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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Padmé Amidala MEGAthread - Don't look at her that way. It makes her uncomfortable

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ganesh Ujwal, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Judging someone for something that he already is regreting is not moral, is hypocritical. Is Padme approving what Anakin is done? No. Is she understanding why he did it? Yes. There is a 30 pages thread for the Tusken massacre so I would not enter again on that topic, also I must say we discussed it personaly with Kuro in another thread and honestly I cannot see why repeating the same thing all over again would change something. Anyway, I don‘t understand why Padme‘s reaction is so misunderstood. What Anakin did is a mindless revenge. Was he right to be angry? Yes. Was he right to wipe out the village? No. Has he the change to come back from this? He already did it. So what Padme should do? Live him alone to fall in the darkness for good? Sure, it so moral and indignant. ;)
    The fascinanting thing about Padme is that she has always been the beacon in the dark. She finds the good in others and illuminates it. When Anakin lost her he lost himself . So why she loves him? I already discussed that, but in short, she loves Anakin and she would never follow Vader. (is not Obi Wan in similar, but not the same situation).
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I had no problem with Padme's behavior in the garage. I think Anakin should have turned himself in later, and maybe she could have encouraged him to do that, but ultimately the responsibility, and therefore the blame for not doing so, lies on him.
     
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  3. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Yes, I get it. You think that women are obligated to stick by their man at all costs, no matter how violent and abusive they are. Instead of trying to protect themselves, they should try to “fix” the violent monster through the power of love. And if them dying is the cost of that, so be it.

    Forgive me if I refuse to embrace this horrible misogynist attitude…and yes, this exact attitude has resulted in several woman dying. The abusive loser will “apologize” and convince the woman to stay with him, which often ends with the scumbag murdering her. The Sand People is just such a serious red flag that I am not willing to overlook this. She needed to get out of that situation. Staying with him after that isn’t moral; it’s delusional and suicidal. It’s not epic, it’s not romantic and it’s not tragic. It’s sick, depressing, disturbing, and morbid. I really think you’re incredibly naive to believe the things you write, and I genuinely hope that these posts are the result of naïveté rather than misogyny. You really just don’t understand how this love story has some truly horrifying real-life implications and that the ideas that are being promoted here are frankly offensive, dangerous and potentially deadly.

    And as a side note, if any woman reading this currently is in a relationship with a violent lunatic, get out of that situation. Now! Do yourself a favor. Don’t delude yourself that there’s “still good in him”. Don’t tell yourself that you can fix him if you just love him enough. Just leave. He’s not worth dying for.
    There is nothing poetic about this glorification of abuse. None. At all. This “love” story is frankly pretty painful and distressing, and if a director is gonna cause me to feel pain and distress, I wanna know that he’s not trying to romanticize that. And I’m not saying that every movie has to be all smiles and sunshine, that you’re only allowed to make movies about Mickey Mouse and the Dancing Bears.

    The most painful movie I’ve ever seen in my life is Tim Roth’s THE WAR ZONE. I’m willing to bet that nobody on here has even heard of that film, much less seen it. It’s an incredibly painful and distressing experience. If you don’t think you can handle it, stay far away. Frankly, it’s a film I never want to see again. But I consider it to be a masterpiece. It’s a powerful, disturbing film that leaves an impact. It treats its subject seriously, and makes no attempt to sanitize it or make it palatable. It’s a real punch to the gut, and I give Tim Roth all the credit in the world for having the courage to make such a brutal and uncompromising film. And Lara Belmont truly deserved an Oscar for one of the most haunting and moving performances I’ve ever seen in any movie. I honestly cannot describe just the raw power of that performance.

    Now I’m not saying that Lucas needed to be that brutal and uncompromising. Had he done that, it would’ve made the parental outcry over INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM look like a small picnic. All I needed was an acknowledgment that this is a horrible relationship. The animated BATMAN series never had a problem portraying the relationship between the Joker and Harley Quinn as abusive, and that was aimed at kids. If a Saturday morning cartoon can acknowledge reality, then Lucas has no excuse.
    To be fair, you can argue that she has a responsibility to turn him in, or at least tell Obi-Wan about it. I mean, she knows that a crime has been committed, and I’d argue that she’s really not doing anyone any favors by hiding that fact from the proper authorities.

    And I hold her solely responsible for deciding to stay with him and start a family with him after that incident. Her keeping his murderous secret is already a bit sketchy, but I’m willing to cut her a break on that one. Maybe she had enough lingering fondness for him that she wasn’t willing to inform on him. I’ll let her slide on that one…just barely, but I’ll let it slide. But staying with him and starting a family with him after that? I can’t let that one slide. He pretty clearly has some severe anger management issues (and that’s putting it as lightly as it can possibly be put), and he’s pretty clearly a ticking time bomb. The fact that she marries a man whom she knows has committed mass murder? Just…no. No.
     
