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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The *original* film and the "Saga"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Gregatron, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. MilkManX

    MilkManX Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 13, 2005

    But what works for me is that Leia can sense Luke when he calls to her at the end of Empire. I think at that point it was decided that Leia would be his twin.
     
  2. Virgilius

    Virgilius Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Oct 7, 2004
    Gregatron, I found your post very interesting. Thanks for writing it.

    The Star Wars saga would have been very different if Vader weren't Luke's father or if Leia hadn't been his sister. It's fun to ponder what ifs, though. Personally, I think the saga is excellent. ROTS will make it complete.
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJeff

    GrandAdmiralJeff Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 24, 2005
    The story of star wars just evolved as it got more and more popular fans wanted more an more info on there favorite characters, so GL decided to make his story more complex. Sure if you lok at the original film by itself it would seem a bit different then the others if you REALLY look and nit pick for the inconsistancies. But arent we all happier that the story evolved and he made the story more complexe? If not well we wouldnt be here.
     
  4. youngjedi88

    youngjedi88 Jedi Youngling

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    May 16, 2005
    ya i'm 17 and have loved star wars since my uncle first showed it to me when i was about 6 after i played the super star wars games on SNES...anyways, yea i agree that it is kinda dumb to take shots at him for obviously changing certain things, i'm just saying what i think are the pros and cons or whatever of what he ended up with
     
  5. KÃ¥l

    KÃ¥l Jedi Youngling

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    May 31, 2000
    Obviously, we can never know exactly when Lucas came up with certain ideas, and he probably can't remember for sure anyway!

    What's interesting is that the story structure of ANH stayed pretty much the same throughout the various drafts, yet the character roles and relationships changed a great deal. At one point, Leia was indeed Luke's sister, but had a small role and lived on Tatooine.

    As Lucas wrote the various drafts, much of the historical background was taken out in order to streamline the story. The hero's father was an active participant in many drafts, but in the final film, Luke believes his father is dead. There was also a cyborg character (Montross). These elements eventually fused with the black-robed evil knight/henchman that Vader was depicted as on screen in ANH.

    Over the years, Lucas has contradicted himself on some things, but remained consistant on others. Yes, he did say he had outlined 9 episodes more than once (years ago, the OT was often referred to in official sources as the "middle trilogy"). He also said the PT would be Machivellian with political scheming (it is!).

    When he put Episode V on the Empire opening crawl, and Episode IV on the re-release of the first movie, he was surely promising to tell those earlier tales at a later date, but in recent interviews he said he never really decided to make Episodes I-III until the 90s (despite many interviews between 1983 and 1993 asserting he would make them "someday"). Was this on-screen labelling purely a bit of whimsy, or was Lucas so bowled over by the success of SW, he thought he would be making them forever (recently, he said he only wanted to make three, but in at least one 80s interview, he mentioned as many as 12 chapters).

    The earlier drafts of ANH don't seem to indicate at all that Vader is Luke's father. Lucas says he always intended it this way, but I have my doubts. Clearly, it was a masterstroke that ultimately made the saga more profound that a straightforward Flash Gordon-style serial. Lucas could have followed the first film with more "further adventures" like those told in the old Marvel series, but he opted to do something much more interesting, for which we should be thankful.

     
  6. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2004

    To the author of this thread: "Civilians"?!
     
  7. The_Little_Red_Jedi

    The_Little_Red_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 3, 2004
    I agree with you on several points, and understand the idea that you're just playing devil's advocate here.

    On the other hand, it's all a moot point anyway. No one is going to see Star Wars as "Star Wars" anymore, it will forever be branded into the public conscience as "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope".

    But anyway, good read, thanks.
     
  8. Le1gh

    Le1gh Jedi Youngling

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    May 23, 2005
    I really love this thread and the post that started it off is some awesome food for thought.

    I think the development of the first movie into a full-blown sagas was both a blessing and a curse, for some people anyways. A blessing, because without that, we wouldn't have ESB, which is by far the best movie of the series and just such an incredible expansion of the potential story that lay within ANH. But, on the flip side, you have ROTJ, which i do love, but is definately NOT without its flaws. While the ending is indeed satisfying, it seems that, at some point, Lucas either got involved with the wrong director, or just lost the fire he had on Empire and instead opted for a nice, neat ending.

