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Lit The Official The Old Republic: Revan Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Genghis, now you've descended into strawman. I've said that Vandar's line doesn't fit everything else that characterizes her as a knight, and so the line must be contextualized and explained. You--firstly by taking a tu quoque ("jello doesn't use canon, why should I?") and secondly by using a ridiculously subjective mechanic--are ignoring anything that doesn't fit your thesis. Bastila's level depends on whatever experience points you've gathered thus far: she automatically levels up, but starts at a low enough level for you to have some control over what skills she learns. But sure, let's cling to a rather tenuous shred of evidence like that and ignore the rest.

    Just stop it, Genghis. Now I understand why you drove ToP mad.
     
  2. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    But it's okay to expand an opinion of one particular, very specific instance of a nagging harpy into misogyny? You don't think that's just as offensive? It works both ways.
     
  3. Point Given

    Point Given Mod of Literature and Community star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Game mechanics are canon now? I guess Taris has a population of one hundred.
     
  4. Commander-DWH

    Commander-DWH Manager Emeritus star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2003
    No, I think there are far, far more examples of misogyny in your posts. When it's a pattern, it's fair to comment on it, and I'm not surprised it has been.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm going to quote Havac now: Yeah, what a "high-maintenance" "crazy beyotch" who wasn't "all that good a woman" because it took "12 or 13 tries" "to pry the legs apart" after a bunch of "nagging," and who only wasn't an "annoying harpy" in "a few brief private moments with Revan" (read: when she had the "legs apart"), and who is being judged on the fact that Revan will have less "happiness" with her because "the family life that Bastila will provide with Revan" will be compromised by the fact that "her mom was sickening" and "she was clearly the product of a broken home." The only time she merits any praise is when she has "the legs apart" or when she's fulfilling "the motherhood role."


    The parts inside quotation marks come from you. That's misogyny, mister.
     
  6. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    The bio refers to her as being an "exemplar" and one of the Jedi's "purest lights" prior to her dark spell.

    Fact is, while the biggest thing Bastila had going for her was her battle meditation, it wasn't -- by any stretch of the imagination -- the only thing going for her.
     
  7. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jello, you just want to ignore the published material that doesn't fit. I understand. That's fine.

    Facilitating Bastila's KOTOR behavior is the real misogyny. It's okay to call a nag a nag. That's not misogyny. It's okay to call someone who really is high-maintenance, high-maintenance. That's not misogyny. It's okay to call someone out who owes her primary existence as a romantic play-thing. That's not misogyny. As I said, many of these also fit Carth Onasi. So, clearly it's not misogyny.

    What is misogyny is to suggest the form of motherhood chosen by Bastila is somehow demeaning. That's repulsive. IT'S what is the stupidest post made to the forums in thirteen years.
     
  8. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Using the word "harpy" is pretty misogynistic by itself.
     
  9. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    We're talking about a woman who trips teenaged girls out of spite. The metaphor fits.
     
  10. Point Given

    Point Given Mod of Literature and Community star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    No it doesn't. Unless you're suggesting half-eagle/half-woman hybrids enjoy tripping people.
     
  11. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2010
    I don't know about you but if I had talons, I'd totally be trippin'.
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm not sure you understand what the word harpy means. Moreover, you essentially just endorsed the use of a gendered term of abuse: that's misogyny, whether it fits or not. Do you also go around using the N word to describe the president, saying that it fits?
     
  13. Commander-DWH

    Commander-DWH Manager Emeritus star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Why am I still repeating this?

    Bastila did not choose single motherhood. Revan walked out on her the moment she announced her pregnancy. She had no agency in the decision. And that is THE ENTIRE GORRAM PROBLEM.
     
  14. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2010
    To comment on that sentiment, I would say that the book does make it clear that Revan doesn't exactly leave with the intention of not coming back. For what that is worth considering.
     
  15. Commander-DWH

    Commander-DWH Manager Emeritus star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2003
    It's worth considering in the light that Revan is either more or less of a deadbeat dad. It doesn't really have anything to do with Bastila's agency, though. She wasn't given a choice, whether he was coming back or not. There was no discussion, and I have a problem with that.
     
  16. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2010
    I suppose my point was more pertaining to the implicitly expressed idea that Revan's departure was accelerated by learning that Bastila was pregnant. It was, but mostly out of a paternal impulse to confront a threat to his family rather than some excuse to flee from his responsibility as a parent. If that makes any sense.

    As to the matter of agency, while it is certainly true that Bastila isn't keen on Revan leaving (after all, she initially thought that she was going with him), I'm not sure if I got the impression from the text that she was completely railroaded into staying against her will. At least not anymore than when the Exile also convinced her to stay.
     
  17. DarthRevan211

    DarthRevan211 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2008
    I think it's less deadbeat dad and more drafted soldier. He doesn't get to have a choice and neither does she.
     
