Lit The Official The Old Republic: Revan Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6


    This is the worst of the problem. Revan is offered up as a sacrifice to the greatness that is to be TOR's heroes. It's a fairly common sci-fi/comic trope -- and here it's very transparent. Use whatever the "great" thing is, and then own it by something even greater.

    It's just a shame that they've used Revan and the Exile to do it.

    It's not like it began with GAotS. We can simply go back to The Sith War -- the genocide of the Massassi by the combined Replublic/Jedi task force. Then, of course the genocide of the Sith Empire, led by Empress Teta forms the entire backdrop of the motivation of the TOR Sith Empire.

    Pretty much all of the ancient battles between the Jedi and the Sith in the '90s were about the Jedi trying to eradicate the Sith. Most would say not without good reason; but certainly, the extent -- genocide in a few notable cases -- might be considered too extreme. And it's certainly not something the Sith, themselves, have gotten over so easily.
  2. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5


    It's a bit undercut, though, by the fact that, canonically at least, it takes four of the greatest warriors of the era to take down Revan. Hardly what I would consider owning.
  3. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Point conceded. I suppose in the same way, the Sith Emperor actually isn't all that special.

    Had Revan done what everyone was expecting him to do -- bring all the soldiers he groomed and those he tasked the Exile with bringing -- then they would've won.

    Revan nearly had the SIth Emperor single-handedly.

    A good old-fashioned dog pile of Revan, Canderous, HK, T3, Carth, Jolee, Juhani, Mission and Zalbarr, Brianna, Mical, Atton, Bao-Dur, Mira, G0-T0, Hanharr, and Visas Marr would've taken the void-eyed dude out in less time than it took to shut down the Star Forge droid-production facility, or stun all of Darth Malak's health regenerators; certainly less time than it took to take out Nihilus and Kreia, and depending on how much he talked, Sion.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Couldn't we say the same thing about the surviving Jedi and Palpatine after ROTS?
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Perhaps; but I think that the OOU experience -- especially with the way the source canon played out was radically different.

    For years -- years -- the movies stood as the state of reality. Obi-Wan Kenobi for a little while, then Yoda for a time, and that was it. Except for Luke Skywalker and The Other Hope. Over years, real -- out of universe -- time, that began to get chipped away. But, for example, in 1980 and 1983, there were no one else to dog pile on the Emperor with Yoda and Luke.

    It wasn't until WEG first began adding the odd escaped or hiding Jedi that the very concept of survivors became the reality. Then you had the Kyle Katarn experience, and Kam Solusar. And pretty soon, you had whole planetfuls of Jedi-offspring.

    Sure, 35 years later, we now know there's literally hundreds of people who could've banded together -- I mean if you add everyone up who survived, or their apprentices, you pretty much have a pretty large Order -- but that epiphany is really only a fairly recent phenomenon.

    That's not quite the same way that KOTOR/TSL/TOR has played out in terms of who could've fought their Sith Emperor.
  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Yeah, I definitely think that Revan, the Exile, and Scourge could have beaten the Emperor, had they all combined. Might have been close, but they would have won (depending on whether the Emperor has a lightsaber stashed somewhere). If they were to bring their party members? Forget about it.
  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Indirectly, this also highlights a rather interesting comparison...

    (Warning: MAJOR TOR spoilers)

    ...because it only takes one hero to defeat the Emperor (albeit he needs to be killed more than once). So, whereas it takes four of the Sith Empire's greatest champions to bring down Revan, it only takes one Jedi Knight to kill Lord Vitiate (and subsequently only one Jedi Consular to finish off his final vessel).

    Curious, no? [face_thinking]
  8. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    I thought it took Darth Baras, in league with Kreia/The Entity, with the assistance of the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular, myself... so we had to kill him three times, in short succession. Or am I mis-remembering spoilers? I seem to recall Baras trapping Vitiate and him needing to be killed to be freed, and then him hopping to another body and another...
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Wait. . . wait. . .
    Kreia IS the Jedi Entity!?!
  10. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    :) Thanks -- somehow missed her appearance. That actually is a satisfying end; I mean IF we have to have all of these people continuing to appear for hundreds of years later.

    I'm actually glad her end is to suffer in Dark Side hell.

    Beyond the enslavement, and being used by followers, I can only imagine what The Entity thinks of the Sith Emperor and whether they met in life?
  12. Gelious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2011
    The Emperor dissappointed me big time. He is nothing but a walking pile of cliche. Ultimate Evil with black eyes, killed\tortured parents and others, conquered planet, wiped the Force itself, bla-bla-bla... it supposed to impress us? Make us fear? Well, sorry, but, imho, it is just boring and old.
    I hoped there would be some explanation. That this cliche is legend, forged by Emperor to instill fear. At the very least I hoped we will learn just WHY Emperor so powerful.No such thing happened. He is what he is... just because. Because the story need cool Big Bad, but alas, Vader and Sidious won't be around for a couple milleniums, and KOTOR's Sith are no longer with us. And here he comes, coolest Sith ever with no reasons for it at all.
    And then there is that retcon of Canderous suddenly not knowing about Mandalore and Sith. Great.
    And just why exactly Cart Onasi wasn't mention among other Revan's friends? Sure, he is die hard Republic fan, so he can't know about Camderous people actions. But no mention of him at all? Guess he was whining so much, that pissed off Revan. Or the writer. xD
    As for the ending... well, here is the root of all evil. This book is NOT a sequel to games, not at all. It's a prequel to TOR. And we all know what mmorpgs do to heroes of single player games - they turn them into cannon fodder.

