CT The old ghost anakin, hair? No Scares?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhiskeyGold, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry if talked about over and over but I dont see why people dont like that the ghost of Anakin returned to his younger self? I give you that it looks dumb and should have been done better. But even as a kid I never got why the old anakin ghost looked so different from the man that was vader. He had hair, no scares. So as a kid, I thought "that must have been how he looked before turning to the dark side".
    I guess it would be best to show him as a ghost how he looked when Luke took over his mask.
    I can understand a ghost going back to his younger self but i cant explain why he got hair and no scares? I see a lot of people complain that he shouldn't go back to a younger self cause he turned good at the end but no one ever tells me why his ghost went out a got a wig.
    So if you like the old anakin at the end, why do you think he looks so different?
  2. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 2
    The old ghost was Luca's original vision of what Vader would have looked like had he never turned to the dark side or gotten scars (prior to the PT). I personally like the Hayden Ghost, although I do wish it was Hayden's entire body, as opposed to just his head on Shaw's body. Seems a little off to me. But the Hayden ghost, to me, confirms Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" that Anakin died when Vader was born. Why would his spirit age when he's been "dead" until very recently, then just died again?
  3. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    Do we really need another thread debating Hayden versus Shaw? Me no tink so.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  4. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    No, we dont, this is the to ask those that like the old anakin, why did he grow hair and no scares
    as for the guy that said obi-wan wasn't cut in half, I always thought he disappeared before being cut
    darklordoftech likes this.
  5. gobalicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2010
    star 1
    The ghosts only appear to Luke. I like to think their appearance is shaped by Luke's memories and perceptions of the person. The ghost Anakin represents the noble Jedi father Luke had idolized, aspired to become, and wished was still alive. It makes sense he would want to see this side of his father rather than the man scarred by the dark side.
  6. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    ^^Totally agree.^^

    Luke never saw the young Anakin. He only knew the older, post-Vader Anakin, which is how the ghost should have remained. Luke did sacrifice himself to the Empire in order to try to turn Anakin back to the good side. It's a shame George took that redeemed Anakin image out of the movie.
  7. Duragizer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2009
    star 3
    Ghosts in various media have been shown to have the ability to take on appearances they didn't have in life. Why should it be any different in SW?
  8. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I think it would be ghoulish if Anakin appeared to Luke without arms and legs, scarred up and deathly pale. It's supposed to be a moment of elation and celebration, celebration the restoration of his spirit and all the potential that could have been. That it's to some degree in Luke's head, e.g. the ghosts only appear to him, gives some leeway in terms of literalizing them. In some ways it's the "healed" version of the individual at the age they passed--Yoda isn't coughing up his lung from the cancer or pneumonia that killed him (or whatever it was), Ben isn't cut in two and Anakin's wounds have been restored to health. Such "healing" metaphor works pretty well with Anakin, actually, he has been physically cleansed of the Vader-wounds to illustrate the cleansing of his spirit.

    I mean, when your dealing with ghosts, it's hard to really pin down logic so strictly. Why would a ghost need physical form anyway? They clearly can manifest their form at will, and then disappear into wherever at will as well. The reason is they are manifesting themselves for Luke, so that he can see them and know that he did well. But he only knew Ben as an old man, so Ben has to manifest himself as Luke knew him, otherwise if Ewan McGregor was there he wouldn't know what was going on. And Yoda appears as he was at the beginning of the film, because that's the only form Luke knew Yoda as, the old Jedi teacher in his hand-made clothing. And he only saw Anakin for two minutes, so he has to appear as the old Anakin that Luke just said goodbye to. It also makes a powerful statement: "You were right about me." Anakin didn't die as Ben thought, Ben was wrong, Luke was actually wiser than both his teachers because Anakin was in there all along, imprisoned and growing old, and now here he is, the old man that everyone but Luke denied existed. Showing up as de-helmeted Vader like Luke saw in the previous scene is creepy and works against this message, so he has to be in his normal robes (or Jedi robes, if you prefer).
  9. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    zombie, well said.

    When we see ghost Shaw, what we're really seeing is Anakin's soul, intact and in the form of the Jedi he was meant to be.
  10. klooney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    I think it makes more sense that it is younger Anakin but I'm still confused as to why Anakin has a force ghost at all. Or do all Jedi have force ghosts? Where was Qui Gon's force ghost in the films? Or Dooku's for that matter since he was a Jedi at one point. All the Jedi force ghosts should have been swarming after Order 66. Why can't Leah see the force ghosts or why wouldn't they show themselves to her if she is force-sensitive? I guess I just have to accept that there's no logic behind force ghosts.
  11. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    If all the jedi;s can be ghost, why would that mean they need to show them all? If there are ghost in real life, and someone see a loved one, that doesnt mean they will see every ghost there is or even every ghost related to them

    also i think only those that know how to become one with force can be a ghost.
    QJ learned this, tells Yoda how and Ben how. Maybe even Vader?
    There no QJ ghost at the end cause Luke has no idea who that is
  12. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    The PT tended to screw up the scene, because now there are too many questions to ask, and there really is no satisfactory explanation other than a rather vague and unsatisfying "He's the chosen one" or the more or less inconsequential "read the EU." The original scene needed no explanation, any more than we needed one when we heard Ben's voice after he died. I suppose that's not a very helpful answer, but there really isn't one to give. You sort of have to either ignore the whole logic behind it all or go back to the original version which was perfect.

