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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The *original* film and the "Saga"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Gregatron, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. Gregatron

    Gregatron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    (Note: I posted an earlier version of this in the CT forum, but it didn't really work out. I think, with a little retooling, it'll be more appropriate here. I do hope it doesn't get locked this time, and that people actually respond...)


    Now, I love all the Star Wars films, but it's very clear to me that George Lucas has been making a *lot* of this up as he's gone along (and retroactively changing what's already been established). There have been numerous retcons and additions that have diluted the original version of the orignal film of the Star Wars universe.

    Mind you, there are many days where I totally *get* and love the idea of the "Saga", and enjoy playing around with meshing all 6 films together and seeing how they work, but at the same time, I mourn the elegant simplicity of the original vision, and the fact that it's been diminished and turned into merely "EPISODE IV OF VI". And even today, the first film still feels inconsistent compared to the others. It doesn't...quite...fit. And not just with all 6 films as a whole, but with only the original trilogy, as well. And the Special Edition changes, of course, have diminished its simple charm even more.

    Keep in mind when reading everything below: I *love* all the films, and I'm just playing devil's advocate for the original incartnation of the first film (After all, the film has no mouth with which to defend itself...). But man, we fans are a gullible lot for accepting all these retcons as gospel.

    When the first film came out, anyone could go and see it. Certainly, there were references to past events, but they weren't really supposed to be explained. Viewers were thrown into a battle between Good and Evil. Now, the "Saga" has become so complex, so dense, so morally ambiguous that civilians would have a tough time getting into the series. Where is a first-time viewer to start? With Episode I? But Episode IV is the one that *really* sets up how the Galaxy works, the one that subtlely shows us through context what a droid, what a Jedi is, and what a lightsaber is.

    It's funny how there are so many who think it's all been planned from the start, and try to shoehorn all the retconned info into the existing films. Lucas mentions the "original script" many times in the 2004 DVD audio commentaries, inmplying that several retcons were always in there (I'd very much like to see this mythical "original script"...if it even exists, that is...). Seems to me that Lucas wanted to make the ultimate popcorn movie with Star Wars. But, to paraphrase comic book legend John Byrne (his message board has offered *many* interesting ideas/observations about the retcons in the films--a few of which I'll discuss), Lucas started out trying to make Flash Gordon (a simple fantasy film), and ended up trying to turn it into Dune (a GRAND SAGA) from The Empire Strikes Back onward. Empire marks the first appearance of the "Saga" concept, with the tagline, "The Star Wars Saga Continues...".

    Was Star Wars planned to be a "Saga" all along? How much of it was planned? I hope to use this thread to examine some of these questions, as well as re-examining the original vision of the first film, as well as the different ways the series *could* have gone (both in terms of the rest of the original trilogy, as well as the prequels).

    This thread is also designed to celebrate the *original* vision--at least, the *apparent* vision (what we can infer from watching the first film by itself, not necessarily what Lucas had planned). I wasn't even alive when the first film came out, yet I still think about and mourn the original vision. So, in honor of the end of the series on May 19 with Episode III, let's travel back to the bygone days of the Marvel Comic series, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Holiday Special, and the one and only STAR WARS, before everything got so complex! So, I think we should use this thread to celebrate the original vision of the *original* film, and the simple magic that drew us all in. And maybe discuss some of the point's I've raised above, and the stories/sequels
     
  2. darth-amedda

    darth-amedda Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Well, the original post is very complex, so I'll try to refer only to few issues.

    "Was Star Wars planned to be a "Saga" all along? How much of it was planned?"

    From what I remember Lucas planned it to be a few-episodes film but wasn't sure if he might make it.

    For example that was a reason why - being afraid of the possible loosing the most spectacular scene - he inserted attack on the Death Star into ANH, although it had been originally planned to happen in the last episode (and that's the reason for Death Star 2).

    And of course ANH itself have many implications that open space for the possible sequels. For example, if SW'77 had been planned just for one episode, I think it would have Vader - as the main villain - being killed at the end. I guess keeping him alive was important considering possibility of the following episodes.

    "There is no hidden meaning to the Obi-Wan/Vader duel, or why Obi-Wan calls him "Darth"."

