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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Padmé Amidala MEGAthread - Don't look at her that way. It makes her uncomfortable

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ganesh Ujwal, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Saw a funny edit. It's from Episode 2 when Anakin uses Padme as bait, and he talks about it with Obi-Wan. Inside Padme's room they cut to a lesbian scene from Black Swan. R2 is watching and gets so excited he short circuits. :cool:
     
  2. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    I thought there is something in the area fight that bothers you (I mean, about Padme).
    Everybody falls in these movies, even Yoda, even Mace, even Obi Wan. The falling is concentrated mostly in AOTC and ROTS. The literal falling is used as reference to the metaphorical one: the PT are part 1, the falling and OT is part 2, rising. So, this falling was innetional but the intention wasn't to reduce her character. Padme falls 2 or more precisely said 3 times in AOTC: in the droid factory, in the arena and from the plane. In two of these fallings Anakins can't protect her (in the third one she did it by herself). The problem is not oly that he is asigned to do that 'at all cost' (is his failing, not hers) but it also reflects what would happen later in the Saga: he wouldn't be capable to it.
    Especially the last falling is mirroring of Anakin's own fate: he alsmost looses concience, he looses the fight (is knoked out and hurt). Anakin comes to his senses in the time when Padme wake up in the sand. Curious, isn't it? So, the falling didn't reduce nothing, I would say even that it paradoxically saves her... If she was in that hangar, Dooku would kill her first. And he would succeed.

    About ROTS: I'll will not enter again in the same discussion of the previous pages, I'll say only something that was obvious for me but maybe is not so obvious as I thought.
    In all PT we see Padme exclusively trough Anakin's eyes. The way she looks like, the way she acts: the viewer see mostly what Anakin sees (I'm not talking about some specific scenes but as general feeling). In TPM she is mysterious, marvelous beig. IN AOTC: the queen of his dreams, femenine, attractive (in many ways). In ROTS: fragile. This is the best word that describes her in Ani's eyes, but not for the pregnancy but for his terrifing premonitions.Of couse ,this requires deeepr analysis, but I'll ulllustrate that with 2 pictores from AOTC where she seems completely different as she plays completely different role about Anakin.
    In Lars garage, when Padme soothes him, she looks so motherly, because that is her role here. Even the costume that she wears looks like that.
    [​IMG]

    The lake scene: femenine, attractive and I don't know how they made it, but she looks older than him exactly in this scene (Natalie is younger than Hayden). I know it is deliberate, so this is one of the details that amazed me the first time I saw the movie.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    P.S. Ok, there some problem with one of the pictures in the original source, bit anyway, the garage scene is popular enough.
     
  4. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    I don't know if this has been said yet or not somewhere on this site, but I've reconsidered Padme's death in a new way. This has always been the one thing that has confused me. So I set out to do some research, and believe it or not, I found out that although it is very, very rare, people can die of losing the will to live. Not suicide, not anything medical, but they lose their drive in life and their body simply fails them.

    Now, this is very common in elderly folk. A common example would be when a very old gentlemen loses his wife, he simply fades and passes away. It is a common thing, but when it comes to younger folks it is almost unheard of, unless the young person is under great medical stress (I think giving birth would fit this bill.)

    So I thought, why would Padme go this way? She had two children right? That is reason enough to live. But, after analyzing the prequel trilogy as whole, I've come to the conclusion that romantic relationship between Anakin and Padme is strong, star-crossed, and doomed from the beginning. It is the end of them both. It seems they both begin to loathe the roles they play and care solely for their secret romance. Anakin loses all faith in the Jedi, and Padme is on the verge of giving up on the republic. So their love becomes their reason to live. It is not a self-less love, but a selfish love on both sides. With Anakin, his possesive love for her was his downfall, but his greed for power seemed to even eclipse his possessive lover for her. And it radically changed his life, this is known.

    But! For Padme, when she lost him, she truly lost her world, and her drive to live was lost. Sure yes, she was a mother, but she lost her drive to live before they were born, and her body simply faded away during the pregnancy.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You just described the problem. I believe you, but that's a terrible way for a strong personality like Padme to go.

    I have a bit more sympathy for elderly people who have already filled the remainder of their life purpose, have loved the same person for decades and are sickly anyway.
     
  6. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    I would argue that this is a terrible way for both Padme and Anakin to go. After all the man who was Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist when he lost Padme. It is terrible and nearly shameful way for them both to go, and that is the tragedy of it all.
     
