Lit The Official The Old Republic: Revan Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    That, and acting as the Republic's super-weapon against the true Sith when it finally does invade. Republic, Jedi or Sith -- they all wanted Bastila. Not because she's a great Jedi, she wasn't. Because of her Battle Meditation.

    For everyone's low esteem of the motherhood role that Bastila has chosen, you're ignoring that from her own living room in her own house, she could save the Republic; coordinating the entire defense of Coruscant, or more.
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Unless KotOR 2 has been completely Mace Windowed, Revan was dark long before he'd met the Emperor. He's no more justified in his mad "I'll use the dark side to protect the galaxy" (characteristic of him during both the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars) claptrap than Anakin is in his "I'll use the dark side to protect Padme" balls.

    Trying to take charge of the galaxy to direct it against the Sith Emperor is exactly what "Revan the Butcher" would do. TSL goes as far to suggest he's plotting -- during the Mandalorian Wars!!! -- to eventually turn his forces against the Republic:

    "It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly? The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one." - Kreia

    "Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army." - HK-47

    What was the Revan who'd never met the Sith Emperor going to use this army of converts for, do you think?

    Though, now I think about it, it could be that BioWare intend to explain all his behaviour with the "call" of the Emperor that Revan mentions in TOR. If they really do want to run with the "enthrallment" idea, revealing that he'd been ensorcelled as far back as the Revanchist days (somehow) wouldn't be wholly uninteresting.

    "Some said Revan was born in the outer regions, beyond the rim, and that's what called to him in the Mandalorian Wars... and after. It was the call of home." - Kreia

    TOR's given us no reason to suspect that Revan's origins lie there, though, so I'm doubtful. (And, considering the size of such a revelation, you'd have expected it to come up in Revan. It didn't, so it looks even less likely.)

    That being said, Revan as a kneeling Kal-El to Vitiate's triumphant Zod would be awesome. :p
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    That's exactly why -- Karpyshyn makes that clear for you. Or is that something else for you to ignore, so you can hold to some position divined through your own greater wisdom in contradiction to the facts.


    See Ulicus's post for exactly what I meant by that.

    Although I thank you for the acknowledgement of my greater wisdom, but I must demur that it stands in contradiction to the facts.

    He always would. In a heartbeat, if it meant stopping the true Sith. Jedi. Sith. Light Side. Dark Side. It mattered not to Revan. They were all tools to be used to same the Republic.



    . . . then? The Jedi Council did not approve of those tactics, which is exactly why the tabula rasa Revan must be warned against walking down that all too familiar path.

    Red herring. You mean to remotely suggest that the utter domination of one's will, to be become an enthralled extension of the Emperor's will is irrelevant? And you accuse me of cherry picking?


    Yes, it's irrelevant. The issue, as you stated it, is Bastila's 'nagging' of a canonically light side Revan. Since Revan had taken the quick and easy path before, and since nobody had any way of knowing that Revan had been "enthralled," it stands to reason that a prudent Jedi would warn him against falling again. Since the Jedi Council didn't and couldn't have known about the "sith emperor," it should not and cannot factor into a discussion about how sound their reasoning was.

    I do -- you're emphasis on also you, naming me by name does a bit more than suggest you're taking the conversation of fictional people to a conversation of the posters. There's been no hypocrisy on my part. So, then what point are you trying to make.


    I haven't accused you of hypocrisy. I've said that you committed a tu quoque by saying that Bastila was wrong to warn Revan about the dangers of the dark side because she, too, fell to the dark side. The essence of the tu quoque is that you cannot say Bastila was wrong simply because she didn't practice what she preached.

    And that's where your argument breaks. No one's suggested that any feminism criticism is nagging. I certainly haven't. My point you seem to have issue with point was that Bastila is a nag. I can perhaps see the crossed wires. You're making up arguments to project on people.


    It's less projection and more inference. Your choice of words and your frame of criticism reek of misogyny. Havac did a good job in stripping out the rhetoric and getting straight to the point, so I'll let his point stand there for what I was trying to say.

