Lit The Official The Old Republic: Revan Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    I doubt she'd abandon her family even then. I suspect she also knew by this time Revan was gone.
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Are we sure the third game would have used the Odyssey Engine, again? :p
  3. tjace Force Ghost

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    Probably. Bastila and Revan had a Force Bond before KOTOR II was ever thought of.
  4. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    AHAHAHWHAT?

    So because Bastila was not "all that good a woman" and "an annoying harpy" it makes sense that she'd be a passive housewife? Even if you want to complain about Bastila's KOTOR characterization is a non-absurdly-misogynist fashion, her problems there were the typical young-Jedi struggles with impatience and arrogance. She was headstrong, not a shrinking violet. How does that justify a characterization with flaws running in completely the opposite direction? What, once she's a bad woman, you can trash her any way you want?

    Ridiculous.

    Jello edit - just fixing quote attributation due to broken markups
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

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    All indications? You mean outside of the ones that explicitly define her a "Padawan." Poorly delivered? Not says the Jedi Master. I agree with you that if one ignores the explicit statement from her superiors then one can take your position. But, that's hardly the right thing to do. She's a Padawan.

    All Padawans are on the track to Masterhood. It was an atypical time for the Order. It was all-out war. There was much policy that the Council tossed out the the window for Revan and Bastila. There's nothing that I know of that says Padawans can't have other Jedi as subordinates in such terms.

    Please. Pervasive and repulsive misogyny? Give me a break. Bastila being a Padawan is sourced and there's nothing misogynist about being a student in the Jedi order. There's many women Padawans. All of the women Jedi -- Knights or Masters -- probably all started their careers as a Padawan.

    Canderous only knows her for a short time and calls her a "spoiled Jedi Princess." You know what that means? Yes -- high maintenance.

    It was an example of her nagging. That Revan was Light Side meant her concerns were misplaced -- there was nothing Revan could do that would've caused him to lapse into old habits. That he had to save her from the Dark Side shows the hypocrisy and just how sanctimonious she was. Instead of focusing so intently on Revan's perceived faults, she should have been watching herself.

    Nagging. Yes, it was, most definitely nagging. Made all the worse, because she ends up doing everything she nagged him about.

    The only one practicing sexism is Bastila herself: "Bastila: I say leave him. Tanis: You know you're pretty heartless for such a pretty lady. Bastila: On second thought...let's go congratulate his wife." And you think I'm my comments are the sexist ones here?

    I think that's one possibility in a spectrum of no romance, all business at all one one end to a more pure romance at the opposite. But, there's things that suggest more stronglt that's it's more the Anakin/Amidala type than a Han/Leia type. The whole droning on about the rules of the Order and no attachments.

    And the underlying dark abusiveness of the root of their relationship -- which colors it all even up through the novel Revan. The fact that she raped him through the Force -- she was complicit in meting out cruel and unusual punishment on a man. Imprison him. Find. For life. Fine. But she reprogrammed his mind. That's on an entirely different level than Han/Leia. Even as much of a scoundrel -- a drug-smuggling petty criminal -- as Han was, he could never stoop so low as that. Anakin and Amidala? In some ways, what Bastila did to Revan was worse than murder.

  6. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    While Bastila was a Padawan on Taris, that she's never addressed as one after Revan's training on Dantooine, and Revan is himself assigned to her as a padawan, suggests she didn't remain one throughout the game.

    In the dark side endgame, Vandar even makes a distinction between "[Bastila] and the Padawan (Revan)".
  7. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

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    To be clear. Bastila was special because of her battle meditation. But, when everyone -- literally everyone -- saw her in normal Jedi action, they were all underwhelmed to say the least. Carth was the one responsible for ferrying her to the Dantooine council, and he doesn't think she's ready for the trials to come. I think the Dantooine Council's handling of her and Revan, is the most telling; and the reactions of those steeped in Jedi knowledge: Bastila herself, Carth.

    She was their last resort. And only because she was the one who had the link to Darth Revan that everyone needed. That's the only reason the Council even let her go. Otherwise, she wasn't ready.
  8. Commander-DWH Shiny Costuming & Props Manager

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    Okay, I actually have a lot to say, but more importantly, I have a living room to clean so my roommate and I can put up our Christmas tree. So I'm just going to emphasize one thing here.

    Motherhood should always be the choice of the mother. When Bastila discovered she was going to be a mother, she thought she would have her husband there to help raise her child. But he took off immediately after discovering his fatherhood. So rather than being in the loving, supportive relationship she thought she was going to have embarking upon the pregnancy and raising her child, she was left alone. And pregnancy is no picnic. Childbirth is a difficult process and Revan left her alone. He didn't even find someone he trusted to look after her while he was gone, because that's what a caring husband might have thought to do for his wife. No, Bastila was unceremoniously forced into single motherhood, and any thoughts she might have had of doing anything with her life again were dashed, because she was ALL ALONE to raise her child. And that was ABSOLUTELY NOT the way she planned it.

