The Official TFN Archive Thread: Jan update!

Scary!

Seriously, I can't think of anyone who would do a better job. You've been a HUGE part of fan fiction ever since I can remember (of course I'm old and my memory isn't what it used to be!) and I know you've got what it takes for the insanity. Congrats on a well deserved honor. You'll do the Archives proud; they're lucky to have you and so are we!

 

The shiny buttons are very shiny indeed, Jieh. Must remember not to touch the self-destruct...

Thank you, Nat and Idri! Shush, Bri. Aw, thank you, Kim. That's really sweet of you to say.

 

Just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in.

 

Welcome back, Jade.

Now about that empty queue ....... I admit to being one of those not adding to the queue for reasons that I've pondered for awhile. The long story....

The last story I submitted was awhile ago. A short one-post, maybe 2,600 words. I got 2 betas and submitted it.

The reviewers loved it, but they had to reject it for typos.

I got two more betas. Fixed the typos that the betas (one of the reviewers even helped since he/she couldn't review again) could find. And then screwed up and sent in the old file by mistake when I resubmitted.

The reviewers loved it, but they had to reject it for typos.

I got two betas for the corrected file. This time I submitted the right file.

The reviewers did not find any typos (yay) but rejected it for style reasons and had some suggestions that I found .... somewhat unhelpful.

Now, at this point I'm thinking that I've done three times the work that one might do for a single submission, but it's no go.

I wonder if it's the story, but if it is there's no point in going back because I didn't really have any better stories than that one.

And there is clearly a random factor going on. If any two of the first four reviews had been on it for the third try it would have been accepted. It's just the luck of the draw about who reviewed when.

The reviewers only have 'accept' or 'reject'. There's no 'accept, but fix all those typos', or 'accept, but fix that' button. There is no cumulative editing, which is what you would normally get if you were submitting to any print editor.

There is ZERO incentive or encouragement to re-submit anything, even if it was rejected just for typos. If you're rejected, resubmitting is just as much work as if you're submitting something new. And there is just as much chance that the next reviewers will find some new issue with the story that the previous ones didn't.

Now I'm thinking about the time.

- I can resubmit a 4th time with the random editing risks mentioned above
- I can work on new stories
- I can post the rejected story on another web site.
- I can fix my lightsaber or other costume things....

Now, I'm awful at finding typos, even with two betas, so I'd likely have to resubmit things twice at least. So, I spend my time on the other options rather than submitting at all.

Adding other option for reviewers, 'Accepted, but ....' or 'Rejected, but ....' would require tech support that probably isn't available, but I can't think of any other way of reducing the random factors in submitting to the Archives.

 

I have a couple SHORT stories I'd love to submit, but my past experience has left me... well, not really 'up' to it.

 

You'll eventually be pulled back in too, Face. Just you wait and see.

It's just Gabri, ardavenport. No need to be formal.

That's right. There have been a few informal provisional acceptances in the Archive's history; they have almost inevitably resulted in disgruntlement and resentment all around. The staff has long since decided that retaining the straight up "yes or no" answer to a submitted fic is the best course we can take, and that's not something that's going to change.

Actually, I'm aware of quite a few cases of otherwise exemplary submitted fics that were rejected for important but very minor issues, and when the reviewers submitted their rejection notices to the editors, they included a request that we add a note to the rejection letter saying that the reviewers felt that only minor fixes were needed and to please contact them for further information. In all such cases, the editors have done so. Everyone has always been welcome to submit their stories, including multiple resubmissions. Additionally, authors may contact their reviewers personally for insight regarding the rejection, and most of the time the reviewers are happy to reply.

That said, I'm sorry, but it's honestly not the Archive's job to specifically encourage resubmission, any more than it's the staff's job to serve as additional beta readers via a provisional acceptance statute. We try very hard to be open and friendly with authors and we have very consciously tried to demystify the Archive; two examples that spring to my mind are this thread and ophelia's Unofficial FAQ article. A tremendous amount of time and work was put into both of those behind the scenes by all of the Archive staff before the thread was started or the article was written and posted. We work hard to make the Archive the best it can be, and to make it accessible to the greatest possible number of people. However, there will always be stories that are rejected, and there will always be those who disagree with certain aspects of the Archive and its processes. That's the nature of the beast.