    That was the point of Bastila. She wasn't even supposed to even "be" Bastila. She was supposed to be Vima Sunrider. Would her personality have been any different? Maybe more along the bastion of idealized perfection that you so desperately want Bastila to be? Who knows. That destiny never panned out. But there's no shame in Bastila's game essence as being a girl-toy for Revan. That's not misogyny -- she has her own mirror counterpart, Carth. And they did their jobs so well, that the next people to come along said, hey, if one's good -- let's add multiple chicks and dudes for our Revan to play with.


    Yes, but it's one thing to say "hey Jello, she ain't perfect" and it's another to say "she's a nag that won't put out, so this is what she gets."

    And you call me misogynist. Patronising or not, Bastila was performing an extremely valuable role. And it's only patronising, because you value Bastila's work as a mother so little. In the same way that Revan may have been the only one in all of existence to redirect the Emperor's blasts against him. Well, Revan certainly couldn't give birth to their baby boy.

    [. . . ]

    What, exactly did you want Bastila to do? Go transplant the embryo in a test tube or surrogate while she was off trying to save the galaxy herself? Bring it with the the Unknown Regions to face the Sith E
  4. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    And yet we're still getting no elaboration on what that role could have been, in your estimation. Don't get me wrong here, I actually agree with the sentiment being expressed. At least insofar as giving Bastila some more degree of focus would have been nice because it might have given the character the type of consideration she was due (instead of reducing her to something fairly flat) but given the content of the book itself, what exactly should she be doing? Leaving her child behind to go with the Exile?
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Well, how should I know what that role should be? I'm not the one getting paid to write. I'm just saying what we were presented wasn't good enough, but that doesn't necessarily mean I can come up with something satisfactory. One can complain without offering something better.
  6. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    See: The Labour Party.
  7. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
  8. Commander-DWH Shiny Costuming & Props Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2003
    star 4
    I am so glad you asked. :p

    I mean, not that this has any real bearing on the discussion because we're not in charge of canon, and Jello is right in that you don't have to necessarily offer a solution in order to accurately point out that something is a problem. And, given that the book has been published, we are treading directly into the lands of fan fiction.

    Seeing as those are my lands, however, I will offer a few ideas.

    How things might have gone down if I were writing Bastila's role:

    1. Revan would have made a few comm calls before he left to people like Carth, Juhani, and Jolee. He would have told him that he had to leave and didn't have a choice, but he didn't want Bastila to feel like she was alone at this time in her life. This kid would have so many awesome aunts and uncles.

    2. Bastila would take the appropriate amount of maternity leave necessary- enough for her body to recover, and enough that she could feel like she might be able to allow others to care for the baby during the day. But she would never lose her focus on the greater good, because now that she has a kid, she's probably going to want to keep the galaxy safe for his sake. And she can do more than your average soccer mom. Nothing against soccer moms, but most of them can't just run out and battle Sith Lords. It's a pretty specific skill set, and Bastila has it.

    3. After she felt like she could leave the child alone with someone else, or if she could find a place with day care, she would work doing anything she could to keep the Republic strong. Revan, the great tactician, might have given her some hints about this before he left. Maybe, "Hey Bastila, you did a pretty decent job helping train me. Why don't you go train Jedi? I know you don't love them, but you have experience to offer them that no other Jedi has, and that's the kind of experience they're going to need in the coming days."

    4. It would be hard and she'd miss Revan a lot, and she'd often wish she had someone guaranteed there every night to help with raising the child, but she'd be doing so much rewarding work that it would somehow make all the craziness worth it.

    5. She would have picked a better, non-anagram name. Seriously.

    That's a very broad and nonspecific outline of something she could have done. And I may actually cover this time period at some point in my own timeline, but I've got other things to finish first. But, as I said, that's purely fan fiction. There are probably a lot more ways it could have been done, and after the book's been out a bit longer I'll probably open up that discussion over in the fanfic forums. But those are my first, unpolished ideas.
  9. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    Not as glad as I am to have a well thought out answer to the question, I assure you. [face_dancing]

    EDIT: Although, upon closer observation, it occurs to me that some of what you posted isn't outside of the possibility within the established canon in the novel as it stands. For instance, I'm not sure if it's right to assume that just because Karpyshan didn't spend a chapter detailing Juhani's Life Day visit to Bastila and her son, that it suddenly means that Bastila was left completely without a support circle. It is pretty clear that Revan exhibited a pretty damning lack of forethought and consideration for her situation and that Karpyshan really botched the writing on that front but I think it's safe that Vaner is raised well. Which I would hope implies something about how competently Bastila managed.
  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    I have to wonder if the Revan-Bastila bond could not have been employed as means to give Bastila a modicum of insight into the Emperor, too. At least enough to know: "Holy crap, Revan was right, there is something really bad out there, it's got Revan, it's coming to get us, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure we're ready to face it."

