Books The Official TARKIN by James Luceno Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

She likes CUSHING a lot; there's a distinction.

 

Read my sig. No, I do NOT like Tarkin and that isn't changing regardless how many people dare TELL me that I do.

 

Understood.

 

There's something of a defiant streak in you, you know that, don't you?

 

That's because I don't like others Misspeaking FOR me.

 

I thought the first half of the book was excellent, though it does lose a little strength towards the end. The postive aspects are Luceno's writing, Tarkin's rich backstory on Eriadu, how he became integrated into the Empire, and learning more about other Imperial bases. The humble origins aspect of Tarkin's life and his rite of passages in the Carrion were well written, and I thought it was interesting how Sidious felt commonground with that. Luceno integrated some of the elements of Plagueis into the book, and I thought that was a nice nod to the old EU. The book does lag when they have to start chasing the Carrion Spike around, and some of the explanatory dialogue when Vader and Tarkin discuss strategy and how to trap it seemed a little contrived. They have some interesting conversations but I wanted to see Tarkin and Vader's relationship explored a little more, instead of just a brief conversation and Vader ignoring some of Tarkin's attempts at speaking with him. I noticed the book takes a lot of flack for being "boring", but it does pick up toward the end at least. I enjoyed it even in spite of being a little slow.

 

Okay, question. Does this book establish that the Sith have been around for at least 5,000 years in the new canon? That dark place beneath the temple was apparently used by the Sith at one point, but that Sidious is the first being to enter it in five millennia, correct?

So, does this mean that the backstory with Bane illustrated in The Phantom Menace novelization is non-canon, specifically the notion that the Sith came into being 2,000 years before the Classic Era? Or was this already established before Tarkin, in The Clone Wars or some other source?

 

EDIT: Nevermind (I misread the question above)

Anyway, that wasn't the case (that the Sith came to be ca. 2000 BBY) in Legends so I don't see why it would be now. But who knows what the Story Group is planning? We could get something entirely different.

 

Yes to both questions. It's very intriguing.

The date given in the TPM novelization is non-canon, but that wasn't established before Tarkin. I wonder what this means for Darth Ruin.

 

I would like to draw attention to this bit:

"That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders."

"those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders."

"the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders."

(Chapter Nine, page 101 of the hardback)

WAT.

Were the Sith Lords the Jedi Order's founders?

I'm guessing it was probably a typo of "on" (as in, the revenge strategy was the Sith manipulating the Jedi into building their temple over the shrine) but it still made me do a double take. Though that does then imply that the Jedi Order was only founded a thousand years ago, which doesn't make a great deal of sense when combined with the "for over a thousand generations" stuff. Unless, of course, there is distinction in the new canon between the beginnings of the Jedi Knights and the Jedi Order. Could it be that, up to that point, they had only been a loose fraternity? That the "Order" (and the centralization and government oversight that went with it) only formed following their 'final' wars with the Sith?

That's not entirely dissimilar what we had previously with the post-Ruusan period . . . but it'd still be interesting if this time around it was the very first occasion the Jedi had united in such a fashion.

And if it wasn't a typo.

Well.

Then everything just got a lot weirder.

 

I think the intent was to imply that the Jedi Temple is a thousand years old, not the Order itself (though the "Jedi Order's founders" part is a little confusing and makes it sound as if Darth Bane directed his revenge directly at the founders of an Order that was founded during his lifetime at least, I mean what's the pointing in directing it at people who have been dead for millenia?).

And it also suggests, when considering that Palpatine was the first one to enter in five millennia, that every Sith from Bane onwards knew about the shrine but never had access to it, which makes a lot of sense. But I do think that their most closely guarded secret was in fact their own existence, so how could they possibly reveal the shrine if no one even knew of them?

And it also suggests that the Sith were on Coruscant long before the Jedi.

Wow this is a very informative quote, I must say!

 

Well, Legends did what it often did and retconned. Palpatine remembered the founding of a Sith Order 2,000 years before because that was the founding of a Sith Order, Ruin's. It's a Sith organization distinct from the Ragnos/Sadow, Kun, Revan, and TOR orders that came before it, without having even the connections that Kun and TOR had to the original Sith Empire. So it was kind of the case, much in the way the modern prequel Republic had to be a distinct entity from the 1,000 generations old Republic after Episode II, giving us the Ruusan Reformations. I guess I'm just surprised they're already contradicting novelization material, given that Del Rey said they were considered canon except where they didn't align with onscreen information (e.g. Red Squadron attacking the Death Star rather than Blue, Owen not being Obi-Wan's brother, etc). The 2,000 year thing didn't match with Legends because Legends lore came first. That wasn't the case here.