    Those who choose motherhood can be strong and powerful and still do awesome things. Leia ran the kriffing galaxy with small children in tow. Classifying Bastila as a passive mother is not sexist, it is accurate. Not all mothers are passive. Bastila most decidedly is. And it was a vast disservice to her character to depict her in that manner.

    In short, I cannot emphasize how wrong the idea is that by objecting to one form of motherhood implies disrespect for motherhood as a whole. Motherhood is wonderful and beautiful, and this book essentially made a mockery of it by using it solely as a means for keeping Bastila from following Revan. It deserves so much more consideration than it was given.
  9. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    Given how often people misspeak and how often there are dialogue mistakes in this game, yes, I'm willing to take extrinsic evidence. That's how sound reasoning works.

    You're being intentionally obtuse. She was saying how she suspected this particular mission was her test for Masterhood: unless your thesis is that it is possible to skip from Padawan to Master, I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

    Bastila also talks about her experiences when she was a padawan in the past tense; i.e., she is no longer a padawan.

    I'm also not sure how many padawans led strike teams capable of physically apprehending Dark Lords of the Sith--whatever her talent with battle meditation, that doesn't extend to direct confrontation in battle: unless you are also suggesting it is the typical practice of the Jedi to be stunningly incompetent.

    Her only value as a character in the story vis-a-vis Revan seems to be sexual, at least as far as you've stated.

    Yes, I'm sure he was describing how Bastila was materially and emotionally needy when Bastila was pointing out that Canderous was a broken down mercenary. Canderous could dish it but he couldn't take it: he baited Bastila about Jedi competence, she stepped up to bat, and his response was a "no u!!" From that you decide that somehow she is weak and needy as a person, because she wouldn't have sex with Revan quickly enough.

    Misogyny. Given the regressive attitudes of this particular subculture, I'm not terribly surprised but it's still very disappointing nontheless.

    Right--because Revan was never the golden paragon of the Jedi that had fallen to darkness before . . .

    Oh. Wait. Hang on . . . my memory's jogging--he was! How about that? As far as hypocrisy goes, I know you've been here long enough to know what argumentum ad hominem tu quoque means. If not, I'll ask Valiento or The Tears of Palpatine to explain it to you, once I figure out how to summon them from the e-netherworld.

    There might be some sort of ritual involved... might need a sacrifice, too.

    It's sexist to lack sympathy for a person who cheats on their spouse? You can do better than that, especially when the very line you quote is misogynistic in character. But for all I know, Tanis is a personal hero of yours. :p

    As for
  10. AlyxDinas Jedi Grand Master

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    That said, I think Geng does make a point insofar that damning Bastila because she chooses to raise her child while retaining some measure of devotion to Revan is also a bit of a stretch. I think it does cut both ways, to some extent. Ideally, there's some middle ground between complete exoneration and condemnation. We definitely shouldn't treat the depiction in the book as without flaws but to completely spit on her for her choice also seems a tad off too.

    Bastila's depiction in the book is...well, let's face it, it's got a lot of problems. The book's got plenty of problems beyond that but the lack of any real depth given to her is a complete disservice to be sure. Not just to the character but to the gravity of the situation she finds herself in. I definitely think, as you say, it would have benefited from more consideration. But I think that's something that can be said for pretty much everything in the book, unfortunately. It sets a new standard on unfulfilled potential, really.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    It makes more sense in the context of KOTOR2 with the whole, "Darth Nihilus hunted us down."
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

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    I don't know that anyone, Bastila included, would have expected Revan to do that. They both knew they all had big targets on their back, and Revan most of all. It's not like the cold-blooded murder of Ulic Qel-Droma -- a long time after the end of the war -- was done in secret. Bastila had to know Revan's fate was not growing old sitting in his easy chair, playing horsey with Vaner. She may have dreamed it or hoped it. But she knew better.

  13. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    No, he didn't. It's a "quiet thing, to fall"... and Revan knew exactly what he was doing when he turned to the dark side.

    We're talking about a guy who'd been dabbling in Sith teachings, using wounds in the Force as a conversion tool and quite purposefully killing off anyone who wasn't 100% loyal to him before he'd ever met the Sith Emperor.

    That was the "Hero" of the Mandalorian Wars.

