Lit The Official The Old Republic: Revan Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    There are two things wrong with this post. The first being that it completely is misrepresenting Revan's action as inherently selfish when that is not the case completely. The second being that you continue to make the utterly amazing logical leap that Bastila was completely without help.

    Coincidentally, the latter argument also assumes something of a lack of capability on Bastila's own part. We factually know, for instance, that she is able to adequately hide herself through the Dark Wars and maintains connection with Carth. And yet, we're suppose to now sit back and believe that Bastila was so emotionally paralyzed that she was not able to deal with things and, better yet, we're suppose to assume that she has no support when we know she's keeping in touch with former comrades? Yeah, I don't buy it.
  2. tjace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2008
    star 4
    Alyx: I'm sure DWH would agree that Bastila is getting support, if offscreen. It seems to me though, that her problem is that we don't see it: it's not so much a storytelling issue of show vs. tell as much as it is not saying anything about it at all and leaving it to the reader.

    At least, that's what I understand from her argument. She's free to shoot me down if I'm incorrect.
  3. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    The thing is that I really don't have an issue with wanting it to be shown. I have an issue insofar as her argument wrongly presumes weakness on Bastila's part because it wasn't.
  4. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    I thought it seemed like weakness. Her character was completely off in this book.

    EDIT: At this point this is a cyclical argument. We're on two sides of a fence throwing the same stone back and forth.
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Going by the novel, I don't see weakness, either. At worst, at the beginning of part2 when Meetra and Bastila meet, it's not passive at all. Maybe passive aggressive. At worst, but I liked the introduction of the Exile - Savior, etc. but however big she may have become, the Exile was going to have to wait until Bastila was ready.

    I don't care if you ARE Revan redux - you are going to wait until my baby eats and poops and is put to bed.
  6. Foltliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2010
    star 2
    I would have called DHW's remark sexist if she was a guy. Even still, to suggest that Bastila is needing of direct support is disrespectful not only to women but to all single parents. I was raised by my single father, and I had three older sisters. Despite the fact that he worked anywhere from 40 to 70 hours a week to keep us under a roof, he still made us feel loved and raised us well. I have no doubts Bastila was able to do the same.

    The only difference between Revan's choice and that of troops who die overseas is that most Earth-born soldiers aren't the only person who can save the entire galaxy from imminent destruction. It's what Revan set out to do and it's what he did. It cost him his life - in by causing his death, but by literally costing him all those years.

    On a slightly related note, I'm certain Satele and Malgus willbe a part of the final battle when it comes.
  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Thank the Force that Revan simply woke up one morning to find a horse's head next to him on the bed... at least the Mafia are polite enough to let people know in advance. Had he been working for MI6, he'd just have disappeared one day without any explanation at all. :p
  8. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    Perhaps. But I'd say there is something of a double standard at play. Plenty of people want to get angry at Revan leaving Bastila and Vaner behind to investigate what he sees as a pressing danger against the galaxy itself but in the same breath they also suggest that Bastila leave her child behind...to search for Revan. A search, mind you, that she has no measure of knowing the success of and is just as likely to end as poorly as Revan's.

    Now, we can sit here and consider whether or not that decision would make her characterization more consistent or add to the book quality (someone had a nice suggestion that the ghost helping Revan should have been Bastila and not the Exile, for instance, which I thought was a great idea). I'd say those questions are fair entirely But I would say that it's a bit disingenuous to criticize Revan's decision regarding his family and then to suggest that Bastila do the exact same thing.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Well that's the understatement of the year.
  10. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    First off, define what you mean by "double standard" there, because you're vaguely implying something that could go a few different ways.

    Second, I never said I was angry at Revan. I'm angry at Drew K. for portraying Bastila as a completely different character than she was depicted in the game. And I didn't suggest Bastila do anything in this thread. But in that other Revan thread we've got going on elsewhere on the board, I did mention Bastila should have gone after Revan. Just because she has a kid doesn't mean she's anchored to the couch watching holovids and the baby. If she was anything like Leia and Mara, she'd be out and about trying to discover what happened to Revan. Her career as a hero shouldn't stop because she has a kid.
  11. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Hey guys, is this book worth buying? I already know of some spoilers, so is it worth it to buy it?
  12. GrandMasterKatarn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2008
    star 4
    Depends on if you love KOTOR and KOTOR2. If you did, no, it's not worth buying. If you didn't like the games, then yes.
    darth fluffy likes this.
  13. Commander-DWH Shiny Costuming & Props Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2003
    star 4
    I'm pretty much with Barriss on this one. I could sit here typing the same stuff until I'm blue in the face, and you guys can too, but Darth Real Life is being particularly harsh at the moment, so arguments about a poorly written book have fallen pretty low on my priority list. Sorry if that comes off as a cop-out, but suffice to say when I write the same time period, I'm doing it differently. If you liked the way it was portrayed, more power to you, I guess. Saves you the time of being annoyed at it.
  14. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    I meant it solely in regards to statements of umbrage for Revan leaving in combination with statements decrying Bastila for not leaving.

    And? Attitudes don't really exist in a vacuum. It's abundantly clear that people wanted Bastila to do something (or, rather, they wanted to see it explicitly) and I'd dare say it's pretty clear that they wanted her to rush off after Revan. At the very least, you've expressed the desire.