  13. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    I honestly thought this was supposed to be the case. Some fact interspersed with embellishment. When you compare the more historical record that the Exile finds to the story that Nyriss tells, they match up but one is the more exaggerated.
  14. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yeah.

    It's like how Kim Jong-il's birth was foretold by a magic swallow and heralded by a double rainbow.

    There was probably only one rainbow.
  15. Aerevyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2007
    star 1
    I know there's a lot of arguments flying around about who this novel does/doesn't pander to but can I offer some perspective here...

    This is a very good novel.

    VERY good.

    It's flaws (flat characterization mostly) are far outweighed by a solid story, a rare occurrence in the SW EU. It's a brave storyteller who will use a '3 years later' tool and and a rare storyteller who will use it well. I loved the interaction between Scourge & Revan.

    I also think that the Emperor is probably the creepiest bad guy SW has yet seen. He's so creepy he creeps Sith Lords out enough that they feel the need to stop him, go figure! The guy didn't just kill everyone on a planet, he killed the force there too, that's badass!

    Revan rocked but not enough to win, Scourge ranks highly as an interesting character now (though I think he only gained that status for me at the very end with his betrayal) and The Exile/Meetra (the name didn't sound right at first but grew on me) died ignobly, as one would expect at the hand of a Sith Lord.

    T3's demise was appropriate but still a shame but droids a) should be expendable and b) can probably be brought back in some interesting kind of way e.g. downloading memory into the ship before they arrived (so memory of scourge/emperor etc. wouldn't be intact, just everything up to and including meetra's arrival on Dromund Kaas).

    I think it's good to see a creepy bad guy who lasts through to the end, you also have a grey character in Scourge and Revan is an unknown quantity by the end. You also have the tasty vision of another Jedi, presumably Revan's child.

    I'm playing ToR (Sith Assassin, EU PvE, server:Rogue Moon, name:Aerevyn) and think it is a shame that the emperor is clearly going to be a big bad boss at some point eventually but I hope this doesn't dissuade DK from writing the canon story sequel as hinted in Revan.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    TOR presumably takes place well after the lifetime of Revan's child. The Jedi in the vision is supposedly a TOR player character.
  17. Aerevyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2007
    star 1
    Apologies, didn't mean Revan's child, more his descendant. I personally hope that there is a canon version of this story that has nothing to do with "20 brave jedi/smugglers/troopers".
  18. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    There is. Each class story canonically deals with only one individual. As does any story event.
  19. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    the question remaining is, is dark side or lightside ending for each class canon, or for some dark side canon for others light side? or all lightside which would suck?
  20. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    I'd like to assume it would be split for the faction. Republic goes Light. Imps generally go dark, with maybe a few decisions (such as a major one during the IA's story) passed over. Conflicting world arcs get split up 50/50. But who knows how it will actually go?
  21. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    I just started reading the paperback, and whatever the rest 300 pages will have, the prologue was great. Not because of Karpyshyn, or a compelling story hook or anything, but because REVAN IS BACK, MOMLOVERS. When he woke up and got up from the bed, I imagined him exactly as he is on Endar Spire when I start playing the game, with his one expression looking at each direction. And when he looked at Coruscant landscape I imagined it as a blurry 2D-painting with one ship landing and getting off from time to time.
  22. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    That was pretty much my reaction reading it, as well. For me, just reading a book about Revan, the first Star Wars character I gave a rats ass about, increased my enjoyment exponentially.
  23. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    Well, I read the rest of the book in two days while being sick, and I liked it. Some thoughts:
    - First Revan chapters were pretty much me giggling at Revan and Bastila and Canderous and Atris has a cameo? Cool.
    - Mandalorian culture in small doses is great ("We just fought the other clan and killed many of them. Nothing personal. Next week we'll all go watch Huttball and they'll bring the popcorn")
    - I was a little irritated by Scourge. Not for any story-related reason, I just felt that he got to do just the class missions and missed the boring side quests
    - The mystery-revealing parts were cool, how Revan found out about the Sith and how the Mandalore was "tricked" into fighting the Republic
    - I got a little teary-eyed about the idea that Revan and the Exile sacrifice themselves so that the galaxy gets three hundred years of peace. That's more than Luke ever got, by the way.
    - I think I gasped louder when T3 died than when the Exile kicked the bucket. Yes, kill me, but don't kill the dog.
    - But what is this that Revan won't be the one to kill the Emperor? I would be very very glad if - in the whatever quest/raid the Emperor gets killed - it wouldn't be done by my character, but instead by Revan casually walking to the scene and shooting him. Then my character asks "Who was that Mysterious Stranger?" but he's already gone.
    _Catherine_ likes this.
  24. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Uggggh this book. So apparently Drew's idea of the aftermath of KOTOR is "and then no one did anything at all." Revan saves the galaxy, disagrees with Jedi doctrine that shouldn't be portrayed as doctrine anyway . . . and then agrees to shut up and spend the rest of his life moping around his apartment watching TV or something. With Bastila, who has joined him in derailment as an inactive homebody with no agenda, no ambition, and no interests. And Canderous has been sitting around on Coruscant refusing to do anything for two years, literally waiting for the book to start. How pathetic. "And then our powerful, active, strong protagonists spent two years literally doing nothing, waiting for the sequel to start."

    Also, how the hell does Drew think Atris is Bastila's age?
    Last edited by Havac, Sep 5, 2013
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    What is the Jedi doctrine with which he disagrees?

    I heard that he uses a Force attack against the Emperor that is the Light and Dark Sides BALANCED!