  4. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Not at all. It's right there in ROTS. It's not glossed over it's that she can't believe it's happening. If she was "abandoning" them then it would be a very different character and story.

    There seems to be some problem with the idea that a hero figure can make wrong choices. Anakin makes wrong choices. Padme makes wrong choices. This isn't the usual "and everything comes right in the end and all the faults are corrected" kind of story.

    You see something blithe and lame? Fine. I see a character whose motivations are not at all unlike Anakin's in that she like he likes to fix things. She wants to fix the whole galaxy at the cost of her personal life and now there is someone who she can try to help on the most personal of levels. So it's right in line with her character.

    I don't follow that as that is always going to be the case in anything in movies along these lines. There is a plot and the characters have to go to that place to get there. Why do any of them do what they do? Because that is what is needed for the story.

    Rey is TFA is one of the the most blatant of these manipulations ever seen. There really is little to no build to her story as a character or why anything is happening to her. In comparison Padme's story is a hundredfold character laden tale. In comparison to pretty much every other character in the saga outside of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Luke.


    There was no genocide and calling him Violent Murderer Man undecuts the whole premise of the argument.

    Obviously you just don't care for them as characters.

    Alright then but for myself who does I have no problem at all seeing the depth and detail in her character and her relationship with Anakin.

    Sorry but I just don't see this "swooning" character you see at all. She simply doesn't exist in the movies. I see the same strong principled but flawed person she always was. Lucas gives his characters flaws and progresses the story with them.

    He did show her becoming frustrated though but it can't be done in some highly detailed dialogue based TV way when it's being done as a movie.

    The thing I note is that for whatever reason the way Lucas presented the movies didn't give you enough of what you wanted. Lucas creates a grand massive story that simply can't be told in 3 movies to the way that some people wanted. He couldn't do it as as 6 movies or a TV series with all the things that some people wanted.

    He has to tell very specific sections of the story and the characters for the movies.
     
  5. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Earlier in this thread, I linked to an article discussing the character. Here’s an excerpt:
    I’d say that’s a perfect description of the character. Why would someone to whom values are very important and who believes in treating everyone as equally as possible marry a mass murderer? Please explain how this doesn’t represent a giant contradiction.
    Um no, that’s not the character that the film portrays. The film portrays a character who believes in a fair and representative democracy and who places her duty to her people above all else and who tries to do her best for her people at every turn. The character you’re describing is a control freak, power-hungry, fascist psychopath who condones mass murder as long as it serves her goals. That may be an apt description of Anakin Skywalker, but that’s certainly not a description of Natalie Portman’s character.
    In a good movie, like, say, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, the characters’ actions determine the plot. In a bad movie, like, say, ATTACK OF THE CLONES, the plot dictates the characters’ actions. So I actually agree with you. Movies along these lines (i.e. bad movies) are wholly dependent upon plot contrivances rather than organic development.
    And Han Solo. And Princess Leia. And Lando Calrissian. And C-3PO. And R2-D2. And the Emperor. You can argue about Portman’s character in THE PHANTOM MENACE. I think she’s pretty boring and forgettable, but she’s not terrible. She’s just drawn in very broad strokes, given 2 or 3 generic notes to play and doesn’t interest me very much. She’s no worse than any of the other characters in THE PHANTOM MENACE. She’s in the same boat of tolerable but forgettable that Liam Neeson, Samuel L. Jackson, Terence Stamp and Obi-Wan Kenobi occupy during that film (Obi-Wan fortunately got progressively better with each prequel film whereas Portman sadly just got progressively worse with each prequel). ATTACK OF THE CLONES is where things start to get a bit iffy. In some scenes, she basically retains her character from THE PHANTOM MENACE- a committed, principled and idealistic young Senator who passionately fights for her beliefs. Yet she’ll just completely ignore and gloss over the heinous crimes committed by her psychopathic, murderous boyfriend because…

    Because…

    It’s never explained, aside from the fact that she’s apparently in love with him for God knows what reason.
    Obviously, you did not see these scenes.





    Say what you will about Han Solo, but he never murdered children and he never strangled Princess Leia.
    He murders children, and she decides that her psycho boyfriend’s feelings are more important than all the kids he just murdered. She then decides to settle down with this murderous psycho creep and start a family with him. Despite the fact that we’re supposed to believe that she’s a principled idealistic leader. What kind of principled idealistic leader just abandons all of those principles because some GQ model shows up?