    And then there's the PT, which simply does NOT deliver AT ALL (with the exception of ROTS which is pretty damn great). I guess what i'm getting at is that Empire being as amazing as it was (and still is), expectations of the complete "saga" were raised VERY high. So high that the chances of that level of goodness running throughout all the subsequent movies was shaky at best and, as Jedi goes to prove, it ran out pretty damn quick. For me, anyways. As I see it, ESB and ANH are the only 2 of the series that are totally amazing. But i do find enjoyment in all the others (except Phantom Menace) because i love the first 2 so much.

    Sorry this is so long. Again, this thread is very cool. With the alarming amount of posts on this board that champion the PT as being superior to the OT, it's nice to hear some other opinions.
     
  9. Kakkaraun

    Kakkaraun Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 19, 2005
    Leia is Luke's sister because GL realized he probably wouldn't have the opportunity to make 7-9, in which the actually sister would be introduced. He had to smash that whole part down into one film.

    That said, he always planned it to be several episodes, he made ep IV "standalone" because as he was making it he had no idea if he'd ever be able to make the rest of the series.
     
  10. DarthSkeptical

    DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 19, 2001
    I understand the original poster's ambiguity. Certainly the nature of the "saga" has evolved over time, and in some ways veered from what Lucas at different points may have indicated it was to be. Arguably the strongest evidence we have for this is the resignation of Gary Kurtz as producer when GL unveiled his story ideas for Episode VI.

    This is not the same as saying, however, that GL had no plan and was "winging it" as he went along.

    Investigation into the earliest scribblings of GL back in 1973 will reveal documents such as The Journal of the Whills, a one-page outline of the backstory so influential that the first movie was, at least through the cast audition process, subtitled "from the Journal of the Whills". Though this document is necessarily vague because of its brevity, it's astounding how closely it presages the basic plot of the entire saga (and especially the prequels). This, along with other supporting documents (such as the original "Episode IV" treatment and character background notes do fairly clearly give the impression that the basics of the story, and especially the "family orientation" of the principle cast were always intended. At various points in the early drafts, the siblings were both male, or Anakin was "good" throughout, or what have you--but it is not, to my mind, a "lie" to say that the whole thing was always intended to be about the Skywalker (or Starkiller) family and how their personal decisions impacted the very destiny of the galaxy as controlled by (someone like) the Emperor.

    I myself think there's more than enough in what's been published about the earliest days of the saga to absolve Lucas from the "crime" of "making it up as he went along". There's also enough evidence for you to say, like Gary Kurtz, that the changes GL made along the way were fundamentally greater than the original idea (whatever that might have been, in deatail) should have been asked to bear.

    For myself, I think it's something close to breathtaking how unified the whole saga is now that it's finished. I don't care how we got here, other than as a purely intellectual exercise, because ROTS gave me more than enough to believe that however nebulous GL overarching structure was at various points in time, it's certainly gelled now into something I can really appreciate--no, love--in more ways than I can easily count.

    As for what you do with your beliefs about how life came to be in that galaxy far, far away--well, only you can choose your destiny.
     
  11. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    Very well written and researched original post- great thread!

    The only detail that I would question is this one;

    >>>>And need we say any more about the abominable change to Han Solo's character with the whole "Greedo shooting" thing (Greedo never shot "first". He never shot AT ALL!!!!)????

    I've heard (only on the internet, so take it with a pinch of salt) that there were attempts to film Greedo shooting, but it didn't work out. There were a lot of problems with the Mos Eisley cantina shot, which is why none of the aliens you see close ups of appear anywhere in the longer shots.

    Anyway, it sounds to me like two shots in the original- although you see nothing but smoke, and don't know what's happened until the smoke clears.

    Whatever the story, it should have been left the way it was, instead of completely transforming the character arc of Han Solo.



    >>>>Episode IV is written to introduce concepts that Episode I assumes the audience is already familiar with.

    Lucas has said that Kurosawa was a great influence on Star Wars. This is most clearly visible in the cinematic style of ANH, but something that's often overlooked is the nature of the films- because his films were Japanese, about Japanese culture, they assume that the audience is aware of and understands the society, the rituals and so on. What Lucas noticed was that, coming at them from a western point of view, a strange and exotic world is depicted without explanation- but you don't need the explanations because you can piece what you need to understand together for yourself. Hence no explanation of how a lightsaber works, what a hyperdrive is and so on.

    And be honest- does not being told that "the Force is an energy field generated by all living things" really change anything about the way you see the Jedi's "magical powers" in the PT? Does that line actually explain anything relevant to the story that a first time viewer needs to know?