    I do remember a time when there was such thing as a Special Edition of Return of the Jedi that got rid of the cheesy Ewok music like a lot of SE fans today prefer while also retaining all the meaning of the original version like a lot of OOT fans (and some SE fans) prefer. Shame that harmony was disrupted.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Through the intervention of Yoda and Ben.

    No, as Yoda's ROTS dialogue indicates.

    Heard but not seen in AOTC; communicating with Yoda prior to "Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact".

    As an unredeemed Sith who never learned the ability, Dooku doesn't ghost.
  14. IG-85 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Before the 2004 DVDs, I always assumed that when you saw Shaw's ghost at the end of Jedi, that when you become one with the force after death, your ghost comes back as what you looked like when you died in the physical body, rather than what you looked like before the good person inside you died before going to the darkside, meaning Hadyen's young looking Vader.

    Is Lucas now saying that your ghost will come back as your good incarnation before you turned evil rather than just what you looked like when you died?
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Well, ol' Ben didn't show up bisected either. Being a ghost comes with privileges.
  16. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    I think as a Ghost and they are 'more powerful' they can come back at any age or even at any time. I think Anakin liked himself more as a young jedi and not as the old Darth man. So he I can see him coming out as a ghost of the younger man he was. So Anakin, at the time, choice to show Luke what he WAS and not what LUKE saw him as.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yea, an unstable bastard that fell to the dark side and had no qualms slaughtering children.
    Why would he show himself to Luke as his younger version again?
  18. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Cause it was his Anakin look, Ankin didnt kill the younglins, Vader did. I do think maybe Lucas should have went momre with a AOTC Anakin look.
    Also I am sure as Vader, he did a lot worst between ROTS and ANH than killing kids
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    ROTS Anakin was a man who had already commited genocide and was on the brink of pledging his soul to the dark side.

    You seem to miss the point of the Shaw-Anakin. He wasn't supposed to be the younger version (because he was obviously not younger, Lucas could've taken another Actor and so on). The point was, that this is a new Anakin, one who has atoned and learned from his mistakes. A redeemed person and not a copy of his own, flawed self. Vaders redemption was about moving forward in life, entering a new stage through willpower and compassion.
  20. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Here's the difference:

    Christensen-Anakin implies Vader and Anakin were two different people, so after Vader's death, we see the ghost of the young man Anakin who was lost when Vader died.

    Shaw-Anakin implies that Vader and Anakin are two personalities that were entangled in the some body. This Vader/Anakin was redeemed at the end of his life. To me, this is a much more profound interpretation, but Lucas seems dead-set on shifting away from it.
  21. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Unfortunately, Shaw-Anakin has a very profound scene based around that whole idea which is still in the film. That's why the finale doesn't make sense. Anakin never died, and the entire climax of the film is predicated on this one idea. In fact, that's the whole point of Luke's entire arc in the film, that he believed his father wasn't truly dead, and that he was right in that convinction.

    "There is still good in you. I feel the conflict."
    "There is no conflict."

    cut to end of movie

    "You were right, Luke. You were right about me. Tell your sister: you were right."

    Brilliant.

    Then he dies but Hayden shows up at the end instead. What?
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Literally that is true, but in metaphorical terms the Jedi see turning to the dark side as a form of death. Were it not for Luke, Vader probably would never again have committed a good act. The change from good to bad is seen as a destruction of the good person. If a darksider is redeemed you have metaphorical death but then metaphorical rebirth. These are not subject to the standard that would be expected for a literal death or rebirth because they are about the condition of the luminous being, not the physical body.
  23. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    In metaphorical terms, a lot of what the Jedi believe turns out to be wrong in the end. Luke's story is kind of the point of this. Clearly Ben and Yoda think Anakin is metaphorically dead, but clearly they are completely wrong.
  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Unfortunately, the "luminous beings" aspect invalidates* the "midichlorian/Vader=half of Anakin's pre-fall Force potential" theory.

    *and, using the "luminous beings" aspect only in conjunction with force-ghosting (but nothing else) just underscores that fact.


    QFT.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, they would be wrong to think he was literally dead. In a sense they are not wrong to think that he was metaphorically dead, because that really just means that he turned to the dark side. They were wrong if they thought he was irredeemable.

    :confused:

    If you tested Vader the same way he was tested in TPM at any time after Mustafar he would have the same midichlorian count that he had in TPM. Midichlorians and luminous beings are not contradictory plot points. They coexist in the same continuity. Dumping luminous beings is not an option.