    What flaws? I guess you could argue that she’s stubborn, but that’s shown as proof of her political convictions and the depth of feeling that she has for her people. Lucas uses it to show just how good a person she is, and her stubbornness is never shown to have a negative effect on her relationships with people or her wider political goals. So nope. Try again.
    In a later interview he said:
    And here’s how the great Lawrence Kasdan described Lucas’s approach to characterization:
    I think Kasdan nails it better than anyone else, and I think that really gets to the heart of where the prequels fail. How can you write and direct a tragedy if you don’t care about characters? And it also gets to the heart of why the best STAR WARS film is the one directed by Irvin Kershner and written by Lawrence Kasdan. Kershner and Kasdan simply have a far better understanding of character than Lucas does. Even Pauline Kael, who hated the original STAR WARS, gave gushing praise to the most character-driven entry in series- THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.
     
  6. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Too late to re-edit, but sorry about some of the technical goofs in the last post.
     
  7. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2016


    Lol well yeah, the question was kinda if there was any green aside from nature (i.e. grass and trees).

    No because I don't see any "transition" - at some point there's the planet with the grass and trees, and then there's not.

    The day/night stuff, on the other hand, is real, but you see it on Utapau as well.


    The lightsabers, well, green used to be the "master" and blue the "apprentice", except Obiwan, but I'm not sure it's very consistent to begin with.


    I didn't call them accidental, I said those parallels weren't consistent with the Leia/Padme parallels, since different things are being "paralleled" with each other.

    The latter a major plot point, the former not conveyed as such in the movie - merely a circumstance.



    There's a difference between not being afraid of certain death, and thinking you've got a good chance of surviving, or acting like you do - the change in tone is very noticeable, doesn't really "work", and murks up whatever "she starts caring more about love" pattern that might've been there otherwise.

    Who's to say she doesn't actually put aside the whole love thing for the duration of the battle, consistent with said shift in tone, and her showing no evidence of prioritizing love/emotions?

    At any rate, it's consistent with the battle goal so there's no dilemma for her to prioritize emotions instead.


    Carbonite and robot arm don't seem particularly similar - plus, Han is lost and abducted, plus he's the main goal of Leia's struggle, in this case she just finds him in the hangar after everything blows over.

    Plus, Luke already got a robot arm in ESB - and Leia also rescues him; she senses where he is, without ambiguity, and insists on rescuing him, against Lando's protests that it's too risky.


    Well in that general sense, yes there is a parallel between those two ;)

    However, it has limits: they're forced to escape the actually more dominant TF station, whereas the Imperials aren't driven out of the Blockade Runner.


    Ah okay I'll go check, I thought the ship had somehow flown back to some hideout, after faking departure.



    All I said was that there's no tangible parallel between Anakin and Neimoidians there - the "punishment" in Anakin's case is for turning away from the good, and now that I think about it, is actually literal punishment by Obiwan; he leaves him to burn despite the ability to save him, and probably cuts his limbs off despite the ability to keep holding back (this is ambiguous).

    Neimoidians merely "pay the price" - they were already evil, went to Satan, and get whacked, it's a "punishment" of a very different kind.
    Plus, they're not sufficiently present in the third movie (or the second for that matter), so the "arc" of making a pact and then getting "punished" can only be inferred - by the end, they're pitiful and don't wanna fight anymore, is it due to losing the war, or some kind of internal change? Script doesn't show any of that, and when the basics aren't there, symbolic interpretations are dodgy as well.

    So in the broadest sense, Mustafar is the place where both pay the price for their misdeeds - however, that's where any "parallels" end, saying there's no parallels between Separatists and Jedi because of that, doesn't hold up.


    Well as I said to you, or someone else maybe, novelisations are a separate entity due to being written by someone else, and having deviations from what was shown on screen


    Two threads? Wait, wasn't there just that "image heavy" one?

    Thing is, I'd already noticed that thread months ago, way before making an account (prompted by the discussion in "embittered fans", mainly), and remember finding the image parallels to be interesting and NOT reaching - however, your conclusions in this response are mostly quite reaching.


    Some of the parallels/inversions you (and many others) bring up, have a very limited extent - they begin and end where they are, and can't be used to fill gaps elsewhere.
    This is particularly true because the juxtappositions aren't really consistent - as I said, on Hoth/Geonosis, Padme=Leia on one hand, but Republic=Empire on the other.

    Clearly, the "republic=empire" can't be used to explain some other bit of the movie, when "republic=rebels" is ALSO an established parallel that was even running concurrently in the same very sequence.

    Unless you can substantiate it further, such arguments are basically grasping at straws.
    Are you making a more solid case in that image thread, or those "two" threads? I'll revisit them in a few moments and check it out.
     
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  8. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    After talking with Heels, we've decided we've got just a few too many Padme threads that could really go into one big thread, so in that heart

    "Was Padme in ROTS handled right or the latter?"
    and!
    "What did Padmé die of?"

