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Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Souderwan, Oct 1, 2005.

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  1. JadeSolo

    JadeSolo Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    The depths of the human heart are not touched in her prose, and while she is an honorable person and a respectable writer--a shining exception in the desolate wastelands of SF--she is not a great writer.

    I can't resist saying that I completely disagree with Rottensteiner's view. :p

    I do, however, very much agree with the idea of putting Frodo-esque characters into SW. I actually feel that Imperials capture much of that essence. They don't have any special powers, and in the grand scheme of the Empire, they're pretty dispensable (hence the Vader chokeholds). But they're in a situation, they have to figure a way out, and there are serious ramifications if they fail. They're ordinary people who happen to serve an unordinary Emperor.

    Now that I think about it, I've yet to see an Imperial in profic or fanfic that I'd deem a cheap OC. [face_thinking]
     
  2. GrandAdmiralV

    GrandAdmiralV Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2005
    Maybe that's why I enjoy writing Imperial characters so much. Because without the crutch of uber-Force powers or whatever, you really need to focus on who they are -- why they do what they do.

    I haven't written a Jedi-centered fic yet, and I don't really plan to. I like writing about the "Mrs. Brown"s of the GFFA. That probably dooms me to a limited readership, but so be it. Luckily, I've never been accused of writing a Mary Sue...whichever definition we're using. ;)
     
  3. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Well, I could think of a lot of SW characters who are not Mary Sues/Gary Stu, rather a Brownian averageman who rises above to do what needs to be done.

    Wedge Antilles for one - no superpowers, nothing but his intellect and his flying ability and a generally nice guy. Heck most of the Rogue Squadron for that matter - yes, even Janson. :p

    Admiral Pelleion (spelling is my bane)

    And yet a lot of OCs in the profic world seem to radiate (I won't say scream although there are few of those) the Sue/Stu persona.


    Problem is - how to avoid writing a Mary Sue and, even if you tried really hard, is it inevitable that you write one? I know that I wrote a character that I thought was nothing like me and yet my friends all said that she was. Completely unconsciously done. How do you avoid it???
     
  4. Persephone_Kore

    Persephone_Kore Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2006
    I'd just not bother worrying about whether the OC is like you -- aside from authors generally putting a bit of themselves into characters, a useful point I've seen made in other areas is that a really accurate self-insert, in a generally well-written story with attention to everyone else's characterization, plausibility of the plot, etc., is pretty much guaranteed not to be a Mary Sue. "Mary Sue" is generally... not real enough for the story. An accurate self-insert has realistic characterization by definition, and "self-insert" doesn't necessarily mean bad writing.

    I suppose my feeling is that it's fine to be in love with your characters, just not infatuated with them. *grin* Love is when you really pay attention to them and want to know about them, whether you're discovering, analyzing, making things up, whatever. They can have imperfections and you love'em anyway. Infatuation is when you can't see the flaws, or are convinced they're actually virtues, and can't bear for any other characters to see them in a bad light without being HORRIBLE, AWFUL, NASTY PEOPLE, and so forth.

    *ponders* I'd guess I'd say the way to avoid a Mary Sue is simply to make sure that you also have some affection for the other characters and the way the universe you're playing in works.
     
  5. ardavenport

    ardavenport Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Well, asking someone else to look at the character say how similar that character is to you is a good start. ;)

    Things that define a character's personality are how they react to the situations they're in or what's around them. I think that having characters react differently to the same situation, or how the interact with the same character, defines them. If charcters all get to display how different they are in the story, perhaps it's easier to spot the ones that look too much like you for comfort?
     
  6. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    The funny thing is that the character was nothing like me except for one thing - she didn't like to cook. Other that than, nope, I just didn't see it at all. Blindness, maybe in that we don't recognize personality quirks of our own even when our characters have them? Does this mean that Lucas is like Anakin or Vader or Luke :p? Or Leia? [face_batting]
     
  7. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Yeeikes . . . subconscious Mary Sues coming to get you. [face_worried]

    I don't know what to do about the Sue you don't see, other than get a good beta and hope that your self-insertion characters turn out to be *good* self-insertions ones.

    Your question sort of brings up the issue of what "self-insertion" is. Which part of yourself becomes the basis for "self-insertion?" Your physical self, apparently like Michael Stackpole/Corran Horn? Something deep that others don't necessarily recognize in you, but that you identify with? Things like mannerisms and personality quirks that may be superficial, but which people who know you recognize?