  7. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    Wait...

    She goes from "someone who does things to someone things happen to"?

    It's these types of statements that make me shake my head. I have to step back and wonder if people really watch the movies with already established opinions thus making statements that the movies themselves completely conflict with.

    Padme in the first two movies is not a character who always "does things" to which she is then transformed into a character that "has things happen to her" in ROTS...

    The fact of the matter is that in both TPM and AOTC, a large part of Padme's character is centered around the fact that there is huge amounts of stuff happening to her. That she only reacts when cornered.

    In TPM she is the Queen. There are tons of things that are just happening to her, that she has no say in, that she is along for the ride on, and that she doesn't react too until she realizes there are no other ways about it...

    Her planet is being blockaded, that is happening to her.
    Her planet is being invaded, that is happening to her.
    She is captured, that is happening to her.
    She is rescued by someone else, that is happening to her.
    She is taken to Tatooine, that is happening to her.
    She is taken to Coruscant because of what has happened to her. She had very little choice.
    While on Coruscant, she is wants to do what she thinks is right, but, in the end does what she is told to do (vote of no confidence), that is happening to her.

    It is a fact that Sidious believes Queen Amidala is a pushover because she is not someone that "does things".

    It is only at this point that she stops being a bystander and then turns to actually doing something. Which is standing up for herself, not listening to Palpatine or the Jedi, and doing what she wants to do, independent of what others say. So approx 75% of the movie is things happening to her, only for her to completely reverse her character to do something Sidious sees as unexpected.

    Than we get into AOTC, where yes she has grown and become more assertive, however we see some of the same things happen to her that we saw in TPM.

    Now, yes, Padme is now a Senator, and is a major player in a movement, but, she was a Queen and a leader in TPM. We can safely assume that as Queen she was also performing her daily duties as Queen, just like we see she is performing her duties as Senator. However, she is still someone that suffers from things that happen to her that she just kind of rolls with, only to get fed up enough of the things that happen to her, and than she reacts independently of everyone else (just like TPM).

    She is the victim of an assassination plot, that's happening to her.
    She is told that she must have Jedi guards, that is happening to her.
    She is a told that she must return to Naboo, that is happening to her.
    She is told that she must have a Jedi go with her, that is happening to her.
    She is told where to stay, by Anakin, while he goes and looks for his Mother, that is happening to her.

    Once again, it's not til later in the movie where we she that she makes a decision to break with what everyone else is saying and "does something" when she decides to go to Geonosis to save Obi Wan. It is again, at that point, that her character transforms from a "happens to" to a "does something" mentality.

    So what do we see in ROTS. Well, if one wanted to point out that she has less of a role, less screen time in ROTS than they would be correct. Her actions and screen time are something that is vital to the story of ROTS because the main point of ROTS is to follow Anakin. Her role is not as prominent in ROTS because what she is to Anakin has been established. There are scenes in ROTS that further establish that link between Anakin and Padme, but it is done so that we can understand why Anakin falls to the darkside, not because Padme needed to be put front and center and continue some arc that was never there. So if her role is not as prominent, than we aren't going to see the same amount of story dedicated to her character like we saw in TPM and AOTC.

    There is actually less "happening too" with Padme in ROTS than there is in TPM and AOTC, and while we don't have this huge moment where Padme rises up and pushes back, like we did in TPM and AOTC, there is still a small one...

    When faced with being pressured by Obi Wan to give up Anakin's position, she refuses and instead decides to find out for herself what is going on.

    So I don't get how ROTS was such a shift in Padme's character when the movies don't necessarily show us that she is someone that is always doing something... I think what has happened is people don't realize that her character didn't need any further building up for ROTS. What we needed to see, we saw. What ROTS was about was about Anakin and his fall, and her death.

    The scale of what the character Padme does in ROTS is smaller, but, she is still essentially the same character. Someone who has things happen to her and someone who does things on her own. That seems to be the fate of the character.
     
  8. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    I love the symbiosis between Anakin and Padmé. But your insight about the PT's perspective on Padmé being almost wholly (I'm not too sure as yet about "exclusively") Anakin's was new to me. Thanks for that! I love thinking about shifting narrative perspectives in the Saga and how the tone and colour and pathos of the story can change quite significantly with them. My feeling is that you are right about Padmé, but I'll have to think through the implications of this...
     
