Saga The Official Star Wars Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Fat_Rancor_Keeper, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    ^^ Yeah different strokes for different folks. I prefer ANHR over my DVD of the SE any day.



    Kind of curious that since the initial news broke there hasn't been any further tidbits from anywhere...or even officially.
  2. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Agreed.
  3. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Oh well yeah. Anything beats the 04 set. ANHR is certainly what the SEs should have been, but I can't call it my definitive cut. Great cut, yes but not THE cut I would always watch.

    Still waiting for....that....[face_whistling]
  4. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Don't put words in my mouth. You are moving the goal posts--what made the 2004 set mediocre wasn't that they didn't include every single bit of video they could get their hands on, but that it simply fell short compared to what is a reasonable expectation and standard practice for premium titles and special editions. The standard is at least one disk worth of extras per title. At a a third of that, Lucasfilm dropped the ball, and that's only if you expect that Lucasfilm meets market expectations, rather than exceeding them. I don't see why you continually fail to understand this. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall here.

    Changing the argument again. The discussion is not about the prequels, it's about the quality of the release of the OT films. Whatever else Lucasfilm does doesn't excuse or change the fact that the OT was shortchanged.

    Is this really what your argument was about, in the end? It would certainly explain some things. Aside from the inaccurate assumption made in the first place.

    Now who is picking and chosing? This is irrelavant. The discussion wasn't about whether Clone Wars was done well, or whether the PT was treated well. The discussion was specifically about the release(es) of the original trilogy on DVD. My boxset of the OT doesn't magically change because there is a Blu Ray of the Clone Wars Season 1 in Best Buy.

    Again, if you think the OT set was adequete, then fine. But it's not close to the standards of what is normally produced in a special edition of hugely, hugely important films that have one of the biggest fanbases in the world. Ergo, it's quite understandable that said fans feel disappointed. Especially when the films themselves are so riddled with defects that many other companys would have recalled them, as in the case of Back to the Future. And as to the original versions of the film, I don't really care what Lucas prefers, directors all have their preferences when there are multiple version of the film in existance. Ridley Scott hates the theatrical version of Blade Runner far more than Lucas could possibly dispise his own final cut of the original release of his film, but he included it in the Blu Ray release because a lot of people really liked that version and wanted to see it get included. But aside from this, Lucas already released the original cut in 2006 in response to fan pressure, so any "crusade" has fallen flat already. If you don't like the original cut, fine, but don't rain on the parade of others just because you already got what you want.

    None of these arguments really hold up when you take in the bigger picture and look at the world outside of Star Wars. Maybe that's part of the problem. Lucasfilm almost seems to feel like it lives in a bubble when it comes to these films.
  5. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    zombie,

    This is a Saga forum. My argument was the notion you implied that Lucasfilm doesn't release quality products on home video. I gave examples of recent quality products (the Prequel DVDs and Clone Wars Season One).

    All I'm saying about the '04 box set is to put into perspective, considering the time line. The truth of that box set, between you and I, is somewhere in the middle. It is neither the box set most Original Trilogy fans wanted nor the worst box set released, considering it's price. It's solid, as I've always stated.
  6. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Right, but my argument was always framed in terms of the original trilogy release.

    Again, this isn't relevant--the timeline was fine. It wasn't that rushed. They had a year or more to work on it, which is par for elaborate special editions (which the OT set was not). Even if it was rushed, I'm not sure if there can be a legitimate "perspective" excuse--"considering how little work went into the set, it's understandable that it's not very good." Isn't this the problem in the first place? It's a circular argument even if it were true. And it doesn't change the fact that the films were released with so many problems. Why defend this? Why go out of your way to make excuses for what is clearly subpar workmanship, no matter the causes behind it? It is legitimate to have a complaint here.