    Unless that's actually addressed. Still have yet to read this.

    Heh. Now I find myself wishing Bastila ended up as the ghost watching over Revan. Surik could have, I don't know, become some immortal badass Jedi fighting a guerilla war throughout the Sith Empire for a few centuries.

    And then lived into the Prequel Era and become the Dark Woman. [face_whistling]
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Jello can call me misogynist even further (but it would be just as misguided as the other times the card's been played, as I'd do the same whether the Exile was male or female) but the Exile should have stayed with Bastila. All three have a connection to Revan; so you form a Force meld between the three of them. Use Revan to project echoes of Bastila's Battle Meditation through the Exile, so that it reaches everything. With Revan ensuring those echoes are projected further and deeper into the Sith Empire on his journey, as he moves to confront the Emperor. And what would Bastila project? Make it all KOTORish. I have her project serenity. Peace. To the Sith.

    Juhani, Mical, and Jolee Bindo are the advance brigade with Revan. Their task is simple; they do not need to infiltrate the Empire much, if at all. They stay on the fringe and pull a Rambo II. They just get pictures. All that would really suffice is a living, breathing Red Sith. That's it, then they return. If possible, they record Sith settlements and military facilities, but those aren't needed. Just a single picture of a bona fide Sith. Doesn't need to be a Lord. Or anything special at all. Could be a slave, whatever. They get it and get out immediately. Return to the Republic and alert the Republic and the COuncil to get a fleet together -- all of the ships save ones for defense.

    Then, have Mandalore reprise the Mandalorians role from the Ravager -- team him with Bao Dur to plan planet-killers on all of the Sith primary worlds, including Dromund Kaas. If it were me, I'd settle on something that would crack the planet in half, right through to the Emperor's throne. But, since Kyle or Mara would likely have noticed that feature, I'll settle for anything that turns the world into a cinder filled with corpses -- I guess some of them the walking dead variety because they're restless in their afterlife to plague Kyle and Mara thousands of years later. I wouldn't use them until everything's ready.

    You have Revan work to reverse his Jedi Civil War acts; instead of breaking the Jedi -- he workds to heal the Sith, bolstered by Bastila's calming Battle Meditation. He works to turn those, like he did with Scourge. And Scourge is living proof that even if Revan doens't find friends, he'll find willing enemies of his enemy. Revan then uses the Sith to destroy the Sith. Mira and Brianna coordinate this Rebellion against the Empire. We know from the novel, that rebellions are a dime a dozen in the Empire; so this wouldn't raise any suspicions. They'd just be doing what the Sith are already doing.

    And for those too strong-willed to side with Revan's faction, you send out Atton, Visas Marr and HK-47 to assassinate them. Atton and Visas can hit them in the corners of their fortresses; HK can do damage on a bit wider scale.

    By the time Revan's insurrection is ready; the Republic forces should be gathered -- you get them to Nathema, so the Sith can't detect them; they'll be blocked from detection.

    Then, depending on how Revan's work is going you assess the D-Day Alpha Stike. If its going poorly, then you simply crack Dromund Kaas with the Emperor on it. Revan rushes to the throne room to confront whatever's survived. At the same time, Bastila immediately changes from broadcasting peace and serenity to bolstering the very real Sith's own fear of the Republic. SHe wouldn't be inserting anything against their nature; again, we know that fear of the Republic is very real -- she would be bolstering their own feelings, so it should be a stronger effect. Then jump the fleet in and transmit terms of surrender. The bulk will already be afraid. Any time the Emperor looks like he's ready to unleash a bad juju ceremony to suck the life out of Dromund Kaas, then you kill it before he does.

