that he would choose to ignore that such sentiments exist. It's small-minded and it's like he's determined to prove a point that doesn't need to be made. He could easily make everyone vaguely happy. He just doesn't seem to want to.

  18. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    zombie,

    How are they ripping you off? I continue to make this statement over and over again; does Lucasfilm make anyone buy these films? That's a personal choice. I don't care how you spin it. You don't have to buy what Lucasfilm offers. The question always comes back to what is the quality material that should be added when these films are released on home video. Every person who's a hardcore fan of Star Wars have their own ideas of what should be included, so are they suppose to take suggestions from the entire fanbase? Seriously?

    For the '04 boxset, we all knew it was done for promotional purposes for Episode III. I don't understand how anyone can get pissed about that. We all knew what it was. We all knew it was rush job considering Lucas was adamant about holding off to do them proper after he was done with Episode III. Why Lucas gave the okay on that, I have no clue. Given that, it's not like he put the '04 box set out with just a commentary and charged 400 dollars for the thing. It has about five hours worth of material that he charged 70 dollars for. Again, you didn't have to buy it, considering what we all knew about the thing. But, it's not a bad set in the slightest. It's solid. He didn't rake us over the coals for the next six years releasing new bits and pieces of materials of the Original Trilogy. The '06 set doesn't count because it's basically unsold '04 discs.

    I just don't see where the rip off has occurred.

    As for caring what the fans think, what has happened in the last 13 years? Theatrical release of the Special Editions and three Prequels. And in that time, you'd thought Lucas sent out stormtroopers to everyone's home and shot everyone's dog with the way the criticism and bile that's been thrown his way. Be critical. But, don't go over the top like a bunch of whiners as if Lucas stole something from you.

    The truth about the guy and the company is the middle-the grey area.

    jasperjones,

    In a way, he now has to prove the point considering how overboard everything's gotten with the Star Wars fanbase. Yeah, Lucas is probably the most stubborn in the industry but part of that stubbornness has gotten him to where he is. He was adamant about visual effects in the 70's/80's/90's and now. He was adamant about finding a new for of editing. He's been adamant on eduction. He's been adamant and stubborn on the quality of cinemas for decades, etc, etc. Frankly, I admire his stubbornness because who the hell knows where cinema would be if this guy didn't push.

    Maybe this argument has passed me buy. I just don't believe the differences between the two cuts are that significant. He barely changed Episode V. He added a dance sequence and extended the ending montage to Episode VI. Episode IV, frankly, needed. Episodes V and VI's visual have never dated. Episode IV's visual effects have dated. To me, it made sense to fix it, properly.

    Question for all, if he hadn't made Greedo shoot first or changed Anakin at the end of Episode VI(visually, I agree with but it's fuzzy on the story front), would you really be bickering about the rest of the changes as they are now for the last thirteen years?

  19. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Look, I'm not pleased about being part of such a contentious fanbase, and I suspect that a fair share of the acrimony wouldn't exist had Lucas made available all versions of the original films. Honestly, how did the remastered version of my beloved The African Queen manage to beat out a proper release of Star Wars? Incomprehensible.

    On edit:
    I couldn't give two figs about the changes. Apart from the Jabba scene--which I chapter-skip anyway--I'm cool with the updates in ANH and TESB. But a lot of folks want access to the movies they grew up with, and they should have it.
  20. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    Of course, it's not the original and it's got 90s cartoon animals, the end. The real mystery is why it's some kind of problem to want the old cuts. It's like it's not enough that you're already going to get a product you will love, everyone else must love it too. That's like Moonie cult talk.
  21. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    The problem is the constant bickering about it when you know the man isn't going to change. Get over it and live a little and enjoy the films for however many days you have left on this planet...

    When the specs come out for this thing, it's going to be a global, glorious, internet melt down when said cuts aren't apart of the specs, which shouldn't surprise ANYONE.
  22. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    We don't know that and neither do you. You don't have any special insight at all, even if it feels like you do. This is just a consumer product issue, there is no reason to hold LFL to a lower standard than other studios. He's not our dad, he's just another company we buy stuff from.
  23. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Unless you want to dig your VHS player out of the basement, you do if you want the films in any format that isn't dead. And they know it too. Yes, you could boycott it, but in any reasonable discussion who is actually going to do that? We love the series so much that we'll take it, no matter what form its in, and the company knows it. And that's why its bad public relations. This kind of argument can be used to excuse any bad form--"what, the release is all pixellated and sourced from a basement VHS tape and it blows up your DVD player when you play it? Well who forced YOU to buy it?" The point is that you shouldn't be releasing such stuff in the first place, you should do it right, and the market is relative: there are many examples which I've listed many times which point to the lacklustre standards of the release.

    I'm sorry, I must have missed that announcement because the announcements I was recieving was the OT on DVD, remastered, the new Special Edition that cost Lucas millions of dollars and tied the Saga together, along with "defintive" documentaries and special features, the titles everyone had been begging for on the format since its inception now finally available in an elaborate box set. (Oh, and a 5-minute Episode III sneak peak.). The way it was presented by the people making it was as a huge deal, and the definitive version of the films. Which is why they were scanned in HD.

    No, we don't. Firstly, the defects came out afterwards, after $100 million in sales on its first day of release. Secondly, no one officially has ever said "it was a rush job." That's essentially a creation of the fanbase to explain why it was so shoddy. And it's no excuse. Rushed, or just crappy workmanship, or George Lucas has poor judgement--the point is you put out a crappy product. I don't care what the reason is. And instead of taking responsibility--FIXING IT--you continued to sell it, again and again, in release after release. When Back to the Future came out in 2003, the aspect ratio was off. They did a recall eventually and put out a corrected version. Good company.

    You really don't? If they are deliberately withholding extras to make you buy the same thing twice--which you admit they are doing--while other companies are giving it all up front, that's called ripping off your fans. It's taking advantage of them because you know they want it now, and you are perfectly capable of giving them it now, but instead you will just give them a bit so that you can charge them again in a couple years. And to top it off, the films have all sorts of coloring issues (and sound issues) that you refuse to fix, so that they have to buy it again to get it corrected--if they DO fix it, which might not even happen. ("Awesome, now I can pay them to fix the broken thing they sold me! Woo!")

    Really, this is just a silly argument. I don't understand how you can't see how deliberately withholding extras to cajole fans into buying the same thing twice is taking advantage of the fanbase that keeps you in business. You seemed to agre
  24. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    [image=http://www.iwatchstuff.com/images/2006/05/star-wars-new-hope-cover.jpg]

    [face_whistling]
  25. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    If the color and audio issues aren't fixed on the definitive BluRay set, I for one will be upset. For now we'll just have to wait and see. As much as some fans should get real, I don't like Lucas hates them. And I'd rather see the original theatrical cuts in full HD as a bonus feature than the same old Behind-the-Scenes footage.