    I'm not saying that everything was fixed already at that moment, but I remember that I felt somehow anxious after Vader-Obi duel as instead answering most of the questions it opened even more new ones (e.g. why did Obi1 disappear?). Of course, your explanation is possible, but still this scene fits very smoothly to the storyline developed in the following eps.

    "The later films twist and destroy the simplicity of Obi-Wan's character as seen in the first film. They turn his into a manipulative liar. Instead of being the classic, wise father-figure the first film presents him as, Obi-Wan is revealed to have lied to Luke at almost every turn".

    Again, there is no clear indication for such tenedency in ANh, but still Guiness acting makes it very plausible that his character is hiding sth (you can read it as the painful memories, but seeing it as the sign of double-thoughts is equally possible).

    "The twin sister in Jedi (the "other" mentioned in Empire was intended to be Luke's sister) was supposed to be a *new* character, but in the interests of time and such, it was decided that Leia was Luke's sister/Vader's daughter".

    Possible, but I haven't heard about it. Is it reliable?

    People are quick to try to insert retroactive meanings into the films (to make the retcons fit) where there were no meanings, originally.

    Yes, but GL is using this ability in a clever way. I think it makes the whole SW enterprise even more interesting, turning it into more "alive", ongoing process (e.g. I don't think that in 80 he planned that Anakin created 3PO, but now TPM adds nice subtext to the scene on bespin, when Vader is "rescuing" droid, blocking Boba's shooting).

    Of course, I don't think anyone sensible will believe that in 77 GL had the whole plan for the all episodes in his head (with all characters, plots, relationships etc.) - rather general, sketchy, fuzzy idea. Actually he openly admits that he creates the story while the following films are being made. For example from the "Making of" books you can clearly see that specific parts of the story are sometimes "generated" by the art concepts or influenced by other films. I would see it as some kind of Work in Progress. But actually, I don't see, why it would have to be bad or wrong.








     
  3. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    I don't know why, but that post makes me sad... :(

    ... interesting, though. :(
     
  4. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    to quote the film's novelization, Kenobi, unlike Owen Lars, "could not take refuge in a comfortable lie"

    That's why he took refuge in an uncomfortable lie ;)



    The complexity of Star Wars is simple
    /LM
     
  5. colivo

    colivo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2004
    I know Lucas made ANH as a single movie with a satisfying ending, just in case it didn't do well, and he wasn't able to finish the trilogy.

    The reason why the original is loved by a lot of Non Star Wars fans because:

    1. It was so different than anybody had ever seen in 1977.

    2. It was a basic good vs. evil. And everything in the movie about the force, dark side, etc. was explained in general terms.

    3. It is also very funny, but not too funny where it begins to overshadow the movie. Luke, Leia, and Han Solo have great chemistry, and you really love these characters, which makes you root for them.

    4. Finally, when you start making sequels to great movies, you are than appealing to the hard core fans of the movie. What no one ever thought is that there are SO MANY hardcore fans of Star Wars! Sequels don't play to the general audience, in ESB you really learn about the force through Yoda, you learn Darth Vader is Lukes father, and begin to see that Leia and Han Solo are in love with each other. Unless you really like or love Star Wars, that won't be particularly interesting to you after ANH.

    I definitely believe Lucas had a general outline of the whole saga before and after ANH. I also think he has made a lot of this stuff up as he has gone along. But it would have been interesting to see, if he had stopped after ANH, and see how people would talk just about ANH, like talking about just "The Wizard of Oz"

    5.
     
  6. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 8, 2004
    :::But it would have been interesting to see, if he had stopped after ANH, and see how people would talk just about ANH, like talking about just "The Wizard of Oz"

    Yes, it would be *interesting* (fortunately, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN), but it would not as *enjoyable* as watching the subsequent Sequel episodes, and the long awaited Prequels.
     
  7. Gregatron

    Gregatron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    As I've said, I'm playing devil's advocate here. It's all very wishy-washy with me. I can see it both ways. Some days, I love the SAGA and how it's all be put together, and other days, I hate how the other films have mutated and gutted the elegant simplciity of the original, changed the meanings and characterizations of almost *everthing and everyone* in the film, and generally turned Star Wars into a franchise with a more (to paraphrase Spinal Tap manager Ian Faith)...selective appeal (in that civilians could become easily confused by the now-dense mythology).
     