    Darth Revan was enthralled against his will? Sure. For all of five minutes before he decided he wanted his own damn Empire.
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

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    He still remained enthralled even then. It was but for the strength of Revan's sheer will which allowed Darth Revan the small matter of independence to make that decision; the Emperor's power was too great to have been overcome completely until his mind was wiped.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    Revan never fell. And. He was enthralled by the Sith Emperor. The Darth Revan we've heard so much about was the result of someone under the influence of the Dark Side against their will.


    Oh, so that's why he started carving out his own personal realm purely against the wishes of the soi-disant Sith emperor? He was well on his way to the dark side even before he met the fellow, at any rate: the war saw to that.

    The dark side promised an answer to the war, and he took it. What's to say this shining Jedi wouldn't take it again? Whether or not he did or did not fall is irrelevant: from the perspective of the wider galaxy and the Jedi, he FELL and it is perfectly rational to try to make sure that didn't happen again. All this nonsense about the "sith emperor" is an utter red herring: and I must say, a masterful stroke from someone expert at being evasive when it suits one's purposes.

    Sure, you've practicing it here crudely. "?I know, Tanis is a personal hero of yours." I was talking about fictional characters before you wanted to start talking about how I was talking about them. The hypocrisy was in regards to Bastila's nagging, which clearly it was.


    I'm really not convinced you know what a tu quoque means. You're accusing Bastila of hypocrisy regarding the dark side because she fell to the dark side herself: that may be so, but the essence of an ad hominem tu quoque is that somebody is wrong because they're hypocritical. I thought you knew that; I suppose I was mistaken. Ghosts of another millennium, I guess.

    Moreover: she was "nagging" him before she ever fell herself--indeed, he fell to the dark side before she did. But the difference was that Revan's a man, and I guess that means any feminine criticism is nagging.

    To the point, Bastila was suggesting that someone -- yes, who cheated on their wife -- deserved being left in the Tatooine desert in a sudden-death trap. Move and die quickly. Don't move and die a slow, painful death through heat stroke or dehydration. Cruel and unusual punishment. But, this was a person who rewired someone's mind using the Force. That Bastila sure was a great Jedi. But, I guess this is what we get out of the EU when Mara Jade is one of the most popular characters. "Hey, let's just kill the ones we disagree with." If only the Sith could do as much damage.


    Yet again you make things up during the course of your misogynistic screed: Bastila kept Revan alive. It was Master Vhar who rewired him. But let's blame Bastila instead, because she kept her pants on.
  16. AlyxDinas Jedi Grand Master

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    That's a pretty good point.

    Well, sort of. I think that regardless of whether or not Kreia's waxing about Revan "sacrificing" himself had any degree of truth to it or not, it's pretty clear that after that occurred, Revan was out of his depth. If anything's clear though, Revan certainly considers it a failing.
  17. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I agree.

    Revan leaving would have greatly distressed her, it could do nothing but; however, it also wouldn't have been entirely unexpected. Bastila was sadly just forced into the same position as thousands of soldiers' wives, whose husbands "abandon" them when they're called back to the battlefield. That's not sexist; it's the real world, and I expect may be one of the reasons the Jedi warn against the dangers of attachment, as a Jedi's life is not a quiet and easy one: she and Revan both knew the risks associated, like every forces' family does. Far from that making her a passive figure, Bastila had to be strong and brave and put her child's needs before her own.
  18. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    You don't seem to be getting my point. The complaint issued was that Bastila was reduced to a neutered figure who got knocked up and stuffed in the house and passively moped around while Revan upped and left her. That has nothing to do with whether or not motherhood is good -- it has to do with whether Bastila has any strength or agency as a character.

    My point was that your supposed refutation of that complaint -- "Lol, she was a nagging ***** who wouldn't put out anyway, so of course she's weak" (THIS IS THE SOURCE OF THE COMPLAINTS OF GLARING MISOGYNY) -- has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMPLAINT. The fact that she was extremely strong-willed in KOTOR does not explain why she would be weak-willed here. If she didn't have any agency here, I fail to see how it's explained by your justification that in KOTOR, Revan couldn't get her to just give in and open her legs, because that's an example of her having too much agency for your tastes.

    Revan couldn't get Bastila to just do what he wanted in KOTOR. Why are you purporting this as an explanation of why she just goes along with whatever Revan says here? Other than, "She's a nag and a bad woman, so she just sucks in general."
  19. DarthRevan211 Jedi Master

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    I think people are throwing the "misogynistic" title around too readily here. You might think that, but to bring it up as an argument many, many posts after the fact is a very nasty form of baiting.

    I personally think Bastila felt odd in the novel, but her whole characterization was very odd and inconsistent in KOTOR. The vastly different outlooks on it displayed in this thread are evidence of that. Up until this point I never questioned that Bastila was a Padawan all throughout KOTOR. That's what I got out of my 5 or so playthroughs, but now it appears like I was taking it too literally perhaps. Then again, I never once heard her called a Knight.