    No, it's not. Solid means par, if not better. For a popular, premium title in a special edition boxset with tons and tons of material available to the producers, that translates to a disk of extras per film, and the films themselves without defects. They went 1/3 of the way on the extras, and dropped the ball on the transfer itself. And it was priced the same as sets that went all the way. There's nothing "solid" there, it's mediocre. To make matters worse, they then packaged the 1993 Laserdisk instead of a new transfer of the originals (but you had to buy the same defective SE again), while selling the original boxset in two more defective releases (without the extra disk), only to try to sell the original extras they deliberately withheld in the first place. We'll see if the transfer is the same--I would say it is much more likely to be uncorrected, simply because it was supervised and approved by Lucas himself, and has been screened, broadcast and re-released uncountable amounts of times.

    I don't think Lucasfilm should have to give people the greatest thing in the world just to escape criticism. I'm not a very hard person to please when it comes to Star Wars, I'm already inclined to automatically like whatever they produce. But the extras fell way short. Okay, I'll enjoy what's there, how are the films? No, original version? That's a shame. I guess I can watch the SE, how's it look? Totally ridiculous? Grain too removed, oversharpened, blacks crushed, video noise, colour pop, saturation problems, stars erased, colorless explosions and lasers, pink lightsabers, audio channels missing? Okay, so what was actually done correctly here? Nice looking menus, gotcha. And the set costs $70? Sorry, Lucasfilm didn't pass the grade on this one. I wouldn't call that solid. The Indiana Jones set suffered from the same lack of extras, although it at least had great picture and came from a slightly earlier time period so it wasn't a total disappointment.
  7. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Jumpman, the color on the '04 set was atrocious. Completely below par.

    That alone keeps them in a "missed the boat" category for me. And I'm someone who owns just about every set they've ever released of these films, including the PT.
  8. Todd-Taun Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Longtime poster here who doesn't post often enough to remember his password and login info (I used to be darth_ytse and even had another screen name before that one, LOL).

    Anyways, I saw the "wishlist" article on the DVDActive website today and got me thinking again about a new concept or idea I've been kicking around.

    How about a brand-new technology imbedded in the Blu-ray discs that allows the viewer to "create your own edit"? Here's essentially what I'm talking about:

    From the main menu, there is an option called "Create Your Own Edit". You click on that. It takes you to a series of the more "controversial" changes to scenes from that particular movie, for example, where Greedo shoots first. You can choose whether you want the scene to be as it was originally edited: that Han shoots Greedo from under the table. Or you could add in deleted scenes where they were originally intended to be. That type of thing. Then you hit "Play My Edit" from that menu and it starts the film with those scenes put in the way you want to view the film. Cool, huh?

    Also, I liked the idea about including a documentary about the history of Star Wars merchandising, perhaps hosted by Steven Sansweet. I would take it a step further and--just for this release ONLY--include one of four or five randomly-inserted collectibles (action figures maybe?) to drive the hardcore collectors crazy (but increase your boxset sales, right?). LOL, I know it's funny but I'm actually serious about that!

    Anyway, it's good to be back.
  9. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Todd -

    The create-your-own-edit is a good idea, and actually a basic form of the concept has been toyed with in a lot of DVDs, like the Terminator 2 Ultimate Edition which let the user choose from 3 different edits of the film (or Blade Runner which has I think FIVE).

    The issue, though, is how amenable the powers-that-be on a given film are to the sorts of customization we're talking about. Some filmmakers embrace this sort of thing and push for giving a bigger sandbox for viewers to play in, while others argue that most films are designed with a specific linearity and that switching a piece here and there damages the work's integrity. I think there's a validity to both sides, and I think it depends on the project.

    With SW, I feel that anything that was released in an official cut should be fair game, while it's Lucas's prerogative whether or not to give the option of including deleted scenes. At a bare minimum, the theatrical versions should be included alongside the latest revisions.

