The origin of Order 66 and the Clones' expansion to other templates

This corresponds nicely with my explanation of the line 'The time has come'; Sidious informed the commanders of the legions of his suspicions of an upcoming Jedi coup. It still doesn't mean Order 66 was programmed somehow.

 

It was after the clone wars. There are two mission which are really not much more than excuses to have Stormtroopers vs. Battle Droids and Stormies vs. Clones.

 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in CWA. While ROTS certainly shows the clones as unflinchingly obedient, other EU sources have painted a very different picture of late all the way up to the clones feeling betrayed by the Jedi.

I personally prefer the clones as more human so I prefer the takes in Republic Commando, Dark Lord and even CWA. That being that the clones were following orders, but that it wasn't an automatic predetrmined response.

I fear that if they don't go this route at least with Rex that CWA will be travelling down a dark path. It will be very hard for people to look at Rex as a hero, as almost a big brother to Ahsoka if he accepts that evil order.

 

Well, while I initially thought, upon first seeing the film, that the order was programed into them, given their abrupt change in behavior, all the little things that suggest the clones were complicit with Palpatine in helping him get the Jedi out of the way, cover their tracks, etc. I know that officially, given Lucas' input, that the order wasn't programmed, and was a contingency plan. However, all those little things that suggest complicity remain, making it (IMO) very awkward if you watch the film with the mindset that they were loyal to their Jedi generals - during the time immediately leading up to Order 66 - and turned on them so abruptly for no other reason than because Palpatine was the one ordering it. In the film itself, the little things the clones do, don't suggest to me that this is the first time the prospect of a Jedi rebellion is brought to their attention; now add to this that TCW explicitly went out of its way to establish the point that the clones are perfectly capable of acting independently and disobeying orders. Now, when watching ROTS, it makes the scene not just awkward IMO, but a plot hole. I am not looking for Lucas to retcon his decision and instead go with the idea that the clones were programmed. Rather, I think that HumbleJedi has the right idea (or at least I share the same view) that it seems that Palpatine kept in contact with the clones and that perhaps there was some event during the Clone Wars in which the Jedis actions drastically shook the clones' trust in them, so that by the time Order 66 was given, it was confirming a suspicion (allowing the clones to be prepared for a possible "Jedi Rebellion"), rather than being a completely arbitrary order, that the clones were following without thinking, simply because it was an order.

It is my hope that Filoni realizes this (if Lucas does not) and develops such plot points to create greater consistency in story. How he does it, I don't care so much. If he does nothing and leaves the story as is, I think it's a missed opportunity to further solidify the story.

I think it could be resolved by having some ethical issue brought up in the story (I gave the example of introducing new clone templates, but it could just as well be some other ethical issue) that the Jedi take one stance on, but that the clones (having demonstrated their ability to discern right and wrong) take an opposing stance on, and through which Palpatine as the head of the army, could garner more trust among the clones to himself rather than to their individual generals.

 

Dark Lord's position is that loyalty to the Chancellor was programmed in some way, just not the order itself.

 

Yet that "loyalty" didn't stop Climber's team from firing on Vader or Climber briefly escaping. Vader, being the Chancellor's assigned right hand man, I would suspect they would unflinchingly accept Climber's punishment. They do not. There is that human element there.

I have not read Dark Lord in a long while but I do question this idea of programming based on that source. The idea that the clones would individually need to be in communication with Palpatine to act doesn't have much basis.

Climber's actions had a direct relation to his life being saved by Roan Shryne and he feeling some connection/loyalty to the man, at least as I remember it but like I say its been a while.

Now that I type this it reminds me a bit of Zey and Maze in RC: Order 66. Maze disobeyed the order as well because he was close to Zey, even if only briefly before following through as per Zey's request.

 

It's ultimately no different from what was established in AOTC by Obi-Wan's conversation with Lama Su. The army is for the Republic, and the Chancellor is considered the commander-in-chief of the GAR. Dark Lord specified that loyalty to the Chancellor was more evident in the case of the clone commanders; thus the book's stance does not in fact contradict itself.