    I have a character whom I consider a borderline Mary Sue, because I identify with her and sort of wish I could be her and have her adventures. No one has ever confused her with me, however, because she and I aren't really all that much more alike than any other character I write. I just like her better than most of my OC's. So far, she hasn't seemed to offend anyone--or if she has, they haven't complained--so I guess I can consider her a virtual non-Sue, even though she does have Sueish resonances for me.

    At one point I was writing another character (different fandom, also an OC) who apparently had a lot of my mannerisms and way of speaking. Someone pointed that out to me, and I was puzzled, since I didn't identify with her at all. I actually *had* a more-or-less open Mary Sue in that story (canon Gary Stu, actually, but that's as may be), and nobody picked up on it. He and I apparently just didn't have much that seemed in common, despite the fact that I identified with him.

    I find myself once again wanting to move away from specific characteristics of Sue-ism and look at what she *does* in a story before I label a character a Sue. A lot of people have mentioned that the universe seems to warp around Mary Sue--intelligent people act stupid (allowing her to look smarter), serene people get jealous (allowing her to look cooler), and bedrock-stable people become sobbing heaps when something remotely bad happens to her (to make her look beloved, when there actually isn't enough characterization there to love). Earlier on, I also likened the "Sue effect" to a stage audience paying rapt attention to a spotlight illuminating nothing. It's the same idea, really; there's a misalignment between the reality of the Sue and the way that people react to her.

    My guess is that if you don't have that bizarre warping or mismatch quality (i.e., Obi-Wan, stable center of the saga, admitted to a psyche hospital for acute suicidality because Mary Sue has a hangnail), you're not dealing with a Mary Sue, no matter what she looks like or who she acts like.
     
  8. TheCrazyRodian

    TheCrazyRodian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Right now I feel like Ophelia is the smartest person of all time.

    I swear you take every one of my vague, half-formed thoughts right out of my head, and you put them so succinctly it hurts.

    I want to make a few semi-related comments to things that have been said, now.

    Ahhh, now here is a topic that I find particularly interesting.

    So I read Crime and Punishment the other week, again, and got the shivers during pretty much the entire last half of the book, again, because it is freaking awesome and because I get the chills when I read things that are freaking awesome.

    For those of you who have also read the book, I shall point out Raskolnikov's theory of the "extraordinary" man. Basically, he wonders if there exist certain people for whom the rules do not apply. That is, and I paraphrase, if Newton had discovered his theories, but in order to make them public, would have to kill someone, then he would have a right--an obligation, even--to commit that murder, because of the nature of his discoveries. Ordinary men are subject to the law; extraordinary ones can choose to work outside it.

    Now, despite the fact that I disagree with his theory, there are some interesting things to think about that spawn from the idea. Do there exist literary characters--or even real people--for whom the standard rules just don't apply?

    Food for thought.

    The other major theme that Crime and Punishment contains, though not nearly as overtly, is related to the sentence I quoted from Ophelia's post a few days ago. There are people who, frankly, are absolutely amazing. I know some. They're the people who you can hardly help but love, not because they are ostentatious or vainglorious, but because they are--something. I'm not sure what.

    Think about the character of Sonia in C&P--she is the central figure of her family, beloved of Raskolnikov (sort of), adored by the Siberian prisoners, admired by Dounia and Lebziatnikov and Svidrigailov, and so on--why? Because she's extraordinary. Not Raskolnikov, who kills someone to prove that he's extraordinary, that he's better than the average man; but Sonia, the longsuffering prostitute whose incorruptible goodness and compassion and faith and hope is the inspiration of everyone around her.

    Dostoevsky writes good archetypal characters (archetypical? archetypal?). It's his style. Even his characters seem to be aware of that. They're larger than life, but yet somehow so painfully and obviously human. "I didn't bow to you, but to all the suffering of humanity" is what Raskolnikov tells Sonia, and she is all the suffering of humanity. But she's also just Sofya Semyonovna, a God-fearing whore who desperately loves a cynical murderer.

    Moving to other places, though, we see the same sorts of extraordinary characters. Why does King Aragorn kneel to Frodo and Sam after the Ring is destroyed? Because Sam and Frodo are extraordinary. Not because they're perfect, but because they're good. In Alias, Sidney Bristow's character is extraordinary (NB: she's been Mary-Sued to hell over the past three or four seasons)--the people around her break rules for her, are fiercely loyal to her. Harry Potter is extraordinary, despite the fact that he's just a confused kid.

    And sure, all of these people have enemies. People who hate them. But no one who genuinely knows these characters hate them.