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  9. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, this came to me when the problem with the 'sudden confession' of love by Padme was discussed, I don't know in what thread. For me it wasn't sudden at all, but again the same problem: the relationship of Ani and Padme in AOTC is shown mostly through Anakin's eyes. Padme feelings are shown in more how to say it, indirect ways. But then I realized that is not only the relationship, but Padme herself is presented through Anakin's eyes. It is a topic worth to discuss deeper, and maybe add some images to it.
     
  10. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Still a better love story than Twilight. (And Friends)
     
  11. tealeona

    tealeona Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2016
     
  12. tealeona

    tealeona Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Couldn't get a grip of the quotation boxes! Would love to hear more about the idea of Padme seen from Anakin's perspective as Tonyg stated. It does seem to make a connection to the way the prequel trilogy is narrated - perspectives and views which depend on who holds them and would be an interesting opinion to contemplate..
     
  13. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    There is so much to explore... I‘ll post some pictures later because they show indeed this, but now I‘ll make few remarks. Many fans whine how Anakin could look different in every movie (as age) and Padme looks almost the same age. First, Padme is older than Anakin and there is a period in the life of the women when they look almost the same but this is not so important. More important is what Anakin said in the refugee ship in AOTC: you didn‘t change a bit. You are the same I rememeber you in my dreams. And it is shown exactly that way, even in ROTS. Padme may look more fragile but generally she is the same young woman as appearance. And she look fragile because he feel more and more uncapable to protect her. Is funny, but I think that she looks more and more beautiful exactly in ROTS. And Anakin calls her that in this episode. I think it is allusion to his last memories of Padme that (maybe) came back to him as he saw her offspring for the first time.
    But of course, the culmination of all this is in AOTC. Padme love confession in the tunnel seems surprising (at first sight) because is as Anakin saw this. For the viewers, I think there were enough signs of Padme‘s real feelings.
     
  14. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013

    My take on this is that many people seem to really like the perception of pushback and success.

    In movies we are so used to characters who by the end of the movie do nothing but succeed. Padme in TPM gets her planet back and in AOTC beats the droid army back and has a "victory" (victory you say?) so there she is "strong" in ROTS she fails in her goals and dies and therefore is "weak".

    Why was Vader so popular? He was strong and succeeded. He might have the occasional fail but he has the aura of control.

    Starting in ROTJ and in the PT we see he doesn't have control the way some want him to have it.

    In R1 he has that control again and therefore he is succeeding again.
     
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  15. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    I think Padme is a quite shadowy character .
    From PT we only learn that she comes from the same planet with Senator Palpatine.
    That Padme has a great role in helping Palpatine to become Supreme Chancelor.
    Also we know that Padme has a role in Anakin fall to the dark side.
    So, I think Padme realize what she did, when Senator Palpatine reveals that he is a Sith Lord.

    Maybe you will say this is an exaggerate opinion, but maybe Padme is not so innocent as we think.
    Maybe she has a mission from Palpatine to seduce Anakin.
    She feels very bad after, for what she did and this huge grief makes die in childbirth.
     
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  16. Winama Shiraya

    Winama Shiraya Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2017
    I really don't think Padme was sent to seduce Anakin. But Palpatine did use Anakin's love for her to help seduce him to the Dark Side.
     
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  17. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    Haha. Somebody's been watching Robot Chicken Padmé (doing yoga) a bit to much! mihaitzateo
     
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  18. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    If we speak seriously (obviously that from mihaitzateo was simply a joke) it wasn‘t the love but the fear. Anakin was afraid that he would loose Padme in the same way that he lost his mother and he will be helpless to do anything. Is not that fear was with no motive, my point is that he didn‘t fall beacause of his love. The love brought him back in ROTJ, because let‘s face it: he didn‘t know anything about Luke except the fact that he is Padme‘s son (Luke‘s situation is completely different, he realized that his lost father is alive) and that he indeed didn‘t kill his wife. So the love saved him but the fear killed him (metaphorically speaking, of course).
     
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  19. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    I think Padme knows she does something that is "out of place" because
    she flirts with Anakin , while Anakin is already a Padwan.
    I am not saying Padme was put by Palpatine to seduce Anakin.
    I am saying she felt attracted to Anakin and did nothing to fight
    against that attraction.
     