Who said clones would need to be in communication with Palpatine to act? The fact is that ROTS showed the clone commanders were in communication with Palpatine, and the clones followed their commanders ( with some exceptions in EU due to what Palpatine termed "contagion" ). It's a chain of command.

 

It's something that has been discussed around the boards. Climber didn't disobey Palpatine but he thought his commander had made an error or some such notion. That he wanted clarification on the order.

Dark Lord's position is that loyalty to the Chancellor was programmed in some way

The way I look at "programed" means that there is no ability to go against the programming. Yet in going against the orders of his commanding officer Climber did just that. His entire team does the same later on, IIRC.

We can term it whatever we like, but some clones went against the "programming" which makes me think there was individuality amoungst them.

Many EU sources present this as I mentioned earlier, including Dark Lord from my point of view. There are many examples of the clones going against orders, it's not the norm of course, only a small percentage, but it does exist. This is why I view the loyalty to the Republic as more a form of brainwashing or indoctrination than genetic programming.

My apologies to Lama Su, but I don't buy the sales pitch based on everything I've read.

 

I don't disagree, because I don't know how you would program such a thing "genetically".

 

Well, I can't speak for others, but when people refer to "programming" I think they are referring to what you are describing. Not literal genetic programming (e.g. a base pair sequence of ACT-GCC-CAT doesn't code for "obey Palpatine"), rather I think they are talking about mental "programming"/brainwashing/hypnosis as you described. That when Palpatine says "execute Order 66" it's like saying "when I say the word peanut, you quack like a duck." Palpatine says "execute Order 66" and the clones just start behaving conspicuously different without so much as a pause.

Personally, I don't like the idea of brainwashing, and I hope Filoni develops the idea into something else, since it kind of makes all their individuality irrelevant. I simply think they're being good soldiers, but even the best soldiers (in a democratic and progressive society) are likely going to refuse an order to slaughter a village of innocents. In Vietnam we see a lot of war crimes as soldiers get stressed, and the minds of soldiers break down (similar to Chopper collecting droid fingers as he makes the war personal). If something happens to raise suspicions of the Jedi among the clones, especially when the clones have been fighting a long drawn out war for 3 years and are developing mental defects, it could reconcile them being "good soldiers" with their actions. In the EU, there are fabricated excuses as to why individual Jedi generals were killed, like for poisoning the water supply of a planet or destroying a bridge, etc. The clones were there, and should know full well that these things did not occur, but they remained (at least as it stands) complicit in the cover up. The missing element of course is that - short of brainwashing - no extenuating circumstances have been shown to demonstrate why the clones would commit what is essentially a war crime. Particularly the clones that respond to a simple nod, and are not receiving the order first hand, let alone verbally. Neyo gives his brother a simple nod to fire upon Stass Allie without verbal communication, and Yoda's clone commander (I forget his name) gives his brother a simple nod to do the same.

 

Gree

 

TaradosGon: I always assumed the Clones simply got the communication through the comm gear in their helmets, thats why they all got it so quick. That could simply be my speculation though, I dunno.

To put a twist on this as the Republic Commando series did, it could be that the clones truly believed that the Jedi had betrayed the Republic. RC gives a voice to both Bacara and Maze and thats clearly what they believed. They felt betrayed by the Jedi. With or without political spin Mace Windu's attempt to remove Palpatine from office was illegal and could have been actually considered a coup attempt by many. The problem was the guy making the laws made it likely next to impossible to remove him via legal means, be it through Order 65 or another avenue.

Thats why I think I'm going to find the CWA take on order 66 interesting if we get that far. Just to see some new potential ideas about how the order worked and mostly to see how it will effect Rex. Being that Dave Filoni and company have no requirement to stick to what came before we might get an interesting new take on the matter.