    Which is a fair enough desire in and of itself but once it crops up in conversations which are all about how upset we are that she seems so obsessed with Revan or when people are decrying Revan's abandonment of his family, it starts to ring a bit hollow. "How dare Bastila be obsessed with a man who abandoned her family...she should totally abandon her family to look for her man!"

    And just because she had a kid, I don't know why you assume she did absolutely nothing ever than stay at home and watch soaps. Bear in mind that the times we see her, she is either: a) barely pregnant with her child, b) just coming out of hiding from the Dark Wars or c) an old woman. In the first two, yes, she is busy being a mother but her kid's also really young so it is reasonable for her to stay.

    There's an entire interim in between B and C in which she can do any number of productive things for the Republic or even the Jedi, seeing as the organization is being rebuilt more liberally. That it isn't shown or mentioned may be bad writing but then again the novel is called 'Revan' and not 'Bastila'. Beyond that though, there's plenty Bastila can do in Republic space. Arguably more since her strongest ability is battle meditation. And for us to assume she did nothing, which is not quite an assumption we must grant entirely, we have to similarly ignore and marginalize her in the same fashion we want to accuse Karpyshan of doing.

    I'd say even if you like the games, it is worth reading at the very least. If only to get the canonical conclusion. I would however, advise waiting for a paperback or looking at a library. I wouldn't buy the hardcover.

    It does, but you're forgiven. [:D]

    Okay? Um, have fun?

    For the record: I'm sticking with my own headcanon on this matter, which comes from a another story I read which I thought covered the material better. But still...I get it...you write fanfiction..

    Does it really have to be such a dichotomous affair? Either we love it or we hate it? I, for one, think that Drew dropped the ball magnificently with Bastila in this novel. That doesn't stop me from disagreeing with some of the moral aggrandizement throughout this thread.
  15. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Y'know, a part of me seriously thinks this book would have been better received had it been a Choose Your Own Adventure in the vein of The Lost Jedi.

    (RIP Havet :()
  16. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Alyx: We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Again, we're tossing this stone back and forth. I was miffed by the way Bastila was portrayed. I think she should have gone after Revan. I never said she should leave her family. A mother doesn't have to be tied to her kid 100% of the time.

    But clearly whatever I say you'll disagree with, so I'm out. But I leave you all with this line:

    That ain't KOTOR Bastila. And Bastilla only went downhill from there.
  17. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Creeping Krath Hounds! Is that really from the book?
  18. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    Why is it that every time I hear "Let's agree to disagree", it sounds a lot more like "I don't want to take the time to adequately defend my position"?

    These things seem pretty mutually exclusive. "I only said she should be willing to leave known space to look for her husband. I didn't say she should leave the family she had behind!". Sure...

    Once again ignoring the gallons of dripping irony that comes with liberation talk before demanding that the character we want to see liberated rush off to find her hubby-kins...

    Honestly, I'm still more insulted by your ugly assumption that because the book didn't take the time to outline every single thing Bastila did in her live post-Revan, it necessarily follows that she did nothing of worth. The fact that your mind jumps to that conclusion is regrettable.

    Except for the numerous times where I stated I shared similar sentiments regarding failed potential insofar as utilizing her character well, I assume. But acknowledging that wouldn't make your post sound dramatic, would it? Or give you pretensions to whatever you perceive as the moral high ground.

    Selective manipulation of context is also not compelling argumentation. She's specifically waiting at home for Revan to tell him that she's pregnant. Revan even wonders if she'd been waiting long..which sort of implies, you know, that she doesn't just sit on her rear all the time.
  19. DarthRevan211 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2008
    star 1
    Beaten to it, but this quote is completely taken out of context.

    Look, I can do the same thing.

    Ugh! Bastila's such a dependent woman! She needs to feel "safe" in the arms of the big strong man! BAD, SEXIST KOTOR!

    It's ridiculous.

    This type of thinking kind of serves as a message to a lot of people that they have to stop looking at what they think is being portrayed and actually look a little deeper below the surface, rather than be offended at something that isn't really there.

  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    This is why Carth had much better characterisation.

    Because I could pull any quote entirely at random and still think he was a whiny dweeb. :p
  21. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    I could requote every line Bastila was in. Hell, the epilogue was horrendous. This time context has nothing to do with it.
  22. KnightDawg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2007
    star 4
    THIS!!! DK did an outstanding job of giving the middle finger to all of the fans of KOTOR I, KOTOR II, Revan, Bastila, and the Exile. But like GMK posted, if you've never played the games, the book is probably pretty decent. The book should've been title "Star Wars: The Old Republic: Lord Scourge", since the book was basically all about him. A truly sad novel to all of the fans that were eagerly waiting for a Revan story.
  23. AaylaSecurOWNED Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2005
    star 6
  24. tjace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2008
    star 4
    Can we please stop the name-calling and mud-throwing? Please? I realize that many people are dissatisfied with some of the characterizations in this book, but could we keep the complaining in this thread somewhat on topic?
  25. AaylaSecurOWNED Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2005
    star 6
    Your name isn't in colors, so why are you modding this thread