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  20. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    About the images that prove what we discussed above, tealeona. In may threads Padme's costumes were discussed, but mainly these of AOTC and TPM and these of

    ROTS no so much, but indeed there it can be seen the change of Padme's appearance and how she looks not only more fragile but even younger than Anakin and in the other episodes is vice versa. First, in ROTS we Padme in nightdress twice and the nightdress is indeed an outfit that make the person look fragile, with 'no defenses", uncovered, even unsheltered. Here:

    [​IMG]


    and here
    [​IMG]


    Padme appears once in AOTC in nightdress but is covered by robe and looks completely different, 'sheltered' there:
    [​IMG]

    And no matter that in ROTS Padme is wearing dresses that cover her pregnancy, she never appears with covered face or head and I think in that way she look vulnerable, as Anakin sees her. There was ony once scene where she should wear some hood, although the dress is gorgeous, I'm glad they cut that form the movie because this effect of vulnerability would dissapear as Padme here is 'protected by the hood.
    [​IMG]

    She look more and more vulnerable and even in Mustafar where she is dressed with comfortable travel costume. she look indeed that way: I think for 2 main reasons:
    her look (uncovered shoulders, simple hairdress)
    [​IMG]

    and also because for the first time her pregnancy is obvious for the outfit she wears.
    But for me the difference between AOTC and ROTS is astonishing exactly in her most closed moments with Anakin. Anakin and Padme first kiss:
    [​IMG]

    Padme said that she is pregnant:
    [​IMG]

    If someone doesn't know the movie is easy to make the mistake that during the kiss Padme is older, but not, is how Anakin sees her. And all this is made by outfits, make up and so on.
     
  21. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    ^^^^^^^^ Lucas truly walked a thin line between genius and foolishness. These pics show it.
     
  22. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Good point regarding the costume choices and what that emotionally communicates, Tonyg!
     
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  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    i don't think it was a decision. it was the stress, anxiety, grief and horror--an emotional overload. she may not have even known she was dying, but felt faint. what bothers me the most about padme's death is that she was in a medical center and not put on life support when it was noted that she was dying. medically, dying of grief = heart condition, and that can be treated.

    i mean one can fault padme for not being "strong enough" but i wouldn't... some people are stronger than others and that's just that. some people are more emotionally vulnerable than others. and aside from that, faulting padme for this is like faulting someone for developing ptsd. the human psyche can only take so much horror, and depending on one's natural stress resistance some will break under some circumstances faster than others. but everyone will break eventually.

    eta: i saw a horrible (inhumane) program once on pigs and stress resistance. the pigs that were separated from their mother the most had the least stress resistance and would have an anxiety attack when put in in a tank of water that only had one exit. they would just swim around and around in a panic and not be able to find the exit. whereas the pigs that had been more securely with their mothers were able to be calm and solve the problem.

    a lot of these things are set from a very early age, iow. though later events in life ofc can contribute. i don't know for sure, but i would bet one could improve their stress resistance if they tried (but it would probably take years). it can go the other way too--the more traumatic experiences one goes through the more vulnerable they may become.

    padme was probably already stressed and anxious, as she was watching the republic fall (she asks anakin if he ever wonders if they're on the wrong side), was keeping her relationship with anakin a secret, was pregnant, and something was wrong in the relationship with anakin (which i believe she was aware of on some level)... the uncertainty of the future was a cause of anxiety.

    anyway what happened with anakin was a nightmare to her... it would stretch your sense of reality even. she didn't recognize the person he turned into before her eyes, she couldn't believe it. and then he strangled her. it reminds me of the trauma people in relationships with sociopaths go through--and part of that is that once the sociopath is unveiled they can't understand/believe that this person is that heartless... and evil.

    also i think padme/anakin's relationship was codependent. often people who get into codependent relationships don't realize it's not a healthy relationship. how people bond and form relationships is another thing that often reflects early childhood and upbringing. for instance, children of alcoholics are more likely to have a codependent attachment style. padme's childhood looks all perfect from when she goes home to naboo, her family is loving, but idk, something is amiss somewhere. codependent attachment styles can also be learned if it's the style one's parents had (and so it can be passed down generations).

    ...i'm having this total sense of deja vu. i hope i didn't say/post this before somewhere...
     
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  24. Winama Shiraya

    Winama Shiraya Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2017
    I know this has been said a million times by others, and will probably be said about the same amount of times in the future, but I think what really killed Padme was (as oncafar says) the emotional overload of the situation...which was due to her emotional link with Anakin. They had a symbiotic relationship from the beginning, which neither one of them realized, and it directly affects their emotions toward each other. Their emotions are heightened nearly to the point of absurdity, if that makes any sense. Unfortunately when Anakin turned the to Dark Side it destroyed both of them. One literally died, the other died metaphorically.
     