  8. Ker-Soth

    Ker-Soth Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2004
    First of all, I have to agree that the midichlorian/strength in the Force theory that was introduced in the sequels and prequels hurts me too. I love the "train whoever wants to be trained" feeling of STAR WARS.

    But, audiences of the time, and audiences now btw, are aching for a contemporary mythology. It is something we have been missing for a long time. GL gave us a version, MARVEL and DC comics gave us others, the Matrix, LOTR (the books, not the movies), Dune (the books again), all of these ideas and stories give us something to dream about.

    Back in 77 WE made SW succesful, WE demmanded more, WE wanted Vader to be so important. We loved STAR WARS and we wanted it to become more concrete and realistic, to have more depth. And we got our wish. I wanted to see more Jedi, learn Vader's past, Yoda in action, Ben as a joung knight. We all did.

    Yeah, sometimes I miss the simplicity of STAR WARS too, but I have been compensated a thousandfold. Haven't we all?
     
  9. xah44

    xah44 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005
    The original post is wrong in three different ways.

    First, it is adolescent. It is adolescent to wish to restore what has been lost forever. The Flash Gordon days are long gone. Star Wars is now a saga. Like all sagas, this saga is complex.

    Second, it ignores how the saga came together. Originally, Lucas wanted to do three movies. That got compressed into one movie. Wookies were made technologically advanced and Chewbacca became the co-pilot of the Millennium Falcon. The Clone Wars and the Galactic Rebellion were separated. And so on. Then, Lucas decided to make one movie into three, and so the Ewoks were born. The Lucas decided to add the backstory of the Clone War. And so we follow Anakin Skywalker's adventures.

    Historically, authors compose epics and sagas without constant feedback, and they record their work on paper in the form of written stories, or in the memory as an orally told story.

    A motion picture saga or epic differs significantly from any other kind of saga or epic. Due to technological constraints, a motion picture requires many different people to contribute. Thus, Lucas inevitably received constant feedback while he composed his epic. Furthermore, a motion picture epic is fundamentally different from an oral or written epic. Lucas's Star Wars is the first and best motion picture saga. We should commend Lucas for his pioneering artistc craftsmanship.

    Therefore, Lucas's many "retcons" do not deserve criticism unless they don't make sense within the story.

    Third, you get several details wrong.

    The most electric of your charges is that regarding Luke and Leia. In fact, in Star Wars 4, it should already be clear that Han and Leia have eyes for each other. In the detention level tunnel, Han says he's either going to kill her or he's beginning to like her. When Luke and Han return after the Battle of Yavin, Leia embraces Luke warmly, but says nothing. When she embraces Han, she says "Hey, I knew there was more to you than money."

    Furthermore, the Imperial authorities on the Death Star take special note of Leia's "considerable" resistance to the mind-probe. Indeed, subsequent to enduring the torture of the mind-probe, Leia appears remarkably undisturbed. She is not haggard or staring into the distance. She storms into the hall with fire in her eyes and confronts Tarkin with great vigor. Leia's "considerable" will power should immediately mark her as a potential Force user, and therefore one should place her in the same category as Luke. Many things run in families, and so Force-awareness might as well run in families, too.

    Finally, viewers naturally do not see a family resemblance in Luke and Leia, and assume they are not related, but we must remember this is the movies and in the movies family members don't necessarily look alike.

    The controversy over the midichlorians is identical to the nature/nurture debate currently raging in society today. In the saga, the actual effect of midichlorians on Force users remains questionable. If you don't want to think about the nature/nurture debate, just assume that the Jedi measurement of midichlorians in Force users is based on pseudo-science and is most clearly a sign of the corruption and decadence of the Jedi. Otherwise, the midichlorian issue has the utility of promoting social discussion on the nature/nurture debate. In this way, the Star Wars saga fulfills one of the important criteria for identifying great works of art: promoting understanding of mankind.

    Mos Eisley may have been a bustling spaceport in the PT, but by the time of the OT, due to the wars, becomes a backwater.