    Unfortunately, Lucas's "Special Editions" have not been quite as well-received by his fan-base as those of James Cameron, Ridley Scott, and Peter Jackson, and he seems to have developed a petty insistence that the newest versions be perceived as the only REAL versions of the films.
  10. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    For awhile Lucasfilm seemed pretty keen on video on demand being the way of the future (the way of the future) over blu ray. I wonder if they still are and want to do this blu ray sooner than later, or if they changed their mind and decided people will always want a physical thing to buy.

    I guess a can of worms has been opened with all this endless tinkering (the official tinkering and the not so official). But it would've been nice if the original version could just exist on its own and not just as one of a bunch of variations that people will be sifting through in the future. It's funny that the restored Metropolis has turned up at the same time as all the Avatar hype. Star Wars is a link in a sci-fi chain now, and it's kind of embarrassing to see Lucas (and fans) scrambling to cover it in makeup and botox and keep it at the top of the chain. It's like when an old rock star is desperate to stay cool to the kids. Or the grandparents trying to breakdance at a wedding.
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    ^ LOL

    Ironically, Lucas originally said the SW films would NEVER be on home video, and weren't meant for repeat viewings. Look how far over THAT pendulum has swung...LOL!

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/laserdisc

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/dvd

    (Davisdvd.com used to have a huge listing for the VHS releases as well....but it's offline now.)
  12. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    This reference made me laugh because it's so random. :p

  13. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Don't you mean redundant? :D
  14. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I LOVE this idea. It won't happen. For better or worse, Lucas is probably too stubborn and I'm not sure the technology would exist to see it done effectively. But I love the idea of it. I mean, I like pretty much all of the changes to ANH but I really would rather Han shot first. And I'd love the chance to put a couple of the deleted scenes (Biggs and Luke on Tatooine) back in.

    Lets think about this practically though - I've used "include deleted scenes" as an option on DVDs before and its very much an all or nothing approach. You cant pick which ones you want. And when they are inserted, the DVD pauses for about 2 seconds before the cut-scene inserts itself. I wouldn't want this kind of option with the Star Wars movies - each insert would have to be a clean transition without hesitation. Now I know we're talking Blu-Ray not DVD but I doubt it would be all that easy a thing to achieve. To have the movie play without stuttering as consequence of it inserting the chosen scenes as it plays, you may have to include full cuts of each possible combination the viewer might choose. In ANH for example, if you had every possible combination of the movie that the options to add/remove altered scenes and deleted scenes would give you, the total number of different cuts on the disc would be in the region of hundreds, if not thousands. I don't see how the disc could hold that much. To my mind, admittedly not knowing much about Blu-Ray, that would seem pretty much unachievable on the scale desired.

    I think we should realistically have the following options to view the movie (the OT as example):

    Original Theatrical Edition (Restored)
    1997 Special Edition
    New 201X Edition (inc. whatever new tweaks required/chosen - commentaries included here)
    New 201X Extended Edition - including all deleted/extended scenes - properly inserted into its own cut.
    New 201X Edition - isolated soundtrack
    New 201X Edition - fx isolated audio

    It would be important to keep the deleted scenes, even if reinsterted into a cut, as their own scenes. This way we could have an intro (much like on the prequel dvds) explaing why it was cut, or perhaps a commentary on each instead.

    I dont think the 2004 DVD edition is required and I'm not even sure the 97 special editions are required. Both would really be superceded by any new edition done for this release. The only reason for including the 97 version would be the fact it was released in the cinema.

