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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Padmé Amidala MEGAthread - Don't look at her that way. It makes her uncomfortable

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ganesh Ujwal, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Qui-Riv-Brid, it surprises me as well that this is Kasdan's opinion. I know for myself, I'm a very character-driven fan if you will. I will forgive plot holes the size of Texas if I really like the characterization and the acting. And for me, I would not be as much of a fan of Star Wars without the PT. I always liked Star Wars just fine but it was Anakin that made me a fan at first and then all the other characters fell in line for me shortly thereafter.
     
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  2. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2016
    Qui-Riv-Brid
    I'm sorry, did you read the entire quote?

    Kasdan said, GL cared a lot about characters as in what philosophical concepts they represented, and how the plot moved etc. - while LK cared about natural character dynamics and humor derived from their "eccentricities".

    Well... there was a lot, lot less of that in the PT, I'm sorry. Most of the character interactions there are like conversations between Ben and Vader - stoic, prose-filled, representing what the characters are about etc.

    Most of the humor is deadpan and "controlled", in that way.


    OT is filled with natural, organic interaction, on the other hand. That's what Kasdan was talking about.



    Hey wait, wasn't ROTS the movie with the most "outsider participation"? Like, moar people wrote dialogue, some directors guest-directed? Or something?

    Anyway, this paragraph reads like a distilled religious creed more than anything else - so "Star Wars" is its own thing working with entirely different parameters from any other movie, huh?
    Lucas is best at Star Wars, because he created Star Wars? ROTS is the best, because it was Lucas and he understands Star Wars better than anyone?

    That's the most circular thing I've read since someone transcribed the cheerios scene from Family Guy.


    And yes, this board is the right place for that kind of sentiment, but you're responding to someone who doesn't accept such premises, and doesn't accept "A is best because it was made by A who made A" type arguments, so it'll be to no avail.
     
  3. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Hell? No no.. Worse than hell or purgatory itself...




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  4. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    I love the PT characters to death. More than the OT and ST and EU.

    Obi-Wan is a slick but by-the-books stickler who has a sense of sarcasm and is like James Bond as a Jedi in his suaveness.

    Anakin is the arrogant yet heart-in-the-right-place swashbuckler who is inherently flawed from the beginning (since we know he becomes Vader) and has a character that can be interpreted in so many different ways. You can spend hours debating if Anakin is the greatest hero, the most interesting anti-hero, or the most down right savage protagonist and whether we were suppose to root for or against him. He's such a fascinating character to analyze and I can't say the same for Luke or Rey.

    Padme is the most interesting female SW character to me. Loving, caring, yet can hold her own in battle and brings feminine traits along with aggressive "ain't gonna stand for your BS" Leia does the same but I've always gravitated to Padme for some reason. I've felt Leia kinda gets cast to the side alot except for one scene she has where she does something cool but Padme always seemed like such an integral part to the PT. How many characters cause Darth Sidious, the master manipulator, to backpedal and change his plans?
     
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well this how you see them and that is fine.

    I however don't agree.

    Obi-Wan is the best of the three. He is underused in TPM and not given much to do. But in the other two films he has more to do and Ewan delivers a pretty solid performance.

    Anakin?
    In TPM he was a generic wonder-kid that was great at everything and the character was hampered by bad acting and bad directing.
    In AotC I found him to be a unlikeable, arrogant **** with little to no redeeming features.
    At the end he has committed mass-murder and has acted in rather creepy way towards Padme.
    The first half of RotS is the only part with a somewhat good Anakin. The acting is better and he isn't as much of an unlikeable ****. Then he has to hold a massive Idiot ball in order for the plot to work.

    Padme?
    In TPM I found her accent as the queen distracting. Why did she sound like her mouth is full of marbles? But she is overall serviceable.
    In AotC I found her reaction to mass-murder and small scale genocide a bit odd given her character. And her not suggesting Anakin seeking help is even odder.
    So in her case, I found the character was bent to service the plot.
    And for both Anakin and Padme, the romance plot didn't work at all. Both due to the script but also due to the acting. They could not say these lines and sound like they meant them.
    In RotS? You talk about Leia being sidelined, Padme is sidelined that whole movie pretty much.
    She as a character is reduced to basically a plot device, she is the reason why Anakin turns and she has to squeeze out two babies. Once both task are done, she dies, in a less than great manner.