So the date mentioned in the TPM novelization has been rendered non-canon by another novel? Interesting.

 

The TPM novel isn't canon anymore. It's only canon in so far as it is showing scenes from the film. The details like the date for the Sith weren't mentioned in the film and so are legends. Also, the number given in the TPM novel wasn't exactly canon before the deconization; I think there was an explanation to make it all fit but I can't remember it

Honestly I wish the story group would give us a more detailed explanation on how this all works. There are many areas that still aren't clear. It'shouldn't confusing.

 

Del Rey's tweet about the novelizations being canon was false and was posted without story group's permission. Story Group made this clear at celebration.

 

Ah, I hadn't heard that. Good to know.

 

The Legends explanation was that the "New Sith" were founded 2000 years ago.

As I said above, Del Rey's tweet about the novelizations being canon was false and was posted without story group's permission. Story Group made this clear at celebration.

 

Ok, got it! And thanks for clarifying! I'm personally only familiar with the KOTOR and TOR Sith so this was new to me.

 

I'm only reading this now so, I'm sorry if it's been addressed already, but was it known before this book that Armand Isard is [new] canon?
(I am strongly against TCW so if he was in that, it's why I really don't know)

 

Thanks!
That made me giddy. Luceno was a great bridge between canons. Maybe we will see Ysanne in the future.

 

GL once told Leigh Brackett that, "Maybe we should set up some kind of levels of achievement. Ben can say that Luke is now a level 2 and Vader is a 4; 'I was a 6 and the Emperor is a 6, and he's on his way to becoming a 10, which will be a force so powerful in the universe that nothing can stop him. You must stop the Emperor before he achieves the level 10.' Luke has to destroy the Emperor. It does give us a time frame for the future--not only do they have to restore the Republic, but they also have to worry about the Emperor. We're really beginning to set up that situation." Maybe "becoming a level 10" is what Sheev planned to do inside the Sith shrine?

 

I'm gonna admit (lol, 127 pages into this thread) that I am rather dissatisfied with Tarkin purely because it reads like an old canon book. Yes there are some contradictions and changes, but there are so many more "nods" to the old EU it is abundantly clear that Luceno simply didn't understand that he was supposed to distance himself from the EU a bit. Granted, I don't think anyone quite knew what they were doing when he was writing the book, but in my mental NuCanon, Tarkin will not be included. A New Dawn, Aftermath, Lost Stars, Lords of the Sith, all felt like NuCanon, mostly because the stories introduced either The Clone Wars or entirely new planets and entities to the SW Universe. When I learned of the end of Legends, I kind of just wanted it to stay separate from that point forward—minimal borrowing between timelines. I loved the old EU and have read literally every adult novel included in it, but it was something special and hearing the name Armand Isard was really the moment it hit me that Luceno is a great writer, but he is clearly designing this book for the EU, not the NuCanon. It just doesn't flow with the vibe with the NuCanon, if you get what I mean. It's a fun story, for sure, but all the planets and characters and aliens and shipyards and galactic-political situations, etc., feel decidedly a part of the EU.

Okay, that's my rant. Bring back the EU, blah blah blah. Publish Sword of the Jedi, blah blah blah. But if you are going to make an EU book, don't pretend it's part of the NuCanon. It's not and there's no way information in Tarkin will ever impact Rebels or the Sequel Trilogy because it is too entwined with the EU. The Story Group dropped the ball on this book.

 

From what I understand--and I could be wrong--I think Luceno started writing the book before the EU was scrapped. For me it worked as a nice little bridge between the continuities, helping to ease me in to the idea of this brand new canon. It had nice nods to the EU I loved, but then there are clearly new things that are exclusively "New Canon" concepts, like the current state of the Jedi Temple, and the references to The Clone Wars made it feel very "New Canon" to me.

It also might have to do with when I read it. I read it about a year ago with this new canon was still a new concept. Now that I've read so many other new canon stories, it might feel weird reading Tarkin again and having it full of EU references. At the time that I read it, I liked it.

 

I'm 70% of the way through. Do I finish, or ditch it for Aftermath and the TFA novelisation? Leaning towards ditch... it hasn't been particularly interesting so far.

 

Finish. 1) You're nearly done and 2) that's when things started to pick up (for me).