    Those who surrender are spared their own version of Dromund Kaas. Those who don't you break their planets too. And the Republic/Jedi mp up the remainder.

    If the insurrection went well, and the Sith are able to neutralize the Emperor on their own
  12. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    "Common reality" has nothing to do with story choice. "Oh, lots of people get married and raise kids, so when a headstrong, action-oriented major character turns into a yes-dear housewife it must be in character!" How many mothers stay home or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's a good idea for Bastila, a headstrong Jedi warrior, to be pushed into single motherhood without any agency in the matter, purely by her husband's choice, which she goes along with despite not liking. You keep talking about "she wants." The problem is that she doesn't want, but she's pushed into going along with it anyway by Revan. That's the whole agency and strength of character thing.

    You obviously have no idea what my conception of motherhood is, but the fact that she becomes a mother is a separate issue from the complaint (which I am not making, having not read the book -- I'm just articulating because you seem to be having massive trouble grasping it) that, after being the second-most-important character in KOTOR, she's reduced to a background character without any agency of her own, getting told what to do by Revan and being rather brusquely abandoned while giving off a barefoot-and-pregnant vibe. This is an issue of characterization and treatment of the character. It would be the same complaint if Jolee were turned into an orthodox Jedi Council yes-man.

    Okay, so she wasn't strong-willed, because she was strong-willed, but you didn't like it when she was. Well, that's pretty much in line with your logic so far, so I shouldn't be surprised. And then despite resisting romantic entanglement for a long time she finally overcame her reservations and entered a relationship with Revan. I guess you think that means that she must not have had any strength of will at all? Because if Revan can talk her into giving it up, he can talk her into anything, am I right? Yeah, she knows who's boss! This may be news to you, but overcoming someone's reservations in one conversation does not somehow establish that you're the winner and she's the loser and she's going to be doing what you say from now on.

  13. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Don't blame me; one of the primary reasons for Bastila and Carths's very existence is to get it on with Revan. That has been the hawt gameplay grail in RPG's for a while.

    Hell, that was one of the very first questions when news of TOR broke -- "what will the romances be like." KOTOR was a refinement of the Black Isle experience that the same groups experimented with in Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape: Torment. Call CRPG players freaky, but that gameplay experience was something that became the norm. I don't blame Bastila for taking on this role -- being Revan's girl-toy was forced upon her by powers beyond her control. It's not misogyny at all; Carth has the same problem. Except he's not in the novel, so we're not talking about him. Bastila is.

    You want to talk strong-willed. It is Carth. He's the only one -- the only one who has it in him to stand up to the worst that Revan can do. But, you know what, Bastila doesn;t have it in her, at all; under no possibilities. She'll go along with Revan no matter what Revan does.

    Carth at least has the strength of will to turn his back; even if it means living out his days on a lost, nameless world alone. That was the better option.

    So, no, Bastils is not strong-willed. She is pig-headed and egotistical. There's a difference.

    As I figured, so we can chalk everything you had to say as just whining for the sake of whining. :p [:D]
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Yeah, and that's clearly the same way you see Bastila. Funny thing is, that also reflects the role that women have had in works of literature for the past few centuries--reflecting the societal expectation that as a whole, a woman's role was to procreate and be a homemaker. And guess what? That's what Bastila's been reduced to as well! And you still don't understand why people have a problem with that?
  15. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    RUN, MISSION! GO, GO!!!

    [face_laugh]

    Oh, Carth.
  16. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    I certainly would be careful before implying that Bastila's decision to raise her child is somehow of less worth than, say, having her teach new Jedi. We do seem to be glossing over the fact that her decision do to so actually does end up having a largely beneficial effect on the Republic.

    In general, I'd say it's probably better to focus on the much more important question of whether or not her actions are consistent with previous characterization than to (intentionally or not) suggesting that one course of action is better than the other.
  17. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    But therein lies the real problem. Because Bastila's characterization is 100% dependent upon what Revan does. Jello, and Havoc, and Commander all have a problem with traditional motherhood.