Someone on the JC - YodaJeff, maybe? - for a long time included the following line in his sig: "The JC cannot be all things to all people." The same goes for the Archive. This is not meant to be discouraging, but is a simple statement of fact. If an author feels he or she would react badly to rejection, if he or she truly needs extra encouragement from the staff to submit or re-submit, if he or she dislikes or prefers not to spend time on the process of proofreading and revision, then we're probably just not where that author will have the most fun. As both ophelia in her article and you in your post here point out, there are lots of other sites and archives on the web for people who prefer a different process.

 

I've gotten so many rejections from the Archives that it has become a running joke between a friend and I (who also happens to be one of my betas). But honestly, looking back, all of those rejections helped me hone my writing skills. It was painful, make no mistake about it, but I learned something from each and every one. Just because a story is rejected doesn't mean it isn't good, it just means that it's not right for that particular Archive. Usually, a reviewer will be quite happy to share with you exactly why a piece is rejected (beyond the "typos" or "plot" or whatever). I've never had a reviewer who wasn't willing to elaborate on their reasons for rejecting a piece, even had a few who were willing to lend a hand if I wanted to re-submit. As far as resubmission, that really depends on the reason it was rejected. If it's a plot point and you really feel that is how the story HAS TO BE, then leave it alone and forget the Archives. If it's for mechanics or something you feel you can change and still be true to your muse, then I encourage you to keep trying if you feel it's an important goal to achieve. I will say that submitting something makes you very aware of your writing, which is a very good thing.

 

*Thinks and chooses words very carefully*

Perhaps the Archive needs a 'PR' boost? And we need to revise the Beta readers list, or make it more visible? The idea that the 'que' is actually empty (something unheard of) make be something to consider, in the idea that perhaps a lot of people are a little jaded.

My first experience with the archive was... not pleasant (bear in mine this was many years ago). I was a fairly insecure new author as it was, but the feedback I got back then can be summed up with the phrase 'you can't write - don't bother anymore.' (I'm being very broad here, but this was the experience in the nut shell) I eventually did start writing again, and even have at least two stories in the archive, but on the flip side, I've also seen authors with more talent in one paragraph than I have in 20K words sent terse rejections with the overall idea that their story just blew goats because it was different.

So, perhaps instead of just saying 'well, that's how it is' and bemoaning the lack of submissions, start a poll and a discussion to find out "WHY" people aren't submitting?

Make it multiple choice,* and ask some pretty awkward questions, even if they may seem 'trite' (ie - 'I think the reviewers don't like this type of storymy character type', I'm afraid of what they'll say', 'the Archive only takes stories from particular authors') - they may seem silly, and insignificant to you, but a simple misunderstanding on the part of the writing community may be the very reason the que is empty.

Just a thunk -


BTW - I used to subscribe to the TFN Archive list but it seems to have been taken over by spammers, (I mean, REAL spammers - like 'earn a degree from home' spammers!' So it all goes to the junk bin.)

*By keeping it anonymous, you're more likely to get honest answers...

 

If a reviewer said something like that then that's definitely a problem with THAT reviewer. And as the reviewers and editors seem to change on a fairly regular basis one can only hope that that particular reviewer is either no longer reviewing OR has learned how to give constructive criticism. A poll might be a good idea, but I would bet, just going on my own feelings and experiences, that simple anxiety is the answer. It puts you in a very vulnerable spot to hand your work - the words you sweated and agonized over - to someone and ask them to essentially pick it to shreds. It hurts, it's painful, and it can be mortifying. Believe me, I know. I might have the record for rejections. I told my friend Gina that they only accepted my first piece to keep me out of their submission files for a while. There IS somethingt to be said for persistance.

Also, let's be honest, these forums are a lot less active than they were a few years ago. Fewer stories are being posted, and that automatically means fewer writers submitting to the Archives.