  25. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    oncafar brings up some good points. To expand: Perhaps one of these days I will do a full length article, or video series, on this subject as I've given it consideration for many months, perhaps even years (lol.). But I will give some of my thoughts here. It will involve a lot of discussion related to the scientific theory (might as well say 'fact' at this point, as it is the scientific consensus) of attachment theory. Seeing the saga through the lens of attachment really yields some eye-opening results. It turns out that Star Wars, being mostly about relationships, really yields itself well towards analysis on this topic.

    In watching the films and deleted scenes, we can see that Padme was raised in a secure attachment style, and Anakin ended up with an anxious-ambivalent (pre-occupied) attachment style. Anakin, in line with an insecure attachment style such as that, rather frequently forms fantasy bonds throughout the films. The Jedi are largely dismissing-avoidant attachment. The truth is that Padme's original, healthy objection to the romance in Attack of the Clones was probably the right answer. But, as is the case with so many securely attached people (myself included), sometimes our empathy for others and their suffering gets us sucked into situations that are not good for us. In the case of Padme, this is what we see happen on Tatooine and Geonosis -- her empathy for his suffering starts to really open her heart to Anakin to the point where they end up together. For awhile, perhaps it helped them both, but it's clear later on that they've dealt with attachment problems before ("How long is it going to take for us to be honest with each other?").

    In the end, we can see that as with so many couples, the attachment bonds (especially for Anakin) have strong wounds in them and it often takes the relationship, and the people involved, in an unhealthy direction. Even though Padme's alert signals went off right away in AOTC, she got gradually sucked into it with Anakin. When things develop gradually like that, sometimes you don't realize the extent to which things are unhealthy until it's too late. This is exactly what happened. Padme finally rejects Anakin's plan after pleading with him to choose sanity, but it's too late. Although the relationship probably worsened Padme's attachment style some, she still had enough perspective to reject his calls for Imperial Union between them both etc. So although her attachment likely got worse, she was probably still secure, if only by a little at the end.

    In the case of Anakin though, the result was totally disaster. The events of ROTS were so traumatic for him, and made him so distrustful & hateful of other people and himself (while also being surrounded and pressured by many avoidant types -- the Jedi, Palpatine, etc.), that it worsened his attachment style from anxious-ambivalent (preoccupied) to fearful-avoidant (disorganized). It's an example of how, while insecurely attached people can become more secure, the opposite can happen. Anakin has a total descent and it cripples him for the rest of his life, until his very-securely attached son comes to try to get through to him.

    It is worth noting that the three people who could see what is going on inside Anakin and really empathize and connect with him -- Padme, Luke, and Qui-Gon* -- were all securely attached. It's no surprise -- we see both Padme and Luke grow up in stable childhood families that were supportive. Qui-Gon's early days are a mystery, but he somehow ended up a secure attachment. In the end, securely attached people feel that empathy for others, but often they have enough internal boundaries to be able to see what is right and what is wrong in relations. Padme could and did set that boundary, but her virtue of empathy became a vice that led to her getting further enmeshed with Anakin. In the end she refuses to go dark to join Anakin. In the case of Luke, he also set that boundary when he refused to go dark as well for Anakin. It's probably true that both Padme and Luke thought they could save Anakin in some way -- it is a common theme of more securely attached heroes. Even Qui-Gon had this attitude of empathy towards Anakin, literally saving him from slavery. Today in cinema we see less and less securely attached heroes, though, as audiences seem to enjoy stories about the more mixed-up and darker shades of attachment wounds in a person. This perhaps is reflective of the culture, as insecure attachments are on the rise.

    * -- Some might mention Obi-Wan here. He does merit mentioning, but Obi-Wan is unique. He starts out as a traditional Jedi with dismissing-avoidant attachment in the first two installments, but over time -- through is relations with the clones, Padme, and someone as passionate as Anakin -- he ends up developing more of an almost secure attachment by ROTS. However, the events of the film are so traumatic for him as well, that it sends him spiraling back down to dismissive-avoidant, which continues with him for the rest of his life. Usually shifts in attachment are very gradual, but I believe in the case of ROTS, the scale of the trauma -- and, importantly, the lack of emotional support in its aftermath -- is enough to make major changes, as we see. I believe the events of ROTS give PTSD to both Anakin and Obi-Wan.