Discussion The Parthenon - New Topic *Ghostwriters*

SCENE: The Parthenon, Athens

TIME: Night

One by one the uplights of the Parthenon wink out, leaving the Acropolis in utter darkness.

Music erupts across the evening sky. It?s the synthesized sounds of ?Are You Ready For This??

Spotlights whip through the standing pillars, illuminating two figures emerging from the ancient ruins. They walk to the front amid cheers and fanfare from the expectant crowd. After a few energetic waves the music diminishes.

T?Keira Lea (TKL): Welcome to the second season of The Parthenon.

*cheers*

TKL: I?m Pericles and this is Phidi-

*Art_of_War (AoW) clears throat and leans in toward TKL*

AoW: I?m Pericles and you?re Phidias.

*TKL blushes*

TKL: Oh? Right. How silly of me. As I was saying, I?m Pericles and this is Phidias.

AoW: *points to self* Pericles *points to co-host* Phidias.

TKL: That?s what I said. *pauses when the crowd chuckles* Isn?t it?

*AoW pats TKL on the back*

AoW: Of course you did. As my cohost said, I?m Pericles and this is Phidias. We?re very excited to bring you the second season of The Parthenon. This new installment will be packed with everything you have come to know and love from the original season, along with the occasional new twist. We have topics galore and mind-bending discussions planned for the thinking writer like you.

*cheers*

TKL: On top of that, we have a slew of special guests scheduled, each with an exciting spin for those serious about all things fanfic.

*cheers*

TKL: So let?s get started!



The Mission Statement

We think the founder of this thread said it best.

The Ground Rules:

1. This is not a social thread ? there are already enough of those.


2. This is not a fanboy/fangirl thread. As such, please avoid drooling over favorite characters here.


3. Be respectful of one another. People interpret Star Wars in many different ways. No one has a stranglehold on the ?right? answer.


4. If you decide to mention a specific fanfiction here in support of an argument, please take the time to provide a link to the story. Pimping of fics, however, is highly discouraged.

 

Current Topic

Genre Writing

Do different genres, in order to be considered top tier, require a certain style of writing? For example, does good romance necessitate a narrative that plunges in multiple perspectives? Do thriller stories only work so long as the writer steps lightly on introspection and sticks tightly to pacing and plot? Can good horror stories exist without a strong focus on environmental cues?

Or does genre even have a place in the discussion of the differing techniques used by writers to create an emotionally rewarding story?

Discuss.

 

Upcoming Topics

• Symbology ? what exactly does it mean?

 

Past Topics

What does it mean to bring balance to the Force?

How important are the Writing 'Rules'?

How do you write the Dark Side of the Force?

Writing Romance: A/P vs. H/L

What do you think of the Physics of Star Wars?

Fun! Are you a SW geek?

What is your writing style?

Sacrifices you make to write.

The Limits of AU.

What scares you?

Do you assume your readers know GFFA?

Beginning your story.

The Jedi and Sex.

The Master/Padawan relationship.

FREE FOR ALL!!

Quiz: Are You Addicted to FanFic?

Writing an Ending.

Holidays in the GFFA.

Writing Action!

Writing Fight Sequences!

The Importance of Being Earnest: Writing reviews.

I Challenge You! Where do they belong?

Et tu, Brute? Writing Death Scenes.

Point of View Workshop. Hosted by T?Kiera_Lea

The Truly Great Stories.

Quiz: What Kind of Writer Should You Be?

Your Favorite SW Character.

What constitutes "Cannon"?

Who put the canon in my fanon?

Romance Workshop hosted by LadyPadme

 

*****Reserved*****

 

*****Reserved*****

 

I find that I try to keep my things as true to the canon as possible, but certain fanfic writers absolutely inspire me because they have so much ingenuity put into them just for the sake of the writing. For example, the character Sache Organa that JediGaladriel wove into her stories captivated me that I felt slightly cheated when I realized it was fanon, not canon. I prefer a mix of the two.