    All in my opinion.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  6. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    :) Also very good points too.

    Obi-Wan was sidelined in Episode I I agree. Could've used much more screentime. Though I feel in Episode II and III, he becomes a far more interesting character than IV, V, VI imo.


    Anakin is Episode I is also a fair criticism though I get the same from Luke and Rey. To be fair, Luke and Anakin became characters (not role models in whether you relate or liked them) in their sequels, so I can't dismiss Rey's character completely. All 3 have some things in common. They are all goody-two-shoes in the first film, all 3 lose a father figure and all 3 have an underlying issue (Mostly Anakin and Rey) I would say Luke too but the death of Uncle and Aunt is pretty quickly dimissed to follow his path. Anakin and Rey both have an underlying fear, both to do with family. Anakin leaving his mom, Rey being left by her parents. AOTC and ROTS is up to you if you care for Anakin after. I can see you're not a fan, and that's a fine opinion. Absolutely nothing to debate or wrong with that. Agree to disagree.


    Padme is close to Leia in 4. Really no one in the intro of all 3 trilogies had super complex character development and both are no exception. They are both strong willed characters in their own right. Luckily, Padme had the opportunity to liberate the world she served, Imperials used a giant super weapon, so it wasn't fair for Leia. Not a fan of her going in and out of a British accent either.

    I personally don't enjoy the Han-Leia romance. Probably more I find Leia to be a more interesting character than Han. But Leia is at her best in Empire.

    Padme In ROTS? I agree, it sucks she didn't get a "bigger" role in terms of actions but she wasn't completely sidelined imo. Not like Leia was in TFA, where she just ends up leader of the successor of The Rebellion, which is still a guerrilla movement. But her role is at least a catalyst to the film's plot. Sidious would probably take over the galaxy, regardless if Anakin joined, sure, in the same Palpatine would destroy the rebellion with or without Luke in ROTJ, but she is obviously the reason for Anakin's final choices which affect the galaxy years to come. I know you feel her character was weak-willed but I find her as a metaphor for waning light in a dark time. By the time the Empire rises, purity doesn't have a say in government. Some adapt to assist the Jedi "rebellion,"like Bail. Maybe the metaphor is a bit too nail-on-the head BUT when the force is the main power in a fictional galaxy, it's really just speculation and debate unless anything is really explicitly explained.

    Good responses from you too. This is just my view.
     
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  7. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    I imagine the flat Queen accent was utilized so that in Padme's and the decoys' use of it, there is an added difficulty in telling them apart. Sort of like printing in all capital letters.

    Padme's dynamic with Anakin is different than that with everyone else. That is the point. I don't see it as the inconsistency some do, but rather an intentional contrast. To emphasize how he was her soft spot. And vice versa.
    As we have seen previous to the Tusken slaughter, her first reaction to Anakin's words and actions is to comfort him and give advice. She seemed concerned over his statement regarding becoming all-powerful. And while processing that, he confesses to the slaughter. She hesitates a minute, pausing, deciding which direction to go. And of course she goes with the nurturer. -A side of her she only has an outlet through with Anakin. Just as Anakin has a human connection and mother figure in her, to put it briefly.-
    It's natural to assume she would've/should've continued eventually by adding that he should seek help for his rage issue.
    But, Anakin replies by expressing that he is a Jedi and that he knows he's better than that.
    So perhaps she felt it was unnecessary to continue her thought at that moment. She may have felt it was best in that moment to let him first deal with his grief, then return to the issue when things settled down. Which didn't happen until after Geonosis, (and the movie was ending).