 

I think it would be easier, for some anyway, to believe that the Clones were programmed (aka brainwashing, indoctrination, etc.), because that would make the Clones inadvertent pawns instead of evil, identical soldiers. So far in Clone Wars the Clones have been portrayed as heroic, friendly, loyal, and all other sorts of good things, which makes, as others have also said, their lack of hesitation when ordered to kill the Jedi seem very odd.

Programming or no, I don't think you can underestimate what being raised from birth to follow orders and be a good soldier can do to the mind. And I'm guessing a fair bit of genetic manipulation went into it, otherwise they'd all be loose cannons like Jango.

Obviously there are a few clones who didn't follow Order 66. But they were few. It could because of their experiences, or because they strayed too much from their genetic template.

I really am interested to see how they develop the clones in the animated series. We've seen two very different sides of the Clones, now they just need to connect them. Hopefully they do this over the course of the series.

 

They presumably have to heed Lucas' input and refrain from contradicting the films.

 

I'm not 100% positive, but I think it's been established that the clone commanders were the ones that received the order. Neyo did receive the order through his comm gear (he looks like he's pressing a button on the side of his helmet when he's receiving the order), but the non-commander clones I do not think had the order directly given to them.

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It's also interesting that Obi-Wan and Yoda seem completely un-amazed at what happened. When Anakin turns, Yoda (when watching the recordings of the Jedi Temple) is saddened, and Obi-Wan in particular shows signs that he is upset. But when Cody, his commander for three years, fires on him all he says is something to the effect of "something's happened, my clones have turned on me" in a tone that lacks shock or surprise. Similarly, when Yoda decapitates Gree Yoda looks more like he is suspicious of them rather than looking like he feels betrayed.

Also, when Slick (was that the commander that betrayed the Republic in TCW?) sides with the Separatists and the other clones find out, it's interesting that for the most part they do not accuse him of betraying the Republic. Rather, the mostly talk about how he "sold out his brothers," etc. And when Slick defends himself, he doesn't do so in a completely selfish way, but says he did it for his brothers. In the game Republic Commando, when Sev goes missing and the commandos are recalled, Scorch advocates disobeying orders to go find Sev (his brother). The clones may have been raised with a reduced sense of individuality in that they don't pursue their own self interests (like Jango), but their interests seem to be more collective among each other "as brothers" than it is to the Republic. Slick was sort of the odd man out, since even though he felt he was serving a greater purpose in fighting for his brothers' freedom, the rest of the clones didn't agree with him, and so Slick should never have went against their will. If that incident was foreshadowing that more and more clones will share such sentiment, then the bond of "brothers" could supercede their loyalty to the Jedi if they think that the Jedi are the ones dragging the war out and getting their brothers killed.

 

Thats what I mean. The film itself will not be contradicted because if offers no take on what we're discussing. We don't get to know the clones in the films, we don't get inside their heads in the films, we don't even hear their opinions in the films. All this detail is wholely EU.

TaradosGon: I've always felt that Obi and Yoda don't react to the clone betrayal because they viewed the clones more as droids or even animals as opposed to people. Ambush changes my take a little for Yoda, but not that much. It's kinda like Obi is saying "My dog bit me".

 

Filoni seems to try and not steamroll EU continuity wherever possible. For instance, in the commentary for the episode Lair of Grievous, he talks about how in the EU, Grievous was a warrior whose shuttle was shot down by the Separatists - with Grievous being told it was the Republic - and that his body was retrieved by the Separatists and rebuilt. Filoni then says that Lucas' back story for Grievous was something to the effect that Grievous wanted to prove his worth as a warrior by becoming a Jedi, but that the Jedi turned him away and so he holds a grudge and became a cyborg of his own free will so that he could enhance his abilities. Filoni intentionally kept it vague so that Lucas' idea isn't 100% clear and someone that's familiar with the EU explanation could go on believing that back story.

Because TCW isn't going to fit into established continuity well, I personally don't think Filoni should even try to reconcile the two and just steamroll it with new ideas to create a new, more official, continuity. Instead he seems a little shy about altering characters and established plot lines.