Edit:

Forgot to answer the last question. When I intentionally use something from another person's stuff, I'll try to ask permission for it or not use it at all until I can be sure of why I want to use it for that particular purpose. When I do it unintentionally, I try to make my apology sincere and bring the brilliance of that other author into light on the thread.

 

Fanfic influences me a lot more than canon nowadays. I don't really read SW novels anymore and... well, the NJO...

Sometimes I do get fanon and canon confused. Like in Star Trek. Fanon is that SPock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet and the only half-human/half-Vulcan, but neither of those were stated in the Original Series! Same in Star Wars. Quite easy, especially some incredibly well-written Before or Saga OC.

I'm not sure I have stepped on anyone's toes yet. If I have, please forgive me!

Oh, yeah. Awesome setup here. Did you want a link to my crossover workshop?

 

I think I might actually join in the discussion this time rather than serially lurking . . . although lurking did prove most informative and very interesting

To my own knowledge I've only hit that kind of snag once, and that was over the vexed question of Xanatos' surname. I'd seen it all over FanFic as 'deCrion', which is a logical enough moniker considering his father's name was Crion, and so assumed it was canon.

It later emerged that, canonically, he's never given one. DeCrion was the creation of one of the fanficcers here, but has been used by plenty of other people and is fairly solid fanon. In that case, when I found out, I apologised and asked nicely if I could keep using the name. Happily the creator didn't mind

A medium-to-minor character's surname is a pretty small thing, though; it's not as if the character of Xanatos himself is original. I've never accidentally used someone else's OC . . . as far as I know

On the question of influence, I think fanon is much more of a knowledge-base than anything else. I'm not conversant with actual EU, so my knowledge of the EU is almost entirely based on fanfic. For the occasions when I've written EU characters, their characterisation has been derived from fanfic I've read. The thing is, in fanfic you can't always tell if detail X has been taken from canon or dreamt up by the author. It's entirely possible that I've accidentally appropriated details about canon characters that aren't strictly canon themselves.

I think for those of us who learnt most of what we know about the EU from fanfic, there's always going to be a blur between fanon and canon. Some areas are blurrier than others - birthplaces and other minor details, timescales, and 'ships being among the trickier ones.

 

Great start, everyone!

And a new topic to put on the list - do you reread your posts to make sure TFN doesn't goof them up? Kidding, but I just realized the server thought there was some cursing in the opening post and **** things out

Just a reminder, if you have a topic or would like to host a workshop please either PM the Parthenon Host sock. If the sock is slow to respond remember that it's a Host Sock and go straight for your current hosts - Art_of_War and TKeira_Lea

~TKL for the Parthenon

 

I knew you two were perfect for this job!! Wow!! Amazing intro! Love it! Great new topic, too! I'll have to hold off on my two cents until I have some time but I just wanted to stop by and say "Great job TKL and AoW!!!"


Side note: Superb choice on the sock name!!

 

Thanks, Souderwan!

Glad to see your self-imposed ban is slipping

I have some ideas for this topic but I'm waiting to see where people take it. Great examples so far.

 

I tend to use books to influence my writing style although I must admit that some people's stories here are so glorious that I try to emulate their style without success.

Or are you asking about story subject matter? Fanfic doesn't influence me too much other than to groan when someone else has taken what I thought was a great idea and would someday work on and written it themselves. LOL.

I do try to stay away from other people's ideas. If someone has dealt with an issue that I would have liked to write about, I go on to something else.

As for canon/fanon, sometimes that can be confusing. I read all of the EU books and a lot of stories here and elsewhere and it can merge into one big universe at times. There may be instances where I've thought it was canon but found out later that it was not but it's not been a big problem.

Stepping on someone else's toes inadvertantly - no one's ever told me that I've done that so I can't say for sure. I would certainly apologize if it were the case. If I were accused of it and I didn't believe it to be true, I'd stand my ground, however. After all, there are lots of stories out there with similar plotlines/characters/ideas.

Interesting first topic.

Okay, I know who Pericles was. Was Phidias the scuplturer/designer of the Partenon? I was there a few weeks ago. Stunning work even in its ruined state.