    It appears they agreed to bury it, though. Right? I'm trying to recall if Obi-Wan knew about it in the CW series. Regardless, in the films, it appears he only told Palpatine, right?
    So either way, I agree that not seeking help was a mistake, and as his wife, if Padme never urged him to, then she was complicit in that. Call it enabling, call it codependence if one must - perhaps that is the tragedy of their love.
    -(I feel the romance plot works and the script is fine - especially taking into account the more Arthurian/Shakespearian stylization (interpretation mine), but for years I felt the onscreen chemistry fell flat, making it hard to buy how much they loved each other in AotC. But taking into account both characters' relative inexperience* and romantic awkwardness, coupled with George's own admissions as a director, that aspect started to gel for me and became relatively forgivable. Besides, there's plenty going on beneath the surface of the plot points to compensate for, and compliment it.
    *Yes, Padme talked about her first kiss during childhood, but I imagine after becoming Queen she didn't have much time to pursue boyfriends).

    They agreed at one point that their secrets and lies would destroy them. And they were right.
    Shmi's death gave rise to a paranoia that Anakin just couldn't conquer on his own. And the slaughter he carried out that night was his gateway drug to the Dark Side.
     
  8. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    After a brief rewatch last night, I've again come to the conclusion that all analysis and opinion-spouting is useless and spouting of the mouth. Watching, I felt myself getting immersed, you have to let yourself get immersed in them and then the qualities of the films and characters present themselves to you. If you don't or can't get immersed, fine, but that's the extent of it. If you can't or won't get immersed, then you are seeing the films from the outside, not from the inside, so of course everything is going to look distorted. Films are mediums to experience. To sit and pontificate or analyze, as the internet is so fond of doing, is a pointless waste of air. And here I am, on the internet, saying such things. I know it's a contradiction. But the flat-out fact is that all "this is my view" or "this is your view" is pointless because views are pointless. Opinions are useless. If you are detached to the point where opinions and views become cemented, it's already too late to appreciate anything anyway. True immersion of anything -- whether they are life experiences or art experiences -- go beyond likes or dislikes, 'yes'es and 'no's. As soon as "yes" and "no" are introduced, it's all out the window.

    I know I am speaking in abstractions. I am gonna have to blame some of this on vestiges of my time at a Zen monastery, where such things are commonplace. But the truth of the matter is that speech and words are generally off the mark when they discuss opinions or likes or dislikes. They are useless then.

    Anyway, this is a contradiction. I am on a discussion board, discouraging discussion. Okay. I accept it makes no sense. But the only thing I can say is -- immerse yourself. Just watch the films with open eyes, open ears, and leave the discriminating, deluded opinion-attached mind to rest. Thoughts on Padme, thoughts on Anakin, whatever will all clarify itself once immersed. If you don't immerse, and you just critique it, you miss the entire point of art and get engaged in a mental game, one in which the vast majority of the world is addicted to. For me, I appreciate Padme, I appreciate all the characters, but what does it say to appreciate? They just are. At this point words fail. Just immerse yourself in the films and the images and sounds.

    With this, I retreat once more from the internet discussion forums.
     
  9. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Padme>>><<<Shmi

    Palpatine>>><<<Padme

    Padme>>><<<Luke

    Padme>>><<<Padme

    It's interesting to note that Padme is truly the spiritual and emotional of all things Star Wars I-VI. She is the duality of Yin and Yang itself, while being the "center" of the entirety. The correlation between The Villain>>>The Son>>>The Mother>>>"The Form Of Self" is striking and the parallels that connect between time and space is something Lucas didn't just do it for the sake of it. The character understanding of Padme is spread out across a few characters..Little bits and pieces just seemingly placed into the small narrative and theme.

    Ever wonder what the little dots in the Yin/Yang symbol represent?

    [​IMG]

    Black implies white/White Implies black-Alan Watts

    With the ever dark there is light, but with every light there is dark....

    Padme is the light, but she shares similarities with the darkness...Palpatine shares Darkness, but he too shares similar light...All is the constant same yet nothing is quite understandingly like it under the hood.

    "yin and yang (also yin-yang or yin yang, 陰陽 yīnyáng "dark—bright") describe how seemingly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another. Many tangible dualities (such as light and dark, fire and water, expanding and contracting) are thought of as physical manifestations of the duality symbolized by yin and yang"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

    Lucas payed attention to the philosophical structure of the Chinese philosophy, and integrated it into SW as a whole. It's not as much as it was in TPM, but it's spread out so you can see the connections and puzzles being put together as they were one. The visual symmetry seems almost INFINITE in it's design! Only a person who of a crazy maniacal mind would create such a story unnatural settings!