    Greedo shooting first is dumb, but it doesn't ruin the whole saga.

    The Falcon was never the "piece of junk" Luke thought it was. It would make .5 past light speed, and had it where it counted most as evidenced, for example, in the Battle of Yavin. Luke thought himself a connoisseur of starships, but he was actually an ignorant farmboy.

    Obi-Wan calls Vader "Darth" because Obi-Wan is bitter, and in doing so Obi-Wan shows his
     
  10. darth-amedda

    darth-amedda Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Mos Eisley may have been a bustling spaceport in the PT, but by the time of the OT, due to the wars, becomes a backwater.

    Sorry, but there is no Mos Eisley in PT (so how can anyone say anything specific about it?). Mos Espa is another city.
     
  11. Gregatron

    Gregatron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    The original post is wrong in three different ways.

    First, it is adolescent. It is adolescent to wish to restore what has been lost forever. The Flash Gordon days are long gone. Star Wars is now a saga. Like all sagas, this saga is complex.
    *************************
    That's not what I said. I just don't want us to forget the past. It's childish to think to ingore/forget history and pretend everthing was planned.
    ***************************

    Second, it ignores how the saga came together. Originally, Lucas wanted to do three movies. That got compressed into one movie. Wookies were made technologically advanced and Chewbacca became the co-pilot of the Millennium Falcon. The Clone Wars and the Galactic Rebellion were separated. And so on. Then, Lucas decided to make one movie into three, and so the Ewoks were born. The Lucas decided to add the backstory of the Clone War. And so we follow Anakin Skywalker's adventures.
    *********************
    But we don't know how much was in his head at the time the first film was made.
    *********************

    Therefore, Lucas's many "retcons" do not deserve criticism unless they don't make sense within the story.
    ************
    Several retcons are very, very shaky.
    *********************

    Third, you get several details wrong.

    The most electric of your charges is that regarding Luke and Leia. In fact, in Star Wars 4, it should already be clear that Han and Leia have eyes for each other. In the detention level tunnel, Han says he's either going to kill her or he's beginning to like her. When Luke and Han return after the Battle of Yavin, Leia embraces Luke warmly, but says nothing. When she embraces Han, she says "Hey, I knew there was more to you than money."
    **********************
    The topic of debate in those days was who she'd end up with. If you think Lucas knew for sure at that point, you're gravely mistaken.
    ***************

    Furthermore, the Imperial authorities on the Death Star take special note of Leia's "considerable" resistance to the mind-probe. Indeed, subsequent to enduring the torture of the mind-probe, Leia appears remarkably undisturbed. She is not haggard or staring into the distance. She storms into the hall with fire in her eyes and confronts Tarkin with great vigor. Leia's "considerable" will power should immediately mark her as a potential Force user, and therefore one should place her in the same category as Luke. Many things run in families, and so Force-awareness might as well run in families, too.
    **********************
    That's a nice example of what I'm talking about: fans who read "meanings" into the first film in order to "prove" that it was all planned all along. Leia resisting tortutre proves Lucas wanted her to be a Force-user? I don't think so.
    **********************


    Mos Eisley may have been a bustling spaceport in the PT, but by the time of the OT, due to the wars, becomes a backwater.
    **************
    Mos Espa was in the PT, not Mos Eisley.
    *************

    Vader was revealed as a cyborg in SW5 (ESB) when his staff officer walked in on him with his helmet off, while Vader was resting in his hyperbaric chamber. We knew then that he could not take the suit off, and therefore was a cyborg.
    ****************

    Yes, Vader was revealed to be human--and presmably a cyborg--in ESB (when the retcons really began), *not* the first film.
    *********************

    To sum it up, your criticism is baseless for its adolesence, its not coming to grips with the saga as a motion picture epic, and for some textual inaccuracies.
    *********************
    What criticism? I'm just reminding everyone of the past, what's been lost/altered, and *celebrating* that lost vision. Adolescent? I think not.

     
  12. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Sorry, but there is no Mos Eisley in PT (so how can anyone say anything specific about it?). Mos Espa is another city.

    I think Greg is referring to the fact that Mos Eisley was upgraded in the SE.