    I'll move on to Star Wars, then, to see if my thoughts get any clearer.

    I find it curious that Wedge Antilles is never listed as a Gary Stu. Frankly, there is no character in Star Wars who is more unwaveringly good as Wedge is. Not Luke, even, who is the ultimate hero. Not Han, not Leia, not anybody. Just think about his track record. At sixteen, he is orphaned, and singlehandedly hunts down and kills the pirates who killed his parents. He joins the Rebellion kind of as a smuggler, and ge
     
  9. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    But nearly universal respect and love for a character does not make him or her shallow or unrealistic. Sometimes, there are characters who are and ought to be larger than life. Because even though they're greater and better and more influential than any of us will ever be, they are true. And the truth is what we sympathize with, no matter where it is.
    Sometimes real people are like that as well...

    Glad to hear that we agree about Wedge. I adore the man, even when he makes mistakes - especially when he makes mistakes because it rings true. He sounds and acts real.

    And I have a whole different rant about authorial self-insertion as an inadequate criterion for judging character quality.

    Fire away!!!!
     
  10. leia_naberrie

    leia_naberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Excellent new topic, Souderwan. Although I've never written an OC, I do use EU characters very liberally. It's important to note that not only OCs can be Mary Sues. There are fan fics where even the established canon 'heroes' have been written like Mary Sues.

    To me a Mary Sue is more than self-insertion (more on that below), or super-powers or even extraordinary goodness/lovability.


    Like so many have mentioned, a Mary Sue is more than an exotic name or purple hair. From everything I've read and agree with from everyone's contributions, I think my perception of a Mary Sue is this:

    (As Eleventh_Guard stated) If other characters, especially canon characters, act in bizarre, out-of-character ways to make the plot go the way the author wants it to go for the OC, then the character is a Mary-Sue.

    As ophelia so nicely :p put it: Obi-Wan, stable center of the saga, [is] admitted to a psyche hospital for acute suicidality because Mary Sue has a hangnail. It could also, for example, apply to a situation where Obi-Wan, rather than Anakin, becomes the Jedi whom Palpatine wants to turn into a Sith. Either way, the character becomes a black hole, distorting the natural gravitational balance of the universe.


    And I have a whole different rant about authorial self-insertion as an
    inadequate criterion for judging character quality.


    I agree with this completely. A self-insertion could be the 'passive' character who 'watches' the epic characters play out their story. A self-insertion could even be the wry, cynical personae in the story whose quips bring in a degree of light-heartedness to a heavy story. Self-insertions alone do not define a character as Mary Sue.


     
  11. TheCrazyRodian

    TheCrazyRodian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Yeah right. :p I feel like I should get banned every time I post to this thread, for senseless tangential verbosity.
     
  12. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Nah, your ideas are interesting, CR. I really do want to hear what you have to say about self-insertion in a story.
     
  13. Princess_Arulmozhi

    Princess_Arulmozhi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2004
    <delurking>

    Wedge isn't a Gary Stu because the universe doesn't cater to him


    This line, in particular, stood out for me. I think it sort of defines a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, in some way - you quickly pinpoint a 'Sue' chiefly because everyone and everything is always running around her. Your OC, Diane, isn't a Mary Sue because she doesn't disturb the natural rhythm of your story. I can see how she mirrors you - but it doesn't pull me out, so it works. :) And it was the same with Ophelia's OC, Matreya (I assume it was Matreya she was talking about.). Those characters were what you might find if you stepped into the street. Sort of.

    EDIT:
    That sudden dive from the sublime to the ridiculous (or the flat-out boring) is the essence of Mary Sue. She is the whistling void at the center of the Moulin Rouge Bollywood scene.



    Bravo. Oh, how I understand Bollywood. And the whistling void.

    Dang, I really should read all the posts before I write one. Everyone's already said everything, and in a much, much better way. ;)
     
  14. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Don't you dare get banned, you CrazyRodian! You make me feel like Ophelia supposedly makes you feel. I have ideas about Gary/Mary Stus/Sues, but everyone puts them better than I can, so I get lost in the shuffle.

    Self-insetrions? I've done that three times. The first was a fic written in 1995-my first, actually. Never published to the 'net, either. A classic Gary Stu. A Starfleet pilot who becomes a Jedi, does dark Side stuff without falling, gets the girl and liberates Hapes from the Empire... man, I gotta MST3K this fic...