    Ahhh...

    I'm slightly going in over my head:p

    Ramble over/:D



    Off Topic: ROTS is one of my favorite iterations of Padme's character because there, her depth is exceeded. AOTC and TPM stand even.
     
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  10. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    2K-D2 summed it up pretty damn well. You can also see this predilection of Kasdan’s in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK (and, for the record, I consider RAIDERS to be the single best film on Lucas’s résumé):





    One of my favorite little underrated bits from RAIDERS is during the bar fight, where whisky is pouring out of the bullet holes in the barrels, and she takes a quick sip. I don’t know if that was in the script or if Karen Allen was just ad libbing, but either way, it’s a brilliant little bit of quirky characterization that always gets a chuckle out of me.
     
  11. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013
    very sad to see people still crapping on a character like Padme. :mad:

    I don't and will NEVER have time for that
     
  12. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2000
    Reading this thread, I see two phenomena that affect the audience's view of Padmé's characterisation:
    1. Whether or not the audience receives the impression that the characterisation is intentional - in this case, that Padmé is someone experienced and capable in the political arena, but inexperienced and more prone to mistakes in her romantic life, to the extent that she allows her idealistic hopes for her romantic life to negatively affect what she should be more capable of handling given her political experience.
      I get the impression that an audience that believes the characterisation to be intentional tends to react better to it, probably because they'll be more interested in seeing how the author explores some consequences of this characterisation. When one believes the characterisation to be unintentional, it's easier to say "but such-and-such a different characterisation might make for a more interesting story". Consequently, it is sometimes important that the author manages to convey within a story that certain character flaws are intentional instead of just hoping that the audience will realise it.
    2. Whether or not the audience is interested in such a characterisation. Regardless of whether or not the audience believes the characterisation to be intentional, sometimes the audience just doesn't connect with the characterisation of someone characterised in a certain way (e.g. "people can be better than this"), or perhaps they know people who fit that characterisation too well and would like to see something less familiar.
    Just some meta-thoughts. :)
     
  13. bizzbizz

    bizzbizz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    so i just started watching attack of the clones again. and are they hinting at the fact palpatine manipulated things to make sure anakin and padme ended up getting together?

    • he assigns obi-wan and anakin to protect padme
    • he knows that jam wessell/jango will fail to assassinate her with them both there
    • he know's that the council will still want padme protected as they start there investigation
    • the jedi are being pushed to there limits so its safe to say they will split up obi-wan and anakin
    or am i reading too much into it
     
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  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It has been speculated on.
    Imo Palpatine did it on purpose, yeah.

    Also, he gets the leader of the oppostion to the GAR, Padme, away on Naboo during the critical vote, so it is easier to push the Republic into war.
    As Palpatine foresaw, Padme struggles with a significant conflict between personal desires and her duty to the Republic.
     
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  15. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    I see it as Palpatine setting himself up for a win-win. If Jango was successful and Padme dies, then he gets rid of the main opposition to his army and it crushes Anakin a bit. If she lives and he can play on and strengthen Anakin's attachments, then that also works and he'll find another way to get the army through Dooku (which of course, he does).

    I don't like the idea of Palpatine being all-knowing and powerful, but rather a powerful Sith who used the Force to set himself up for success.
     
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  16. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Exactly. That's what makes his plans so brilliant imo

    By the time he sets things up and begins to enact things, if it goes according to his plan, great. Even if it doesn't, the important pieces are still lined up the way he wants, so it's still a victory
     
  17. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    We discussed that topic in several threads, so I'll not repeat it again, and I agree with you of course, I will only add this: ignoring the strategic skills and the brilliant yet twisted mind of Palpatine makes this character look bland and dull. He is evil and exactly for that is cunning. His style is like of a skilled card player or chess player: one move and he wins the next round no matter what happens.