    1997 was a great year
    /LM
     
  13. Buck_Skywalker

    Buck_Skywalker Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Original Post was right on.

    Very well thought out opinions. No fan boy statements. No bashing. Just well executed argument regarding actual perceptions. I am surprised you weren't around in '77 to have these types of thoughts.

    Nothing adolescent about your post.

    Congratulations
     
  14. Obladi_Oblada

    Obladi_Oblada Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2005
    "Leia resisting tortutre proves Lucas wanted her to be a Force-user? I don't think so."

    I absolutely agree that Leia was never intended to be Luke's sister until ROTJ. But actually there are some earlier drafts where she does have Jedi-like powers. Mark Hamill's audition line was something about how the Princess would never give in to the Empire's interrogations because she knows the art of mind control. It's on the DVD, and it's pretty funny how Hamill can shoot out the line so easily after all these years.

    In response to the original post, I agree with most points but I kind of have the opposite mindset. I love the Saga for what it's become, but sometimes I like to think about the original as its own thing apart from the others. And you're spot on about the Jedi Robes thing. I've always wondered about that. I was hoping to see the Jedi of the prequel era wearing really cool suits of armor and looking more like knights.
     
  15. NZPoe

    NZPoe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2001
    Where is a first-time viewer to start? With Episode I? But Episode IV is the one that *really* sets up how the Galaxy works, the one that subtlely shows us through context what a droid, what a Jedi is, and what a lightsaber is.

    Considering the number of young children around today who've been introduced to the saga via Episode I (and some older fans - i personally know of 3) the statement doesn't neccesarily have unilateral validity.

    You're also forgetting that Lucas's intentions for SW is to be viewed as a 12-hour, 6-act film. This kind of structure naturally lends to the thought that establishing information and vital clues don't arrive till halfway into the film.

    Think about it - do you need to know what lightsabers or droids are until you get the the classic trilogy? Look at how the Dark Side is painted in the PT - there lack of screen presence is indicative of how surprising their takeover will be in Episode III (reading the script verifies this). Once their power and cunning is established only THEN is the real danger of the darkside added to the Star Wars tension curve - the corrupted father, the boy following in his footsteps full of anger, the fact that the twins are the last hope left for the galaxy, the true nature of both the light and the darkside, the fact that the lightsaber goes from being a mere weapon to a powerful symbol of inheritence...you need the prequel trilogy to set all these up but the nitty-gritty of the galaxy doesn't come into play until the second half.

    Look at the first half of Titanic - the building of the romance and relationships - compared to the second half - the action and the sinking and the payoffs for all the setups.

    Just my 2cents.
     
  16. Obladi_Oblada

    Obladi_Oblada Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2005
    "Considering the number of young children around today who've been introduced to the saga via Episode I (and some older fans - i personally know of 3) the statement doesn't neccesarily have unilateral validity."

    They may have managed to follow the movie, but from a storytelling standpoint the topic creator is right. Episode IV is written to introduce concepts that Episode I assumes the audience is already familiar with.
     
  17. NZPoe

    NZPoe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2001
    Episode IV is written to introduce concepts

    Agreed.

    that Episode I assumes the audience is already familiar with.

    Disagreed because an affirmative or a negative on this point cannot be qualitatively proven. You can only take the creator's word for this and of course any other proof that may agree with that - that is the fact that there are many people now who have started watching Star Wars from Episode I and have had no difficulty following the plot thus far (some of whom are staying spoiler-free for Episode III).

    It is only a matter of retrospective that makes you say that Episode I deals with subjects that the audience is familiar with. "Anakin Skywalker...meet Obi Wan Kenobi" will sound to a SW veteran like a deliberate fan-service. But to someone who has not seen the series it is a perfunctory introduction that draws on large consequences in the future.

    Ditto for "Why do I have the feeling you'll be the death of me." For the veteran its a joke, but the first time my ex-girlfriend saw it she reckoned it was a rather obvious form of foreshadowing. She was rather surprised that Obi-Wan didn't die at the end of Attack of the Clones because she thought the line was foreshadowing his demise due to Anakin's misbehavior throughout the movie.