I can only go by my own experiences, however, and express my thoughts on those. Rejected or accepted, I've not truly had a BAD experience with the Archives. I won't say I've always agreed with the reasons I've been given, but writing is such a subjective and personal process that I don't expect to. When we write, we put a bit of our hearts and souls into it, and it's no wonder it slices right through us when someone tells us "No." But for me that can't steal the joy from writing, because that's found in the process of doing it, of putting the words together. And there is the fact that if only one reviewer rejects it, it goes to an editor, which keeps a single reviewer from having the final say in the fate of the submission. Which is a fair process, I think. If two out of three people don't really think the piece is right for the Archives, then I, as a writer, must look at my work more closely to see if I either agree (and if it can be "fixed" or must stay as it is), or don't agree. In the end, it's mine and I have to do what my muse tells me to do. Either move on or try to resubmit.

 

Kim, thank you. You've summed it up perfectly with that sentence. All authors: If your story is rejected from the Archive and you like it just as it is and don't want to change it, don't. We work hard to make this Archive one of the best, but we're not the be-all and end-all for fanfic. I guarantee that there's a place for absolutely every story somewhere on the web.

The staff has been keeping PR in mind - well, from the beginning, to the best of my knowledge. We certainly actively worked toward making ourselves accessible and dispelling misconceptions the entire time of my last stint, and I was on staff for nearly three years. ophelia wrote her very detailed Unofficial FAQ with that in mind, and with the help of all the staff. There have been periodic discussions on the reviewer board as to how we're perceived in the greater community and what steps we could take to improve any flaws or perceived flaws. This thread was born of one of those discussions, and has, I think, been a valuable resource for all concerned. We've also included the community in tweaks to the Archive when such was feasible, like when we posted on this thread asking for suggestions regarding expanding the character list. Additionally, I suspect that all staff members would be happy to discuss Archive matters via PM if someone was more comfortable approaching someone privately; certainly the editors would do so. I do assure you, PR is something that we take into consideration frequently.

I'm going to copy and past a comment regarding the beta readers list from MariahJade2 much earlier in this thread:

Well everyone should know that the Beta-list at the Archives is just a list service and it's not actually something we have control over other than maintaing the list. Basically, anyone can sign up to be a beta-reader so we can't vouch for the quality. It's really there for those who can't find someone to help them. If you or anyone you know is a good beta and would like to offer your services, do sign up and add your name to the list. It's also important to remember that you don't need to use anyone on that list as your beta-readers. You are free to obtain your own two beta's for the submission.

I can't say it much more clearly than that. We're not in a position to vouch for or control the quality offered by individuals on that list. I personally would suggest not using it, for that reason. The beta readers list is a carry-over from the time the Archive was first started, when the fanfic community was smaller and closer-knit, and there was a high likelihood that only those who were truly interested in doing the job (and were relatively qualified to do so) would join the list in the first place. We've left that time period very far behind. The list remains as a courtesy for those very rare authors who don't know how else to find a beta, nothing more.

May I suggest that the fandom-wide lull following RotS probably has just a little more to do with it? I'm sure you've noticed all the fanfic boards slowing down. Quite a few people I used to see regularly seem to have disappeared entirely. Many people aren't especially thrilled with the Clone Wars or the latest novels, and have moved on to other fandoms. Breezy, I was on staff for what was perhaps the busiest time in the Archive's history and not on staff for its gradual slowing down period; my own sensibilities in this area are a little off at the moment. However, the editors do keep monthly records of how many stories are submitted. Reading theses records was one of the first things I did

 

I ONLY offered my post as an observation, not as an attack on the Archive or it's processes, much as ardavenport did, only suggestions and nothing more.

*back to primarily lurking, and the occasional post*

 

And in return, I offered explanations. Such dialogue between staff and non-staff is, after all, the whole reason for this thread. Your observations are entirely welcome at any time.

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my other post: spam on any of the lists has probably been greatly reduced at this point; Atty and Anthony were doing something about that, IIRC. I know that the spam for the editors' lists has been reduced to unheard of levels. I'd guess the coast is clear, though Atty may want to chime in to clarify that.

 

very cool - with apologies for probably coming across as a mega grouch (Hush you in the back!) - it's been a... 'trying' week, and *everything* bugs me! ESPECIALLY Doctors, and clinics who tell you that they 'can't discuss test results over the phone' but won't even tell you when you go in!! &^%$#!