    Also I dislike the fact that this actually would diminish the importance of Padme in the events that leads to the end of the Republic, the Clone wars, etc.( I mean if we conclude that the reason behind all this is Anakin and his falling). Padme is important. She shouldn’t be in the Senate for at least two reasons: her opposition to the Military Act and her idealistic view of the democracy (they lured Jar Jar that Padme would vote for emergency powers but we all know that she would never do that).
    So Palpatine just uses the opportunity of Obi Wan, that's it.
     
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  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I concur, I have debated this in the past and some want Palpatine to have foreseen/planned for essentially EVERYTHING. Down to the smallest detail. He knows everything that will happen.

    My thought is that if he has this level of foreknowledge, then his victory is not impressive as he has a massive advantage over all others.

    I think he made an overall plan but it is flexible and he thinks on his feet and adjusts his plans when a setback occurs or takes advantage of an unexpected event.

    Like Wilson Fisk in the first season of Daredevil, he had an overall plan but he made adjustments due to events and he could take advantage of un-foreseen circumstances.

    I don't understand why some want Palpatine to be this awesome Sith God.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  19. Banana-Wan Kenobi

    Banana-Wan Kenobi Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2016

    I never understood why people loved Commander Vimes so much, but hey! Perspectives differ:p
     
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  20. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    [​IMG]

    The issue for me is that right up until the arena fight, Padme is hands down the single greatest female character in either trilogy, and up there in all of SW media. After that point, she's almost unrecognisable as even being the same person to me.
     
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  21. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Sorry but as you very well know Lucas' prints are all over TESB from start to finish so there is no use for anyone to pretend otherwise.

    So did LK then decide to write non-characters in Rey and Finn who are plot not character driven? If so why? Why not make it about their characters?

    Obviously you don't care about the prequel characters. I do. I care for them greatly (as far as movies go) and it totally enhances the OT because of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious that then come back in the OT. Lucas cared about the characters so he found his passion to write and direct it or he wouldn't have spent 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars to do so.

    The best Star Wars film is the one written and directed by George Lucas. Revenge of the Sith. He has a far better understanding of Star Wars and characters in it than anyone else will ever because they can only play in his universe that be created in the first place.[/quote]


    Oh, look. George Lucas is getting thrown under the bus again by people he worked with who also make poor mistakes when it comes to creating things in this franchise. Can't say I'm surprised. By the way, that's a pretty great thing to call Finn and Rey at this point. Non-characters.



    The entire scene with Mace, Sidious and Anakin shows the risk that he took in his plans to create the Empire. His last cry of "Power!" was a feeling of relief, glee and triumph after nearly having all of his plans die on the blade of the Order's finest swordsman and having stared death in the face himself.
     
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  22. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Why exactly in the arena fight?
     
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  23. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    All the way up to the Arena fight, she's proactive and determined and will not be controlled or dominated by anyone - not even the Jedi Council. During the fight she holds her own as well as two fully trained Jedi, in fact she's actually the first one to get free of her chains.

    But then after the Arena fight, Anakin and Obi-Wan go on to duel against a Sith Lord - Padme gets knocked out of a transport instead. In the next film, Anakin and Obi-Wan are these badass warriors and proactive heroes - Padme is basically reduced to a plot device, a walking talking punching bag for Anakin to get worked up by/about. The one chance she gets to be proactive and change something, starting the Petition of Two Thousand and presenting it to Palpatine, he basically goes ''HahahaNo." and ignores her completely. It's then used as part of Anakin's character development and plotline but Padme's only real relevance to the plot is to get Obi-Wan to Mustaphar (unintentionally) and die.
     
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  24. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    I'd argue that Padme acts the same after falling, getting some troops together to try and capture Dooku.
     
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  25. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Possibly she does, but it's entirely off screen and doesn't actually achieve anything the Jedi and clones weren't already going to do anyway. For me, it's the point where she goes from someone who does things to someone things happen to. Even if the debate as to exactly when a change occurred is a valid one, I don't really think anyone can argue Padme in ROTS is a very different character indeed to the Padme of the first two films.

    I know some will point out that she was pregnant but that doesn't justify her complete U-turn in characterisation to me. Her changing in some ways, yes. But a complete personality transfer? I ain't buying that. I've known more than a few ladies who have had children and not one of them suddenly switched around as completely and suddenly as Padme did.
     
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