    Second one was a cameo in my SM/SW crossover. Nothing big there. In another series of fics, I took myself and attempted to mold myself into a anti-Gary Stu/parody, making 'myself' into a semi-loser and such. When the series continued, I actually took 'myself' and sent the OC/SI into a new direction, forging it into a true OC that happens to have my name, but is its own separate entity.

    It's fairly easy to slip into doing SI. After all, who else do you know better than yourself? And no, they don't have to be Gary Stus, either. I've done it three times and only once would be a Gary Stu.

    Oh, on a separate note, Souderwan and everyone else, you're welcome about doing the topic links. Although my head was getting dizzy after a while, going through this thread. ;)
     
  15. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Thank you for your very kind comments, CrazyRodian . . . [face_blush] and I promise not to steal thoughts out of your head too often.

    ::kicks Mephistopheles back under the desk:: Cut it *out!* This is *not.* the *time.*

    P_A wrote: it was the same with Ophelia's OC, Matreya (I assume it was Matreya she was talking about.)

    Actually, I was talking about Waqkemé Noori. (See? Nobody connects me with her. :p) I tend to keep Kemé on a pretty short leash though--she's not allowed to show up in any story where she isn't absolutely needed. "Keep out extraneous people" is a good rule of thumb for any fic, but especially for borderline Mary Sues. I do have at least one reader who likes her, however, so I put in references to her now and then.

    Matreya's a whole other ball of wax . . . she's more a Frodo-type character. She hates blasters and can barely drive, for heaven's sake . . . her application to the Star Wars universe should have been summarily rejected. :p A lot of readers seemed to like her, however--I think it's partly because she acts like an "ordinary" person would if they were stuck in her situation, and that makes her easier to identify with. She was created to fit a very precise niche in the storyline, however, and that dictated what she was like. To the extent that personal fantasy went into her character, it was unconscious. :p

    Kemé was created for a precise purpose, too, but she kind of over-ran it. I must confess I've also used her as an RPG character, which is a very bad sign from a Mary Sue diagnosis perspective.

    Dang, I really should read all the posts before I write one. Everyone's already said everything, and in a much, much better way.

    No--no, not at all! Discussions often get better when the original participants back off and quieter people who've had some time to think step in. That's why we re-start giant threads after a certain number of posts, actually.

    <C-3PO> Shutting up, sir. </C-3PO>

     
  16. ardavenport

    ardavenport Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2004
    There is nothing wrong at all with self-insertion in a story. You are supposed to write what you know; that gives your writing weight. But as Princess_Azulmozhi said, if the character does not disrupt the flow of the story, it doesn't matter if the character is derivative of the writer. That's what keeps Corran Horn from the Mary/Gary-Sue character in I, Jedi; he is part of the story; his narrative is entertaining and he keeps things going. I don't find him quite believeable, but that's just my taste; he has a lot of appealing features and he's a fun read.

    Mary/Gary-Sues are a crude form of self-insertion, the not-good kind of self-insertion. There are many ways to disrupt a story, but Mary/Gary-Sues do it by hogging the story to themselves. They take self-insertion to ridiculous levels and they are often ebellished with characteristics that the writer knows little about, making them especially weak.
     
  17. TheCrazyRodian

    TheCrazyRodian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2004
    [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]

    So that's where he goes when he's not with me.
     
  18. leia_naberrie

    leia_naberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2002
    In all fairness, I won't say that all Mary Sues are self-insertion, any more than all self-insertions are Mary Sues. I could write a fan fiction where a tall, blonde blue-eyes Princess, who happens to be long-lost daugher of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and is really the Chosen One of prophecy not Anakin (because when the Jedi realized the Chosen One was a girl, they altered it and all that sexism stuff), and when she's twelve, she's really the one that kills the Emperor - with her mind, two hundred parsecs away - and she grows up to marry first Luke, then Han (when Luke dies, and Leia finally gives Han up to this Mary Sue Kenobi because after all, even Leia realizes that MSK would be a better wife than her, Leia, and anyway, Han loves MSK not Leia), then all the Solo children one after the other as they grow up.

    Now, I am neither tall, blonde, related to Kenobi (or anyone famous as a matter of fact), powerful, particularly intelligent, or the many-husbands kind. But that could be 'my' Mary Sue without it being 'my' self-insertion.

    Like someone said - the laws of the universe bend to accomodate this character.

