This definition/"equation" - turned to the dark side = "metaphorically dead" - is never given/made in OT films (neither is "turning" to the dark side, I might add). And the sense that they were wrong to think he was even 'metaphorically' dead are two-fold: 1. in the PT: pre-suited 'Vader' was practically identical character-wise with the pre-turn Anakin who slaughtered Tuskens and murdered Dooku. 2. in the OT: Vader's 'confict' (from the end of ESB through the end of ROTJ) showed that Anakin was still alive (not just 'physically' speaking). added note: and only Ben calls Anakin "dead"...Yoda, both OT and PT, says that he was "consumed" by the dark side/Vader. However, if "irredeemable" practically means the same thing to the two Jedi as "metaphorically dead", then I don't see how you'd be able to split-hairs* between the two. * i.e. they were 'right' that he was 'metaphorically dead' but 'wrong' that he was 'irredeemable'. Speaking of 'redemption', and your claim that "redeemed" in SW means "return to the light side", keep in mind that no such thing is described in the OT either. There's talk about bringing Vader/Anakin "back to the good side", but nothing about 'light side (of the Force)'. So you'd still have to define what is meant by 'redeemed'. TOSCHISTATION posted: "Unfortunately, the "luminous beings" aspect invalidates* the "midichlorian/Vader=half of Anakin's pre-fall Force potential" theory. *and, using the "luminous beings" aspect only in conjunction with force-ghosting - but nothing else - just underscores that fact." I think Lucas' "suited-Vader-had-X-percentage-of-the-Force-potential-that-Anakin-originally-had" comment gave some the impression that he/Vader had lost some of his midi's (midi's being a physical aspect, and all). Oh, I quite agree. The option is to 'dump' the "half-potential" Vader/Anakin theory , not the 'luminous beings' aspect (which came first). Besides, D & D game 'stats' have no place in Star Wars.