    >>>>Second, it ignores how the saga came together. Originally, Lucas wanted to do three movies. That got compressed into one movie.

    I think this is confusing a few different stories. For starters, Lucas definitely only set out to make a single film. He's on record as saying so several times. However, the story he wrote was a sprawling mess, and would never have fit into a single film.

    It seems to be at this stage that he discovered the works of Joseph Campbell, which helped him to condense his ideas into a more focussed, structured storyline which he could then turn into a film.

    When the film was successful and the possibility of making more came up, some of the discarded concepts were brought back, and the structure for a nine film saga was put together. This appears to have been the case well into production of ESB- quite possibly until after it was finished. For example, in the "Making of ESB" book, there is reference to the full scale Millenium Falcon model that was built with a view to using it in the sequels- as it turned out, it didn't appear in ROTJ. (It was filmed, but the scene was cut.) Also there is the issue of "the other", which according to Kurtz was not supposed to refer to Leia, but to "a character who survives Star Wars III.")

    Subsequently, the planned story arc for the remaining four films ended up being compressed into a single film. As a result, ROTJ is quite disjointed, and splits neatly into two seperate stories- resolving what's left over from ESB (rescuing Han from Jabba), then leaps into tying up the saga with the battle over Endor. Very little that happens on Tatooine has any relevance to what happens after they leave.)


    >>>>Wookies were made technologically advanced and Chewbacca became the co-pilot of the Millennium Falcon. The Clone Wars and the Galactic Rebellion were separated. And so on. Then, Lucas decided to make one movie into three, and so the Ewoks were born. The Lucas decided to add the backstory of the Clone War. And so we follow Anakin Skywalker's adventures.

    In the original drafts for Sta
     
  12. Geezasfm

    Geezasfm Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 25, 2005
    I haven't read this whole topic, so I'm sorry if I'm reinventing the wheel here.

    The impression I got from the original Star Wars was that Han and Leia were hot for each other. Luke could be seen as the shy, idealistic kid who thinks he's as tough and cool as Han, but at the end of the day Han's the one who gets the chicks, not Luke. None of this was said explicitly, but it was all very apparant, even obvious, to my 12 year old brain at the time (and still is when I revisit the movie these days.)

    Because of this, I've never seen Luke and Leia's sibling-ness as being that odd. Luke liked this girl, she wasn't digging him back, and before anything ever came of it, he finds out she's his brother. Now, at the time, Lucas added mystery to the equation by having Leia kiss Luke in the hangar before they take off. But a good-luck kiss from a princess who's hot and flirtatous (as already shown earlier in the movie) doesn't exactly mean she's in love with you.

     
  13. ZebadiahKenobi

    ZebadiahKenobi Jedi Youngling

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    May 26, 2005
    I think Gregatron makes a great point about ANH vs. the saga.

    There are two stories. Episode IV and then episodes I - IV. When my son is old enough to understand the movies, that is the order I will recommend he watch them... ANH and then the six part saga.

    Now to jump off the ledge. Since the PT has been finished, there is a part of me that thinks I, II, III, V and VI actually make more sense without ANH.

    1) OB1 in ANH now seems to have alzheimer's disease.

    2) The death star being built in no time from ANH to ROTJ makes no sense when we can see it took Luke's pre-force lifetime to build the first one.

    3) The spiritual energy of the force in ANH vs. the physical presence of midochlorians. Force one is not quite the same as Force two.

    4) ANH is simply about good underdogs defeating controlling evil powers. Luke got into the whole thing by accident, not because of some unbelievably unlikely coincidence of him being related to Vader.
    The saga, on the other hand, is about a powerful person's fall to the dark side, his family relationships, his attempts to get his child to join the family business, and his final redemption. Two different stories.

    5) All of Gregatron's original post.


    So what do we lose if we watch the saga without ANH in the middle?

    1) OB1 connecting with Luke. Given the Alzheimer's in reference to the greater saga, I almost prefer him to be introduced as a disconnected spirit guide in ESB.

    2) Destruction of Alderaan. I realize that this is key to establishing the lengths the Empire is willing to go in order to retain control and the reason why it is so important for the rebellion to destroy the Death Star. So let's just say that you watch ANH first and keep it in the back of your mind. Alderaan should have been taken out in episode V anyway.

    3) Han / Luke. Truth is... this is re-established in ESB when Han saves Luke from the snow monster.

    4) Han / Leia - Love interest established in ESB. Prior relationship in ANH not critical.