    I have a 10 year old nephew who has only seen Episodes I and II and has a very good comprehension of The Force and its nature and understands that "The Dark Side" is what the bad guys use and the "Light Side" is what the good guys use.

    It's all depends on your point of view and a SW veteran's perspective is no more cemented or qualitative than someone who has never seen the series.
     
  18. Gregatron

    Gregatron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Considering the number of young children around today who've been introduced to the saga via Episode I (and some older fans - i personally know of 3) the statement doesn't neccesarily have unilateral validity.

    You're also forgetting that Lucas's intentions for SW is to be viewed as a 12-hour, 6-act film. This kind of structure naturally lends to the thought that establishing information and vital clues don't arrive till halfway into the film.

    Think about it - do you need to know what lightsabers or droids are until you get the the classic trilogy? Look at how the Dark Side is painted in the PT - there lack of screen presence is indicative of how surprising their takeover will be in Episode III (reading the script verifies this). Once their power and cunning is established only THEN is the real danger of the darkside added to the Star Wars tension curve - the corrupted father, the boy following in his footsteps full of anger, the fact that the twins are the last hope left for the galaxy, the true nature of both the light and the darkside, the fact that the lightsaber goes from being a mere weapon to a powerful symbol of inheritence...you need the prequel trilogy to set all these up but the nitty-gritty of the galaxy doesn't come into play until the second half.

    Look at the first half of Titanic - the building of the romance and relationships - compared to the second half - the action and the sinking and the payoffs for all the setups.

    Just my 2cents.
    *****************************

    In that case, the first film wastes everyone's time by dwelling on and explaining things we already know about from Episodes I-III. Y'see, the first film just doesn't quite fit into the SAGA concept. It still works better as a stand-alone entry. now it's just "IV of VI". It's diminished somewhat.

    And Lucas didn't intend the whole "12-hour movie in 6 parts" bit until many years after the first film was made. Retcons!

    As I've said, it works both ways (and Lucas has been quite clever in twisting all the old meanings of the old films with the new ones), but we can't forget how it used to be (some might say it used to be better).
     
  19. OzYank

    OzYank Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2005
    I would like to see the truly original "Star Wars" movie.

    The non-Special Edition, the grainy looking 1977 theatrical release with the following details...

    * Just STAR WARS logo and "It's a dark time..." crawl. No "Episode IV", No "A NEW HOPE"

    * Anchorhead scenes (Luke sees space battle with his binoculars, tells his hick friends about it, they don't believe him. Biggs tells Luke that the's going to join the Rebel Alliance, and says goodbye)

    * The original, dull sun set scenes/outdoor lighting

    * The original Mos Eisely, no funny robots, gigantic monsters/dragons

    * Only one dragon creature, that doesn't move, during the "look sir, droids" scene, all other troopers are on foot

    * The original Cantina scene (the one that shows Han with a woman, and not as many monsters/aliens and different music)

    * Han shoots first with the blocky white graphic Greedo translation on the actual movie footage (stupid DVD player doing its own version, lol)

    * The original Jabba scene, where Jabba was not a slug, but a fat man in a fur suit. No translation is needed when he talks to Han and doesn't growl when Han walks behind him (no tail). Boba Who? Get him out of there.

    * No computer duplicaton of stormtroopers on the Death Star

    * Don't show us bright red planet Yavin

    * All lightsabers are white, like in the Xmas '76 trailer

    * The simple "spicy meatball" explosion of the Death Star. No ring of fire.

    Yayyyy!
     
  20. Ogmios22188

    Ogmios22188 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Sounds...great.
     