ANYWAY. To prove that I'm not spoiling or carrying a axe, I WILL submit a couple of my works that I think are interesting and well written enough for consideration (No worries, "Dear Tam" and it's 60K plus word count isn't one of them!) - why the heck not? No worries in either case as they are happy 'archived' on the boards and elsewhere if they don't 'fit'.

Oh yeah - I COULD use a couple beta readers who would take a few once overs, and make sure that everything's ok...


SO! Dear folks, can we either revive or restart the Beta reader thread? If the one from the archives is outdated, it would be nice.



*That being said - I stand by my BreezyB***yness in tho other thread, but that's a whole 'nother animal, and besides, I think I was veryrestrained!

Edited because I can't type.

 

Weeeeeeeelllll, then it shouldn't be such a big surprise that the queue is empty. By not encouraging resubmission or even providing guidance for it in the 'Get Archived', the Archive actively DISCOURAGES new submissions.

Assuming that an editor sees a story that can be used, but it isn't quite 'there' yet, editing is best and most constructive for all when it's cumulative. When the feedback goes both ways. The writers are rewarded with learning how to sharpen their skills and a better chance of being published; the editor is rewarded with a publishable story at the end of the process. That is how print editing is done.

The current 'live' or 'die' review process is basically one-way. If a story is accepted then that's it; it's in. If it's rejected, the writer can ask why and get some feedback. But if the goal was to get the story in the Archive, the feedback may or may not help since the next reviewer may come up with new issues for the story.

AND a resubmitted story is treated exactly like a new one. There is no credit given for it having been beta-read when it was submitted the first time.

And I wonder ...... shouldn't a link to such a handy reference as the Unofficial TFN Fanfic Archive FAQ be posted somewhere under the 'Get Archived' section? Maybe in the guidelines? Where is can be most easily found by someone wanting to submit a story?

 

No apologies necessary, Breezy, but I appreciate it, and I'm glad to hear you'll be submitting again. Reviving the beta thread would be an excellent idea, IMO, but since that's JC stuff and not strictly Archive stuff, maybe one of the mods would be interested in reopening it if it's locked?

It's not a big surprise. As I said to Breezy, my comment about that was meant to be an offhand and lighthearted joke. I fully expected the Archive to be slower this far past RotS and Atty had told me that it had slowed down before I was ever repromoted. I disagree strongly that the Archive is in any way actively discouraging new submissions, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

We are not a print zine. We are not a professional publishing house. We are one of very many online archives for fan fiction that is being run by amateurs. We try to hold ourselves to a high standard, but that standard is not at a professional level and never will be. It's not what we are, and the majority of our staff, past and present, are not professionals in the field, and therefore probably aren't qualified to maintain that standard anyway. I sincerely hope that few people expect that from us, because we're just not going to deliver. Sorry. I agree with you that editing is best and most constructive when it's a two-way street, but that's what the beta process is for, not the Archive.

That's right. Which is why simply "getting something in the Archive" is never a good goal. Archive staff have been saying that from the beginning. Write for yourself. Write for an audience if you so choose; you're guaranteed to find one somewhere on the web. The Archive is a fringe benefit and should not be anyone's primary goal. We certainly don't pretend to be such a thing.

Well, yeah. Because the entire point of the reviewing process is, "Is this story qualified to be archived?", not "Has the author had it proofread *some arbitrary number* times?" The reviewing process is in some ways subjective, because it involves evaluating art. There is no way to make that sort of thing fully objective no matter what objective guidelines you use as a baseline, and if we did, we'd be gutting the art itself. Art touches every person differently; that includes Archive staff. Even if we could mandate their sensibilities, we wouldn't.

That may well be a possibility. We'll discuss it. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, that just doesn't sound like it came out right. If "getting something in the Archive" is not a good goal, and the one-way nature of the review process limits the quality of the review for the writer, what's the advantage to submitting to the Archive at all? Writing and posting stories to the boards is done for the the author's fulfillment. Why not just do that?

 

Honestly? As I understand it, the point to the Archive when it was first founded was threefold: 1) To have fun with fanfic in general, 2) to hopefully gather a collection of high quality fics in one place, so that a reader could presumably click on any story there and be assured of a good read, and 3) for the somewhat questionable, entirely intangible, and all-in-good-fun e-prestige involved in having a story accepted through a juried review process. (And I sincerely hope that all concerned know exactly what e-prestige is worth.)