    But, no one has any problem with Bastila merely being a cipher for whatever you want her to do -- running the entire spectrum from being an evil mass-murder along with him, to helping him save the day. She, at least, doesn't have it as bad as the TSL tortured souls. I mean, I can only imagine the discussions when it registers that the Exile can actually have his (wo)man perform whatever actions (s)he wants, even to the point of helping murder innocents, and a number of other things against their nature. If that's not the worst abusive relationship to end all abusive relationships, I don't know what is. But, the light side version isn't any better if you want to talk about strong/free will -- the Exile's companions exist to not have any at all.; the Exile actually changes their nature, whether they like it or not. That's at the heart of their previous characterizations.

    And, Jello, time to put those vaunted critical thinking skills of that you like to talk about so much to work. Regarding Padawan Bastila. KOTOR is based on Wizard's D20. And even if you had no idea about that, it doesn't much matter. When we first see her, she's Level 3. That makes her a Padawan. She doesn't become a Jedi Knight until Level 7. Ignoring those core mechanics for a moment. How do you view someone who's 3/20ths of a master of their profession. And to be clear, game-wise relatively very little experience, at all. Most call them a neophyte. Novice. Greenhorn. Star Wars RPG, computer or othwise calls them "Padawan." Which, is also, imagine that, supported by the narrative. I guess, that;s simply something else to ignore. I mean assess using one's critical thinking skills to conclude the exact opposite. [face_laugh]
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    That is the stupidest post I've ever read in my eleven years on the JC. Not even joking.
  19. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    Emphasis mine. Gameplay mechanics aren't canon. All your companions start out at low levels.

    Unless you're also suggesting that Carth and Canderous are also unskilled neophytes because they start out at level 3 and level 5, respectively.
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Jello. Just say it with me: "Bastila is a padawan." You'll feel relieved at releasing all of that pent up denial you've been holding in that's been making you miserable.

    Rogue: Jello's already said he ignores canon when it doesn't suit him, so we don't even need to talk canon. Beginning her journey with Revan as a newbie -- as the Council describes her -- is existential to Bastila's previous characterization.

    Canderous is by no means a neophyte; but if you're looking for narrative justification. Sure; the experience at Malachor that broke his people broke him too. He's turned his back on whatever glory days he may have known.

    And, no, not all of your companions begin at low levels. Juhani and Bindo are almost Jedi Knights. Which lo and behold supports their narrative as well. Go figure that the two line up. Coincidence you say. Right.
  21. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
  22. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    RE:Bastila. (Thanks for ruining the context, Hydro! :mad::p ) Even assuming she is a padawan... big deal?

    Or should we assume that AotC Anakin and TCW Ahsoka aren't the badasses they are by virtue of their rank?

    The KotOR CG, incidentally, has this to say:

    BASTILA SHAN
    Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi examplar. The dark side, however, erodes even the purest lights. Born on Talravin, at an early age, Bastila exhibits an independent streak and a startling Force acuity that inevitably leads to Jedi life.

    PG 137.

    Which, FWIW, has her listed as a CL 17 Jedi 10/Jedi Knight 7. I wouldn't say such means she's attained the rank of Jedi Knight, of course (though, again, she is not called a Padawan *once* following Revan's training), but she's nevertheless being presented as a BAM -- contrary to your words.
  23. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    The Sith Lords smacked her down, stripping her of all her power.

    Ulicus, that description is the one as given in her background; it's when "Bastila returns to he light, going on to use her invaluable battle meditation to help defeat the Sith Empire." I.e., the END of the first KOTOR. WHich would be exactly right.

    When the Council appoints her to journey with Revan, she is a learner. When that journey is complete, she is an experienced Jedi, in many ways a "master."
  24. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    But she's less than Level 7, so she must be a Padawan, right? She doesn't become a Jedi Knight until, I guess, Telos.
  25. Commander-DWH Shiny Costuming & Props Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2003
    star 4
    Wrong, wrong, WRONGITY MCWRONGERPANTS.

    I'm not sure there are actually words for how offensive that sentence is. You presume to know how I and others view motherhood, even when we've stated repeatedly that the problem is not with motherhood in general, but with how it is handled in this specific instance. I don't know if the problem is that you can't read, or if you choose to forget everything that doesn't support what you're already thinking, but it's not endearing and isn't a part of a productive conversation.