  21. youngjedi88

    youngjedi88 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 16, 2005
    What gregatron said makes alot of sense. Obviously GL hadn't thought of everything, and no, LEIA WAS NEVER LUKE'S SISTER until ROTJ...and many things were added upon, some answering questions and some shocking us, some just lackluster cop outs to what at one time was a mystery. I wonder how different it would have been if the saga was made according to what was apparent in the backstory already of IV, and not Vader being father skywalker. Han was going to be an alien, vader's mask was created only to get around space travel, etc. there were no allusions, but you still get the feeling that he kind of had a bigger story he wanted to tell, but only made that chapter, and things became bigger and better at the same time as it lost the original's magic. I have noticed that many small details and things that lucas either could only make because of the constraints have backstories, obvious cameoes in subsequent prequels etc. and unused ideas from earlier drafts like mace windu and (a certain spoiler planet from ROTS) were used later on, while big, memorable themes questions and characters were either explained stupidly or thrown away/altered in the PT. Lines and scenes that were just the evolution to Lucas' ever changing background synopsis were suddenly picked apart and given backstory that was "always planned". still, I LOVE the saga as a whole, and think of it as a story, not just an inconsistant continuation of THE STAR WARS. Was episode 1 silly and too effects-heavy? yes. were midichlorians a stupid way to make the force explained in a scientific way? totally. jedi, although part of the OT, is on the lower side of my fav. rankings. but when i was a kid, it was my favorete. the sail barge fight, luke's final confrontation with vader, the big action scenes, etc. And I've gotten advance tickets to ROTS, eagerly awaiting thursday (although I know the movie in and out already, unfortunately) because its Star Wars. I look at them as a whole story, a partially planned and partially made up continuation to the original. I also noticed while watching IV today that it does have alot of good humor and chemestry, seemingly putting it on a different world than things like jar jar's potty humor, even though no one knew what it was all about. It was an isolated amazing story of good vs. evil. it's my second favorete next to ESB.
    Anyways, I think xah 44 is interested in the details gregatron was being vauge about, and probably knows more technically, but it wasn't adolesent and he's being a little harsh because gregatron is leaning towards one feeling. But would you rather have one isolated classic or six technically awe inspiring and fun, sometimes excellent and sometimes lame movies as part of an interesting whole story we all love? I know you like the others too, just philosiphising.
    Sorry this was SO LONG but it's my first post EVER. I love theforce.net and check out the threads sometimes. I know im kinda hypocritical but not really cause I know i love them all in the long run. And sorry I'm really detailed and stuff, but I'm really interested in the topic. what do you guys think?
     
  22. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    GREAT original post! Its nice to see that there are others out there who are at least aware of the history of star wars.

    If you want to know about how the Sequel Trilogy fits into it all i made a fairly comprehensive essay on it here:

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=19702543&replies=11

    Anyway, i think the most important event that occured which changed the whole scope of star wars from Flash Gordon serial-style to Dune epic-style was the changing of Darth Vader to Luke's father, following the death of ESB screenwriter Leigh Brackett. Brackett was a reknowned pulp sci-fi writer whose work probably was an influence on GL; her first draft of ESB was more along the lines of ANH, the way George's original sequel to ANH, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, was, before he jetisoned it to Alan Dean Foster as a novel.

    When Brackett died, Lucas started over from scratch, and this is when he decided to make Father Skywalker into Darth Vader. The fact that Father Skywalker was originally a seperate person is further enforced by the first draft of ESB, where the spirit of Luke's dead father appears to him! Evidently, when Lucas changed the father to Vader, he made Obi Wan into the father figure.

    It also doesn't help that in all of GL's fabled notebooks on prequel histories and such, there isn't a single reference to Vader being part of the skywalker clan. Nor is there any remote similarities in any of the original drafts of ANH; all he ever was was a villanous henchman, and this is consistant in evey incantation of star wars up until ESB. The Marvel comics talk of Father Skywalker as a seperate person, and in the ANH novelisation (which bears Lucas' name as author but in reality was ghost-written by Alan Dean Foster) it explicitly states that Obi Wan was telling the truth when he tells Luke of his father's past. In fact, there isn't any evidence at all that Vader was a Skywalker until the 80's--after the big "secret" was revealed in ESB! In fact, his role was downplayed in every draft of ANH--it was the public that made him a phenomenon.

    Lucas' history on Father Skywalker, Vader and Obi Wan was exactly as it was put in the film: Father Skywalker was a jedi; Obi Wan was a jedi; Father Skywalker and Obi Wan were friends and faught in the clone wars; Obi Wan also had a student by the name of Darth Vader; Darth Vader turned evil and joined the Empire; Darth Vader hunted down and killed all of the jedi, including Father Skywalker.