  18. Commander-DWH

    Commander-DWH Manager Emeritus star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2003
    I suppose what I was getting at was not that it accelerated his departure, as that would not be remotely supportable by the text, but more that it didn't even give him a moment of mental pause. That moment of, "Oh. Maybe I should rethink this leaving thing." Obviously he'd still leave, but the fact that his impeding fatherdom doesn't give him any pause is a troublesome characterization.

    And one doesn't have to be 'completely railroaded' to be left with no real choices. There's a spectrum, and Bastila was on the less acceptable end of it.
     
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  19. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    You're sure it can't beat "Then as long as Revan doesn't mock her for the crazy beyotch that she is, it takes at least another two conversations to pry the legs apart. 12 or 13 tries at that well?!? Bastila is waaaay high maintenance."?

    Because I don't think it can.

    You seem to be having a hard time with this, so let's try it one more time: calling someone who behaves in a "high-maintenance" fashion "high-maintenance" may not be misogynist. It's not necessary to get into it, so I'll spot you that one. Calling someone high-maintenance on the basis that it takes a dozen conversations before she'll have sex with you? Probably not indicative of a healthy relationship with the female sex.

    EDIT: Also, would it kill you to learn to spell my screenname? It's right on the screen. It shouldn't be too hard to get right.
     
  20. Cull_Tremayne

    Cull_Tremayne Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2005
    I think he was being a little bit facetious with his comments there. He was talking about it in a gaming sense, as it's an objective in a game that he was annoyed with. I'm not sure carrying those comments over to real-life is all that fair.

    For the record, I think Genghis is all wrong on Bastila's characterization, and it's a bummer that she played little to no role in this novel.
     
  21. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    It would be one thing if that was the only comment, and if it was made in the context of a complaint about gameplay rather than one about how that character is being characterized, as a female character.

    But more importantly, CULLLLLLLLLLLLL. Welcome back and post more, now.:p
     
  22. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    In defense of Bastila choosing to focus on raising her child and not doing much else... is it really that wrong? I mean the Jedi were her only real family, her father is dead, her mother is likely dead. The Jedi she knew and grew up with are almost all dead. And the other members of the Ebon Hawk crew, she and them never really got along. I mean they don't hate each other but their not really that close. Revan was the only real family and loved one she had. And Bastila would know that Revan might have to go off and fight, he might have to die. That was a risk they both took, Bastila would know that more than likely they weren't going to live happily ever after. Did she expect she would go off and fight, and die, with him? Probably. But Revan didn't want that, he obviously didn't want that for any of his companions. So he leaves them all behind, even though Bastila is pregnant. Which gives him more of a reason to leave her behind, if Revan didn't want to risk Bastila why would he then want to risk his unborn child as well?

    So Bastila is left alone with a child. And she now has a choice, she can go back and try to fix the galaxy on her own and raise her child, or she can focus all that's left of her life on raising her child to be the best he can be. And that child is also now the only family and loved one she has.

    Could she have become the new grandmaster or something and still raised her son? Yes, but considering the example star wars has set with Han and Leia raising their children while focusing on their careers, they don't have a great track record. Same with Mara and Luke, it takes one parent dying to prevent the other from becoming the apprentice to the new Dark Lord. I'm not saying that continuing your career and mission in life is bad if you have a kid, it's not, there are just risks. And for Bastila, having her child being the only person left, would she really want to risk losing her son as well? She's already lost EVERYONE else.

    I think it's perfectly conceivable that Bastila had her son and just said 'Kark it, I've already lost enough for this galaxy. I won't lose my only son too." And not to mention, maybe Bastila simply found that raising her son gave her more joy than being a Jedi out saving the galaxy, after all she's been through I'm pretty sure she deserves some happiness.
     
  23. Cull_Tremayne

    Cull_Tremayne Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Fair enough. :p

    My first thought was more, "Wow, that is freaking harsh!" :p And yes, good to be back. What happened to all the doom and gloom around here? :D
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    GenAntilles: The whole point is that she didn't choose. Revan did, and essentially Bastila just had to deal with it.
     
  25. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    (I'll let it be known now I haven't read the book yet, I'm just going off on what has been discussed. If I make any errors about what I'm about to say and if it contradicts the book somehow please let me know.)

    I just don't see how she didn't choose to do what she did. Revan leaves her behind, how does that give her only the choice to raise her son on her own and do only that? What's to stop her from following after Revan the moment he leaves? Padme followed Anakin, while pregnant with twins, after he told her not to after all. I just fail to see how Bastila was forced into this situation where there is only one option. She had options, she could've followed Revan, either by herself or with all the other old companions. If she didn't want the baby she could have had it aborted. She was left with options, she choose the option to stay behind and raise her son the best she could. It was not an ideal situation at all, but it was not one without options.

    I would've liked it if Bastila had a larger role in the novel, I would have liked it if all the other companions had a larger role, or any role for that matter. I would've liked it if the Exile's companions and story had more of an impact. But I don't hold it against Bastila or consider it a poor choice for her to choose to spend her time raising the only son she has, the only loved one she has left.