    Interesting discussion overall though.
  20. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    That is so breath-takingly patronizing that it leaves an ill taste in my mouth.

    He's the thing. Drew K. has taken a previous vital character and reduced her to mere background, serving the needs of the male character and getting out of the way of his greater glory: and you've essentially given her a pat on the head saying "there there, you're helping too." Regardless of how much domestic support soldiers require, and how important it is to them: we're talking about the import of a creative decision to marginalize a female character in a book that seems to take a perverse pleasure in doing just that to other, vital female characters.

    This is made worse, of course, when someone adopts a double standard: it's horrid when the Exile is marginalized because Genghis gets to play as her and make her kewl, but it's perfectly decent when it happens to Bastila because she wouldn't put out for him.
  21. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    It's patronising to praise the work of service wives?o_O

    I don't agree that the Exile was marginalised, so that comment doesn't apply to me. I've been quite clear previously that I consider her role in the story well done, and praise her for having saved Revan's life, so you're mistaken about me attacking the Exile's treatment, whilst being content with Bastila's, as I've been fine with both.

    Now, if you're going to have a go at Genghis for his other comments, I'm not going to stop you, but I'd rather you not quote something I said completely out of context when you're continuing an attack on what somebody else said in a different post. [face_shame_on_you]
  22. AlyxDinas Jedi Grand Master

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    I think it does bear mentioning that once Bastila has the chance to (since Charles rightly pointed out how the Dark Wars would prevent her from doing much), she's pretty adamant about taking action and heading out to search for Revan. The Exile's the one who points out the impracticality. I mean, that doesn't excuse much of the characterization but it isn't as if Bastila's all too content to just sit back and wait on Revan completely.
  23. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Indeed. I find it quite bittersweet, really, since in her own way Bastila was as much a victim as Revan and the Exile themselves. Only, whereas their fates were straightforward and had a clear sense of finality, hers was to stay behind and care for Vaner, never to know what became of her husband. After all, while the Exile died, Revan didn't, so it's uncertain exactly "what" Bastila would have felt when Revan was imprisoned? The deathly emptiness Vitiate spoke of to Scourge? Or an ambiguous feeling that Revan was still "alive"?

    From that perspective, I'd say Bastila was arguably the biggest victim of all three, as she had to live with the uncertainty. There's an entirely different story in that, which I'd be much more interested in reading than simply seeing Bastila follow Revan to his death once Vaner's grown up.
  24. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

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    That's exactly why -- Karpyshyn makes that clear for you. Or is that something else for you to ignore, so you can hold to some position divined through your own greater wisdom in contradiction to the facts.

    He always would. In a heartbeat, if it meant stopping the true Sith. Jedi. Sith. Light Side. Dark Side. It mattered not to Revan. They were all tools to be used to same the Republic.

    Red herring. You mean to remotely suggest that the utter domination of one's will, to be become an enthralled extension of the Emperor's will is irrelevant? And you accuse me of cherry picking?

    Sure, you've practicing it here crudely. "?I know, Tanis is a personal hero of yours." I was talking about fictional characters before you wanted to start talking about how I was talking about them. The hypocrisy was in regards to Bastila's nagging, which clearly it was.


    I do -- you're emphasis on also you, naming me by name does a bit more than suggest you're taking the conversation of fictional people to a conversation of the posters. There's been no hypocrisy on my part. So, then what point are you trying to make.

    And that's where your argument breaks. No one's suggested that any feminism criticism is nagging. I certainly haven't. My point you seem to have issue with point was that Bastila is a nag. I can perhaps see the crossed wires. You're making up arguments to project on people.
    That was the point of Bastila. She wasn't even supposed to even "be" Bastila. She was supposed to be Vima Sunrider. Would her personality have been any different? Maybe more along the bastion of idealized perfection that you so desperately want Bastila to be? Who knows. That destiny never panned out. But there's no shame in Bastila's game essence as being a girl-toy for Revan. That's not misogyny -- she has her own mirror counterpart, Carth. And they did their jobs so well, that the next people to come along said, hey, if one's good -- let's add multiple chicks and dudes for our Revan to play with.

    And what you don't apparently understand is that's still a very much common reality. Getting knocked up? They were married and obviously planning on a family. So I never was rationalizing your skewed characterization of motherhood and wifedom that Bastila was somehow neutered because she wants to raise a son as traditionally as she could under her circums
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    If they hadn't described the Jedi Council I'd also have said Bastilla had a responsibility to teach the new Jedi Order.