    Also, as others have said, it would be nice to the films "as shot" without their FX/CGI but I'm not sure seeing the entire cuts minus these elements is a neccessity. Specific scenes here or there would probably suffice for this idea.
  15. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    If you wanted to do branching, I would put the 1997 SE on the same disk as the original theatrical cut. My reasoning is because the 1997 SE used the same color timing as the original release. You wouldn't be able to branch between the original version and 1997 version and the 2004 version because the 2004 version went with an entirely different visual look (not to mention the grain removal, sharpening, etc.). So, you could have a disk with the original release, and the 1997 SE via branching as a fun bonus (don't know much of a market there is for it), with the 2011 release on another disk with the 2004 SE via branching as a bonus feature. They would have to do seperate transfers of the original versions and the new versions anyway, you couldn't branch between them because every single frame was drastically overhauled in 2004.
  16. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    Revisited has a lot of stuff that I don't think would hold up on a big screen (let alone in 3D IMAX), so isn't it likely that the 2011 cut wouldn't be as elaborate as that? Maybe just the 2004 version with minor things and the saber glitches fixed? Or are we looking at a situation where the 3D cut will be farther down the road, like 2013 when they can really go to town on it with the changes and tie it to Jedi 30th anniversary. As the FIFTH official version, making the 2011 box you just bought incomplete. Man, that would be whorey.
  17. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I doubt there will be any major changes. The 2004 release only had minor ones, and it benefitted from having the PT actors available since production on ROTS was occuring. The SE opened this can of worms where everyone has their own fantasy of what the films could be, but I really don't think Lucas has any ambition for such elaborate alterations. I'm sure he'll tweak and shift some things, like how he had the Jabba model re-done and added in the hallway to the Death Star corridor and re-did the lightsabers, but I'm sure if there are any additions they will be of this nature. CG Yoda in TPM will probably be the biggest change, and the only reason that happened was because ROTS was in production and it was a practice exercise.

    Also, Star Wars Revisited was done in standard-def so it wouldn't hold up on a big screen. ESB Revisited is being done in HD, which is the exact same resolution as the digital negative of all the Star Wars films. I would normally say this isn't theatrically viable, but if we ever see Star Wars on the big screen it will be this resolution.
  18. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    Zombie I know it's hard to say really but do you think LFL will at least fix the color issues with the sabers?

    I know for me that's one of those things that pull me out of the films a bit.

  19. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Can they? Absolutely.

    Will they? Depends. As I said before, fixing them means admitting there was something wrong with them in the last release (The whole "Creative Differences" situation), much like the swapped rear audio channels.

    If they are willing to swallow their pride and admit that which everyone else knows, then yes, it'll get fixed.
  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Or they could fix it and still deny any mistakes were made.;)
  21. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    If Lucas can add Luke's scream to ESB one release and then take it away the next release while calling both of them "definitive realizations" of his original vision, I'm sure the lightsabers can be tweaked.

    Of course, once again, the problem is that Lucas supervised and approved the final version, and has seen it screened since it's release IIRC. We may see the "mistake", but Lucas might be totally oblivious to it. I guess we'll see if his underlings got away with pointing it out to him. I mean, almost everyone in LFL that has seen the films must know about it, but two releases, a couple TV specials, some AFI screenings, and 6 years later and it wasn't deemed important. I would think that, given his obsessive-compulsive need to get things just so in these films, had Lucas actually noticed that he gave Vader a pink lightsaber, Luke a green one in ANH, and Ben's "failing saber" still fails, he would demand these mistakes be corrected immediately. If he does notice them but still re-releases them while espousing some perfectionist auteur angle, then he's a bit of a hypocrit. Either way, it doesn't seem to bode well for him.[face_thinking]
  22. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    LOL...but then again, that is a true "creative difference", as opposed to a technical error. There's a difference between him reinterpreting the film, and having the wrong soundtrack coming out of the wrong speaker.
  23. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    i would find it extremely difficult to choose between which out of greedo shooting first and luke screaming in ESB i hate the most :p but an important point is made - Lucas has changed these again in some way subsequently... so to say he'll be stubborn and fail to notice similar errors on the dvd release, technical errors or creative ones, is perhaps a little unfair. I think he'll again look at ways he can improve them. And I feel confident we'll get slightly altered versions of each movie for the blu-ray releases.
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Change, yes.

    Improve? Debatable.
  25. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Lucas did re-make Jabba in ANH for the DVD.