    That is it. Other notes Lucas had pertained to Palpatine, who was a power-hungry politician-turned-dictator and not an evil sorceror; he may have also had some ideas on the clone wars and such, but more or less, Lucas' "detailed history" was just expanded notes on what we already were told in the first film (the Obi vs Vader duel on the volcano seems to be a fairly old idea--only originally he wasn't battling Anakin, he was AVENGING Anakin by battling his murderer, Vader!).

    In fact, here is what Lucas said in

    Rolling Stone Magazine, August 25, 1977:

    Q. What's the story for the prequels?

    Lucas: It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader have a confrontation, just like they have in STAR WARS, and Ben almost kills Vader. As a matter of fact, he falls into a volcanic pit and gets fried and is one destroyed being. That's why has has to wear the suit with a mask. It's like a walking iron lung. His face is all horrible inside. I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said no, no, it would destroy the mystique of the whole thing."

    The development of Father Skywalker into Vader is based more on convenience. Basically, after Star Wars was a hit and he decided to take the film in more of an epic direction with ESB, he had to flesh out the character histories in much more detail than the vague notes he already had, which he had already given the audience. Look
     
  23. JSnyder

    JSnyder Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2005
    >>covers it up at every opportunity<<
    Where do you think Obi got his flair for his "certain points of view" from?

    Psychologists would call it compulsive lying, but this is the GGFA so it gets a different label.
     
  24. BigDaddy_Darth

    BigDaddy_Darth Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2005
    I believe you can pick at GL all you want. The fact of the matter is he says in "Empire of Dreams" that the OT was all one movie when he originally wrote it in the mid 70's. As someone said it was not Episode I or IV at the time it was released b/c GL wasn't sure if he would get to finish it. By the time he came up with Anakin=Vader for ESB he had the ideas for the PT, hence Episode IV.

    I don't understand all the Bally hoo about how all explanations are wasted in ANH. How off is that. It had to be there, b/c at the time it was a new Story to everyone, even if it was not the beginning. And as for when we watch Episode I and we already know all this stuff about it as opposed to those who will see this movie before the OT, well, all that was explained by OB1 in ANH, we get to see on the screen in Episode I and they are all pretty self explanatory, even when trying to look at them as if we knew nothing of the OT and the GFFA.

    I for one don't understand how anyone can criticize GL for all of the Retcons or whatever the **** you want to call them. As if he was supposed to come up with all thye concepts for a 15 hr (not 12, each movie is about 2 1/2 hours long) Saga at once, especially if he only thought he would be able to make the first third of a what was ultimately a rough (living) draft. I for one am in aww of how brilliant he fits together the story for 6 movies. What other movie franchise that has that many films can say the story is that complex and still fits together so beautifully, what Friday the 13th, or maybe Nightmare on Elm Street, or maybe Halloween. Does anyone see a patern here, there are not may movies that there are six of. Even the Star Trek series of movies does not have the continuity of Star Wars.

    THE BOTTOM LINE IS GL'S SAGA IS THAT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A "LIVING" STORY WHICH HE HAS SHAPED OVER TIME AND HAS ADDED TO AS WELL. IF SOMEONE HAS A HARD TIME GETTING OVER THE FACT THAT SOME POINTS OR VIEWS OF THE ORIGINAL SW (ANH)HAVE BEEN CHANGED B/C GL HAS EXPANDED ON THEM, NOT NECESSARILY CHANGED THEIR MEANINGS (WHILE SAYING THEY "LOVE" THE WHOLE SAGA AT THE SAME TIME SO THEY DON'T GET BLASTED LIKE THIS), THEN THEY CAN CRY ABOUT IT UNTIL GL IS LONG GONE. HE HAS CAPTUREDE ALL OF OUR IMAGINATIONS AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE ALL HERE POSTING THESE THREADS, PERIOD!
     
  25. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I don't understand what the problem is. It has nothing to do with George Lucas, but with the individual viewers perceptions. You can always choose to ignore every movie but "A New Hope" if you want. Did it bother you that I called it "A New Hope"? I ignore "Superman 3-4". I pretend they never existed. You can do the same. It's called revisionist history and most artists do it. Tolkien redid "The Hobbit" to include "Lord of the Rings". Deal with it.
     
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