    5) Luke / Leia - makes sense differently in ANH and without ANH. Their relationship in ANH, given the context of the saga is disturbing. It's still disturbing in ESB but Leia was just trying to piss off Han and didn't know what she was doing so I can let that slide.

    6) Luke / Vader - True it makes little sense for the Emperor and Vader to be discussing Luke in ESB if Luke had not blown up the first Death Star. Except for that feat of heroics and Vader noticing the Force is strong with him, he was nobody. On the other hand, isn't it more likely that the Emperor was made aware of a Skywalker from Tatooine working with the resistance on Hoth from an imperial spy than it is that the plans of the Death Star accidentally fell into the hands of Vader's only son because the Droid carrying them happened to be bought by Vader's half-brother?!?



     
  14. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    I think Lucas has planted all sorts of little details and characters into his movies, which he can use to build up bigger cross-cutting story lines. An example of this is Jabba, Bobba, the "Clone Wars", etc.

    The good thing about the original SW is that it throws the viewer in the middle of this entire Universe where he witnesses just one episode in a very long series, with lots of things hinted at but not explained.

    With the entire hexalogy, lots of things are explained, and the magic of being thrown in the middle of things has mostly disappeared. Yet, Lucas has managed again to insert other details (Whills, Plagueis, Sifo Dyas, etc.) hinting about other events that we know nothing about.

    So, SW could potentially expand forever, and the trick is to make it all stick together and not become completely ridiculous.

    I personally don't buy the idea that Lucas had this sequence of events all in his mind by the time he made the first movie, but I think that the rough idea of Ep III-VI were conceived before Empire appeared.
     
  15. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    A question that always bothered me is how Vader knew that the pilot who destroyed the Death Star was Luke Skywalker and his son in the first place.??
     
  16. Felucian_Fantasy

    Felucian_Fantasy Jedi Youngling

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    May 24, 2005
    There are some good ideas here.

    But I think it's shocking the extent to which most fans seem to forget that GL was hoping that, in the best of cases, Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope :p would just break even, or maybe even make a small profit, or a total box-office take of around $20 million. Certainly nobody expected it would become the biggest box -office hit of all time.

    Given the huge success of that 1977 movie, it kind of makes sense that GL would modify his plans somewhat. Had it been a modest success, the series could have been planned on a far more modest scale. It could have been kind of like the Star Trek series, with each new movie introducing a different villain, one or two different worlds, and relatively little character development between films. No overarching story arc, so to speak.

    But Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope happened to be a humongous hit, and the expectations of any possible sequel needlessly became much higher. Instead of a modest sequels with lots of sass and modest special effects, something grandiose was kind of expected, with more sophisticated special effects, and perhaps more profundity.

    There's also the fact that there's things you can write in a screenplay and sometimes you don't realize until you're deep into pre-production that certain things don't work so well cinematically. I think GL said that the main reason he had Obi-Wan killed in the DS duel was because, otherwise, there was very little for OWK to do in the last part of the movie except to sit around and watch what's happening.

    (If GL remade ANH today, he could have had OWK survive -- again -- and fly an X-wing in the battle of Yavin. It would have been touching to see an older OWK, in spite of his hating flying, joining Anakin's son in battle and perhaps even engage in a dogfight with Vader.)

    At any rate, everything that happened in the movies was dictated to some extent by practical/storytelling considerations, basically the limits that GL was up against, and his trying to be as faithful as possible to his original ideas. It can't possibly have been easy to have such an unified saga when it's taken just about half of GL'S life (30 years out of his 61 years) to bring to the screen.

    Who was the last filmmaker who spent HALF HIS LIFE bringing his vision to the screen?
     
  17. ZebadiahKenobi

    ZebadiahKenobi Jedi Youngling

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    May 26, 2005
    The emperor told Vader he "had no doubt" that whoever blew up the Death Star was also the son of Anakin Skywalker.

    When he told Vader to search his feelings Vader knew it to be true.

    I don't recall how Vader knows his first name is Luke. Called him "Young Skywalker" for a while.
     
  18. Serendipity

    Serendipity Guest

    This is a great thread! I've been wondering about all these things myself for a while.
    I guess we'll never know most of the things, but I DO think Lucas came up with the idea of Vader being Luke's Dad prior to ESB HIMSELF. Otherwise it would be quiet - well, untrue to build up a whole prehistory of epIV-VI based on an idea that wasn't even his, wouldn't it?
     
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