 

See thats the real trick isn't it

From what I've read Filoni wanted to incorporate as much of the pre-existing continuity as he could and George kinda put the kybosh on that. I like what he did with Grievous, how he didn't destroy the Qymaen jai Sheelal backstory completely but just left it open for a slight adjustment.

I've been in the middle of this type of discussion in Lit enough over the past year or so, as Republic Commando has taken to overwriting existing continuity as well in minor ways(that are major for some ). Personally I'm not a big fan of the Clone Wars era outside of the films, RC and this series. I never really got into the comics or books that much though I read many of them.

That said I like that Filoni has not bulldozed continuity completely, by mearly including Grievous's Kaleesh battle mask in Lair he's done well. I'm pleased he's taken that approach because every story that came before is someones favorite, even if it wasn't my own favorite. So where he can avoid direct overwriting I think he should.

 

Filoni's being-- and there's no better way to put it-- very *nice* to EU fans. It's kind of sweet, actually. And I totally identify with his position! I'm not an EU fan at all, so I don't have any personal investment in TCW having continuity with anything but the films. But I like plenty of *people* who are EU fans, and I don't like to see them get upset if they don't have to. So I take a position very similar to Filoni's myself. Quick example, I kinda hate the idea of Aurra Sing being a Force user, but I don't see why TCW should ever ruin anyone's enjoyment of her in the EU by specifically saying she's not. The Grievous backstory is another case in point.

 

Continuity is what you make of it. Sure, there might be an "official" canon as far is Lucas is concerned, but even if TCW explicitly says that Grievous voluntarily became a cyborg to enhance his skills, nothing is to stop fans from reading the comics, preferring that back story, and adhering to it. Lucas isn't going to come visit their house with a gun and make them denounce the EU story. Continuity also has a way of fixing itself, like how Lucas says Darth Ruin is the first Sith Lord and the EU reconciles that by saying he's the first Sith lord in the line of Sith leading to Palpatine, but he's not the first Sith Lord ever. Or the same way in which Lucas says Boba Fett is a clone and his previous back stories get relegated to rumors and speculative stories. If Aurra Sing was explicitly said to not have force powers, I'm sure the stories involving her as being a force wielder might just become histories or stories she fabricated on her own to enhance her reputation. Keeping it vague doesn't make for a good story, since you're not actually learning anything.

 

I was under the impression we were still supposed to believe ( to some extent ) the TOTBH backstory of Boba Fett via retcon, but the OS is vague on the subject, calling the previous Fett origin stories "half-truths":

 

But lets take Grievous for example. Lair is an excellent episode but nothing is lost by what Filoni did. Is the story now worse because it doesn't completely overwrite the previous back story? I don't think so.

Add to that; the Clone Wars Animated Visual Guide does reference the Grievous backstory. It's just a matter of making them fit together. Grievous had to come from somewhere.

I agree that there is always personal canon, but I don't think that Filoni and company including nods to the EU makes for a worse story, it adds to the possibilities.

Even little bits like mentioning that the Lurmen fled their homeworld to escape the Clone Wars is fun because it leaves the door open to them actually being refugees from Mygeeto. Not to say that they are, but the possiblity is there and I think that great for all Star Wars fans that these little holes do exist.

 

I think some of the (inconsistent) statements made addressing such issues can be attributed to thoughts running thru GL's head at the time. Star Wars is a work in progress, and really those chapters aren't written yet. I suspect the LAS will touch on such subjects, and maybe offer the most definitive answers we will ever get.

 

I haven't read it yet but I hope these are the kind of questions that get answered in the Order 66 book

 

After some thought, it makes perfect sense that Order 66 was programmed. Come on; the clones have been fighting alongside the jedi for 3 years. Clones such as Cody & Rex became friends with the Jedi, and they know each other's tactics inside and out. Then when order 66 comes, suddenly they are all "Kill Jedi" in seconds with no second thoughts?