Thus, you're exactly right that no one has to submit anything to the Archive to be fulfilled as an author. Damn straight. You can love the Archive, you can hate it, you can be entirely indifferent to it, you can think it's secretly run by reptoids intent on taking over the earth, and you can still be fulfilled as an author. That's up to each and every individual.

Bear in mind that I and all the other staff do encourage every author to try to improve upon their writing. Improved skill is always a good and fulfilling thing, and those of us who actually apply to be on staff are kind of geeky anyway in that we enjoy analytical reading. We really really want to read great, polished stories. We get a geeky, geeky thrill out of it. But improvement is up to the author, and aided by betas, and often ordinary readers, as well. The Archive's only role in that is in setting a random goal for authors, and in the authors' own striving to achieve that goal.

Realistically, the Archive is here to stand as a place to showcase your fics, should you choose to submit them, and should the staff feel that those stories are up to snuff in accord with our established standards. Nothing more. I'd like to think that we're a fun place. I think it's a cool touch that you get cover art. But if you're not having fun, we would encourage you to find another place for your fics - not because we want to get rid of you, but because we do want you to have fun. Not everyone is going to have fun with the Archive, for various reasons (among them, the somewhat nebulous benefits of getting archived in the first place). I will do my best to make the Archive the best it can be, to reach out to authors, and to encourage people to participate because I do think it's fun, but I will never tell anyone that this Archive is the greatest thing ever and to be a happy and accomplished author you must be archived. It's not true.

On the other hand, if you just want a relatively low pressure place to share your stories, with the added benefit of cover art and a dash of unimportant e-prestige, then you've probably found your place. Get submittin', folks.

ETA: Clarity.

 

Just to chime in on the more technical aspect of things.

A few months ago Anthony changed all the Archive emails to a new domain name. And so far that new domain hasn't been widely distributed. So now all the spammers that have the old addresses are sending out mail that's going nowhere. The lists, then, have been kept relatively clean since.

One of the reasons why the Unofficial FAQ was created was because the editors at the time did not have access to edit the official FAQ. This has since been, recently, rectified. We are now in the process of rewriting the o-faq, and trying to figure out what we want to include in it. This may be some sections of the u-faq, while other things might be best to keep in a u-faq. We're also currently debating on how useful the submission guidelines and style guide are as separate pages and wondering if all the info in them should just be in the easier-to-find faq. Either way it ends up, the faq will end up listing the links to more information, whether that be the remainder of the u-faq, the style guide or what-have-you.

As for the beta reader list, it is what it is. We list a link to it in either the faq or the submission guidelines, I think, and that will remain the case in the new version. There isn't much more that we can do with it to keep it advertised and available. Ideally we could have a list where all betas were properly screened and had to beta so many stories a month to stay on, but think about how much work that would be in upkeep. It would take once and again the staff of the Archive to keep working right. And frankly, the Archive is a fic archive, not an editing service. If someone goes and builds a beta site, we'd link to it. Hell, we'd be affiliates and sister sites if they wanted. Until then, we offer you only a small helping hand in that direction.

As to the rest, I agree with Gabri completely, and wish I could post my arguments as eloquently as she. The Archive was created to fill a certain niche within the fandom. People wanted a different way to post and find fic. Sites like here and ff.n are great in that they allow everyone to post, but there's very little in the way of quality control. I've found some on the best fic on ff.n. And I've also found some of the worst

Readers wanted a place where they could sit down and read a fic without being worried about if it was going to be legible. Authors wanted a challenge. They wanted to write the best fic they possibly could, and they wanted to know that their fic was a cut above the rest. This is where the e-prestige of the Archive comes from - not from the ability to have a cover, nor the fact that it's at tf.n - but because having a fic archived is a testament to the author's rise to this very challenge. And the challenge is not only writing a good fic, but the having ability to put it out there to be judged on its own merits by people who aren't friends and who don't owe the author a thing. It's the ability to deal with the fear of rejection, too, and the ability to learn from it should it occur. That's something to be proud of. That's an accomplishment in itself.

 

The Archive reviewers have generally been helpful for me, some extra-specially so. But that time-wasting, one-way, one-size-fits-none interface between author and reviewer/editor......ugh. Not fun at all.