    Shall be merged into one catch-all Padme thread - the Padme thread - but now with a ****ton more posts. So in that spirit, we're renaming it to something snarky

    So. Play nice and enjoy!
     
  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Cool thread rename :)
     
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  10. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Figured it's something the PT section regulars would enjoy :p
    I spend enough time in RYL to know
     
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Sorry but what does RYL stand for?
    Agreed though.
     
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  12. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Rethink Your Life, our resident hell social thread

    Anyways, we're getting a bit off topic, so

    Padme's blue fabricy outfit thing! Always loved that one
     
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  13. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2016
    Wait, are the posts now chronological or separated between the threads? Is there a way to tell which post is from which thread? :confused:
     
  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Was also wondering that.
     
  15. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    @Seagot There is also “Padme thread“ made by xezene. I don‘t know if it could be merged here.
    By the way, great idea :)
     
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  16. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    I like the new title!

    And yes, girlfriend really pulled through the fashion. Being attacked? Turns her shirt into a crop top. Going to sleep? Why not a gown with pearls?
     
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  17. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Honestly, I'm not sure. I've never merged three threads

    Hm.... seems distinct enough to keep itself as its own thing, but it's fairly far back
     
  18. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Padme has the GOAT fashion sense. I love someone on YouTube pointed out she bought a beautiful wedding dress and Anakin just wears his dirty Jedi robes. LOL [face_laugh] I love that romance. :p
     
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  19. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Thank you, Seagoat!

    One request from me - while I am all for deep discussion and tying in existing social trends and tendencies to the films, I ask that we keep the discussion grounded in the films. Thank you all.
     
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  20. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2016
    A GOAT fashion SEnse? Not sure what that means, also I've got some trouble with my caps lock apparently nvm.


    Anyway, this isn't that important to me (certainly not in this case, at least), and this is gonna be my last post on this issue, but I think merging several threads into one, with no way of telling which post was from which thread and them all thrown together, makes things messier and more disorganized than having 2-3 similar threads in the subforum.

    That's unless the same people have been maintaining the same discussion across all those threads, cross-quoting and whatnot, then it makes it better I suppose.


    Anyway, that was that.
     
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  21. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    GOAT="greatest of all time"

    Padme had the best fashion in the Saga. And the hair! Skywalker hair has a lot of Anakin in it for sure, but Padme really brought a level of genetic excellence to the Skywalker follicles.
     
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  22. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    GOAT is acronym for Greatest Of All Time. :p Means she has a very fantastic fashion sense :D

    Anyway, my favorite movie with Padme as a character is Episode II. :)
     
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  23. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    As much as I love Anidala and I could watch them all day, for good Padme goodness I like her best in TPM. Padme and Obi-Wan are my favorites in that film.

    Padme is sneaky, heroic, and also the teenage queen of a beautiful home world which fulfills the 14 year old fangirl who still lives a little in my soul. And of course the crazy clothes, makeup, and hair.
     
  24. Davak24

    Davak24 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2015
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  25. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013

    [face_rofl]

    Sorry but I guess that means that LK doesn't at all care for ANH then?

    Also what exactly is Kasdan's excuse for TFA then which is far more in the ANH mode (while doing less for pretty much everyone other than Kylo Ren) then anything that Lucas did in the PT which has scene after scene about the character's relationships? Far more overall BTW then anything in the OT or TFA. The emotional resonance in the PT for Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Shmi, etc is of a far greater scale and depth.

    Like I say compare the trio of the PT to the trio of the OT and now for TFA the trio of the ST (Rey, Kylo Ren and Finn). Now of course TFA is only one movie so we'll see how it develops but Rey and Finn need massive work starting with VIII.

    I think Kasdan nails it better than anyone else, and I think that really gets to the heart of where the prequels fail. How can you write and direct a tragedy if you don’t care about characters? And it also gets to the heart of why the best STAR WARS film is the one directed by Irvin Kershner and written by Lawrence Kasdan. Kershner and Kasdan simply have a far better understanding of character than Lucas does.[/quote]

    Sorry but as you very well know Lucas' prints are all over TESB from start to finish so there is no use for anyone to pretend otherwise.

    So did LK then decide to write non-characters in Rey and Finn who are plot not character driven? If so why? Why not make it about their characters?

    Obviously you don't care about the prequel characters. I do. I care for them greatly (as far as movies go) and it totally enhances the OT because of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious that then come back in the OT. Lucas cared about the characters so he found his passion to write and direct it or he wouldn't have spent 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars to do so.

    The best Star Wars film is the one written and directed by George Lucas. Revenge of the Sith. He has a far better understanding of Star Wars and characters in it than anyone else will ever because they can only play in his universe that be created in the first place.