    Strangely enough, OCs get the shaft a lot for being Mary Sues but I've read stories starring OCs that are not Mary Sues. Sean Stewart's 'Whie' in Dark Rendezvous could so easily have been an OC - he comes from a family with delusions and grandeur, and he's the 'next level' in Force-strength down from Anakin. But he doesn't go Super-Jedi at the end of the day and save the world. He's rescued by a couple of droids, and finally, by the 'Big Guns' - Kenobi and Skywalker, in the end. Scout could have been a Mary Sue but Sean Stewart wrote her too lovable, too much of the underdog for you not to want to root for her. In fanfiction, I think of the cast of all geo3's OC - the little Bale, Poulin the Jedi, and even V'ar. As integral as they are to the story, they don't 'bend' the rules in anyway, or diminish the importance or the limelight from the main characters.

    At the same time, I've read a lot of EU and fan fiction where canon characters are written as Mary Sues. Obi-Wan Kenobi in Matt Stover's book comes to mind almost immediately. In fact, it's this discussion that has really helped me put a finger on what bothered me so much about that novelization. The rules of the GFFA are bent to best fit Obi-Wan's incarnation in the RotS novelization - Several times, Obi-Wan is referred to as the perfect (red flags) Jedi by even people outside the Order - a title that on its own is antithesis to what the Jedi stand for. (No one Jedi as superior to any of the others, etc.) Other characters bend over backwards for him e.g. Padme Amidala, who barely knows him, suddenly regards him as the 'one Jedi she can trust'. There's a constant referrence to a super-connection to the Force, previously unheard of in any of the 6 movies, that parallels and even supercedes Anakin (the Chosen One). The less savoury aspects of his nature - his inability to think independently of the Council (even when he privately considers them in error), his discomfort with the truth, with natural human affection, are either glossed over or removed completely. It's a very 'alien' Obi-Wan that we see in the book, and because of the way the natural gravity of the GFFA is distorted to accomodate him, the whole story becomes very alien as a whole.


    Thanks, Souderwan, for starting this. It's a lesson to us all - even original fic writers.


     
  19. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    LN - I won't go into how many ways I disagree with your take on Stover and his portrayal of Kenobi - that alone would be a novel, maybe a trilogy. I don't see him as a Mary Sue in any of the novelizations. Fanfic, yes, I've seen him and many others as Mary Sues (Anakin and Yoda especially) and, if my friends do it, I call them on it. But the novels, no. But that discussion really is for a different thread and you are entitled to your opinion. I just truly, deeply disagree with you.


    So we are talking really about two kinds of Mary Sues - the superhuman, unbelievable kind - and the author self-insertion kind (which really isn't necessarily a Mary Sue but could be). I honestly wish that the author self-insertion was not always labeled as a MS. It makes it difficult sometimes to understand wny people get so upset about it.

    Oh, and P_A, the only OC that is similar to me isn't the wife, it's the Padawan. :p But that's another thread as well...
     
  20. Noelie

    Noelie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2005
    So we are talking really about two kinds of Mary Sues - the superhuman, unbelievable kind - and the author self-insertion kind (which really isn't necessarily a Mary Sue but could be). I honestly wish that the author self-insertion was not always labeled as a MS. It makes it difficult sometimes to understand wny people get so upset about it

    You make a good point. You have even done a couple of stories on you own web page to augment someone's adorable self-insertion, that in no way, either by your treatment or hers do I see as the dreaded "Mary Sue".

    The fact is even if someone had their own idea and universe anyone at any time can come along and deprecate their work by the charge of "Mary Sue or Gary Stu", and is that right or fair? I even wonder on the boards with OC's how fair it is, although I still have a hard time with what you mention as other writers treatment of the so-called Cannon characters.
     
  21. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Noelie, I'm slightly confused by what you said in the second part but if I read it correctly, then sometimes the profic writers do tend to make canon characters rather omnipotent. I remember one series where the Jedi powers grew to such an extent that they could push entire battleships around (almost godlike). I believe that Zahn tried to bring the Jedi powers back into a more balanced approach in his second series where Luke stopped using his powers all the time to fix everything. But different authors will approach the Jedi Force thing differently.

    I tend to like my Jedi (either reading stories or writing them) to have powers that will have consequences so that they have to be judicious in their use. A Mary Sue will have no consequences except in the adoration of her fans.

     
  22. Eleventh_Guard

    Eleventh_Guard Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2005
    I sometimes worry that the hatred of Mary Sues will make all OCs look "suspicious," so to speak. It's a shame that it's doubly difficult to write a character in the 13-25 age range, especially of one's own gender, because those seem like automatic strikes. And it's not because there's anything wrong with it, but because those who DO write total wish-fulfillment stories without much thought to plot or characterization tend to make teenaged or young adult characters of their own gender with certain other characteristics.