 

Update, January 31, 2010:

Happy New Year!

We'd like to start off this new year with something a little bit different. While waiting for new fics to appear, each month we'll be presenting some older archived fics that you either missed or might enjoy reading again in our Flashback series. Every Flashback will have a different unifying theme - character, genre, tone, recurring elements. Be on the lookout for the especially random!

This month we throw the spotlight on the real hero of the Star Wars Saga: Artoo-Detoo!
[image=http://fanfic.theforce.net/graphics/ficsother/flashback-r2d2.png]


Vengeful Artoo:
[image=http://fanfic.theforce.net/graphics/covers/833.jpg]

Death of a Mouse-Droid by Lady Padme
A new droid brings utter chaos to the Solo household. Told from C-3PO's point of view.

Loyal Artoo:
[image=http://fanfic.theforce.net/graphics/covers/1330.jpg]

In the Line of Duty by leia__naberrie
a.k.a. ?The Things I Do for You?? Probably an AotC missing moment. Definitely a small snap-shot that illustrated the devotion R2-D2 has for his first mistress.

Romantic Artoo:
[image=http://fanfic.theforce.net/graphics/covers/2034.jpg]

The Things We Do for Love by LianaMara
How far is R2-D2 willing to go for love? A quirky mechanical romance.

Don't love Artoo as much as you obviously should? Well, then, who is your favorite droid? Go vote in our new poll.

C-3PO
Guri
HK-47
IG-88
Mouse Droids
PROXY
R2-D2
R4-P17
Trade Federation Battle Droids
Whistler

In staff news, please join me in welcoming our new reviewer, Solaé (aka Bri_Windstar)!

 

Congrats, Bri! (You crazy girl )

Really like the flashback idea. Should be a great way to introduce some old favorites to a newer audience!

 

I LOVE the idea of a Flashback series! And Artoo is totally a great character to start the first one off with. Anyone who can flip a flapjack like that 150 some years later is ace in my book.

The Things We Do For Love is such a good story, and I've always loved the cover art Liana does. It's a personal favorite of mine.

Thanks Vi! I'll try not to burn the place down, but I make no promises.

 

I can definitely feel for the people who are disenchanted. Personally, the tmes that I've been rejected, I've found the staff to be helpful and I almost immediately know whether or not I want to go through the trouble of resubmitting. THe reasons I don't have anything in queue are this: 1) I am waiting for a second beta to be finished on the epic to end all epics that I've been told is too long anyway... 2) I've got a 5-part series that I'm waiting for betas to be finished on the first and second parts of so I can know if I want to try and submit the whole thing at once or as stand-alone series and 3) Yeah...I've submitted everything so far that I think is worth reading at the Archive from my collection.

 

I wanted to chime in on the "Accept" or "Reject" only standard at the Archive brought up by ardavenport. As soon as the editors or reviewers can "Accept with conditions" there is potential that an author may feel like 'we'll accept your story only if you change it like this...' And this becomes a slippery slope. Basically, it is not our job to find and edit mistakes. If we do that for one story over another, the editors and reviewers may get burned for favoritism. So an error-riddled entry that's good on the merits of the storytelling has to be rejected cleanly; the grey middle ground of accepting with conditions is far worse in the long run for public perception. The editors determined this was the fairest way.

 

I've been debating whether or not to post here, mostly because a lot of my archive experiences have been pretty bad. But... here goes.

I have submitted a number of times in the past. Every time I get rejected, I ask the reviewers for more specific reasons beyond the form letter. Sometimes I get them, sometimes not. I then do my best to get it re-betaed, making sure they know the reasons rejected. I send it back in, corrections made... and it gets rejected. Again.

Sometimes, the reasons for rejection were contradictory. One reviewer said my fic was too long. So I trimmed it, sent it back in and it got rejected. I ask and the reviewer told me... the fic was too short.

I am right now working my way through the fourth or fifth beta of a fic, almost rewriting it from the ground up. And I'm wracked with indecision about actually submitting it. Because I'm putting a lot into it. And I mean a lot.

So... yeah. I've heard of the old method of submissions, where the reviewer actually betas it for you. With the queue empty... a possibility?