    You (general you) can have a powerful 18-year-old Jedi who's beautiful and sleeping with (insert choice character here) and have her not be a Sue... but it's difficult, and nearly impossible to establish right off the bat that she isn't a Sue and thus keep readers. If there wasn't so much Sue sludge (more on FFN and other archives than here, I've noticed) these wouldn't be red flags.

    These don't make Sues. There's much more to it than that. But many readers will ASSUME that the character is a Sue and one risks losing readers even if she is shown later to be a balanced OC.
     
  23. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    I got called on giving one of my OCs violet eyes. So people not knowing my other work might consider that she was a Mary Sue. I think the readers have to be aware that not all OCs are Mary Sues and, if it's obvious within the first post that the OC is not a MS, then you are less likely to lose readers.

    Eleventh_Guard, however, your description of the non-MS would probably send up red flags almost immediately. I think the writer could get around that if the OC had flaws and they were pretty obvious in the introduction of the character.... maybe. :p
     
  24. LLL

    LLL Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2000
    [face_hypnotized]

    Great discussion, everybody.
     
  25. TheCrazyRodian

    TheCrazyRodian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2004
    I think the point of avoiding Mary Sues/Gary Stus is to make your characters like real people. I mean, sure, none of us have telekinesis (no matter how many times a day I pray for God to give it to me), and none of us fly X-wing fighters for a living (oh how I wish!), but the reason we are so drawn to characters in the GFFA is because they are true. When Leia shouts "I love you!" to Han as he's about to get frozen, who among us didn't get a little teary at his sad "I know"?

    It's tricky, I know, to write characters believably in such a fantastical universe, but not overly so. It just means that rather than just considering what a character does and says, you must consider why that character does or says it. That goes for both OCs and established characters, too. And then you have to consider what a character doesn't say or do, and why. And then there's when, which is a tragically overlooked detail in writing.

    But it's not enough to just plan out a character and map out his personality and then all of a sudden you've got everything handled. No. People aren't like that, no matter how predictable or consistent they seem to be. You've got to let your characters be alive. You have to let them make mistakes, errors in judgment, little inconsistencies and quirks and contradictions, because that's what real people do. Don't force your character into a simple, preconceived mold and keep him there in a strait jacket. Plan him out, yes, but don't stereotype him.

    And that's where most Mary Sue characters come in: stereotypes. You've got your brash pilot, rough around the edges but with a heart of gold, who does nothing but make sarcastic quips, shoot bad guys, and kiss the pretty girls. You've got your fiery female, quick to lose her temper and tough as nails, but who will melt into a fragile caricature of femininity at a scoundrel's smile. You've got your supposedly unimportant guy from a backwater planet, who finds out that his heritage is extraordinary, his power is immense, and his role is to be savior of the galaxy.

    Now hold on one second, you say. I just described Han, Leia, and Luke. Didn't I?

    Yes. And no. Because while Han is, indeed, the kindhearted scoundrel, he is so much more than that. He is a man whose callous cynicism gets threatened by his sense of honor and loyalty. He is a man who loves, and hurts because of it. He is loud and arrogant and jaded and selfish and loyal and brave and gentle and compassionate all at the same time. He's a paradox, a contradiction--in short, he's human. He defies the role we assign to him, just as much as he defines it.

    Making an original character is more than just picking a bunch of features and flaws to balance it all out, then. It's about writing a real person who isn't, in fact, real. You can put all the flaws you want into a character, and he might still be a Gary Stu. Or maybe I'm using the term Gary Stu when I actually mean "bad character."

    Writing a believable character, though, is kind of tricky. The best advice I can give to anyone is to spend a lot--and I mean a lot--of time watching and listening to people. Seriously. If you're not already a people-watcher, then start to become one. See what people do, and what they say, but also pay attention to when they do it. Take notice of things like intonation and body language. It's amazing how finely tuned our senses are to things that are very subtle. A millimeter difference in smile width can change a person's expression from happy to melancholy.

    So look for things like that. If nothing else, it can make you more sensitive to the moods of people close to you. And that may save you a lot of unexpected stress.

    When you write your OC, then, you have more than just your own habits and phrasings and emotional responses to draw on. True, the vast majority of your writing will end up being, in a lot of ways, particular to you. That's why I don't think a term like "self-insertion" should be thrown around with such distaste. By definition, you can only write what you know. The trick
     
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