 

Fanfiction shows me a wealth of possibilities that could happen at any point canon leaves off. I can say that I've never gotten fanfic and canon mixed up, mainly because whenever I write something happening during a certain book, or in between books, I simply have the book right in front of me for refernce.
There have been a few times I have used a small thing, like someone visiting a medical bay before going somewhere else, or a general chain of events, that I might have seen in another fanfic. Even if I hadn't intentionally done it, there are so many fanfics out there, it would seem that way.

 

I hope no-one minds me joining the discussion...

How does fanfic influence your writing as compared to canon?

Well, canon provides the basic foundation for all fanfic, which at least for my POV is the fundamental distinction. Perhaps my 'fic has a more complex relationship with canon than some people's - but that's a matter of style, rather than quality, and also, I'd argue, a matter of degree rather than sharp distinction: however you engage with Star Wars, I don't think you can get away from the fact that it's Star Wars: Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, lightsabers, X-wings, the Death Star, and Darth Vader.

Even the best fanfic doesn't have the same effect, except as a yardstick of wider fan opinion.

Speaking for myself, the bulk of what I write falls into two categories, both of which require a lot of choreography with canon:

1.) 'Fic that, for one reason or another, pushes the coherence of the canon storyline to its limits (for instance, having Jag and Jaina married between Star by Star and Conquest, or writing Kunra as a revived and rebuilt Anakin Solo). To do that sort of thing, you really have to know the limits of what you can get away with, in terms of the details of the canon plot and characterization - and even where you don't make gaffes (believe me I have!!) you still run the risk of irritating or disillusioning readers who don't get what they expect...

2.) AU, where canon provides a baseline against which you can vary the construction of characters and plot, and also expectations that the reader will be bringing to the 'fic.

Given that the overall coherence of canon is part of what enables it to be used in this way, the first question is whether "fanfic" as a cohesive whole can be compared/contrasted with it directly: and I think the answer is 'no'. The only general "fanfic" trends are the most generally zeitgeisty things like the idea of Lumiya as a post-NJO villain, or back in the day, Mara/Luke 'shippage: these have no clear, specific locus within 'fic, have a life in wider fan discussion, and tend to find their way into pro-'fic anyway.

But it becomes easier to find influences if there's a more developed and coherent subgenre: at the loose end, for instance, I borrowed Domain Saa from YodaKenobi within the shared context of Anakin Solo-related Yuuzhan Vong stuff; or to take a clearer example, if I write Mara-and-Anakin stuff, there's probably at least a low-level awareness of the possibilities explored by people like Lonewolf89 and Kidan...

I also suspect that JDH3's attempt to keep most of his 'fic together in a single canon-compliant continuity has influenced me... but the major "fanfic" influence on me, as I'm sure is the case with other writers, is probably my own fanfic: I develop themes within my own stories, and short or abandonned 'fics are often the equivalent of preparatory sketches for larger compositions, working out what the lines of something I'm trying to say are...

[cont'd]

 

Do you ever get confused between canon and fanon?

I have a vague idea I may have brain-farted along these lines before, but I can't think of any instance where I've seriously thought that something in fanfic was part of the canon story.

On the other hand, there are definately some things from fanfic that I like enough that they could be considered part of my "personal canon": for instance,
Syal Fel's 'past history' with Thrawn from Hitchhiker, Admiral Daala's first name of Jelila from Samidzat...

And pretty much anything in Tahi's The Mantrusian Affair and Many Happy Returns: I was surprised rereading Conquest recently to realise that most of the development of Remis Vehn and Qorl as a team came from MHR and JDH3's stories...


What happens when you unintentionally do and step on another fanficcer's toes?

I don't think I ever have - not knowingly, at any rate. If it was pointed out to me that I was doing something similar, I'd probably apologize, though...

And I've written far too much already...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

How does fanfic influence your writing as compared to canon?

I say, "Doh! That's a good idea! Wish I'd thought of it."

Canon has a lot of conflicting information, so it's hard to keep everything straight. There's the obvious problem that canon doesn't provide as much information in the first place as we'd like, and many authors have come up with an amazing amount of detail. Which leads to...

Do you ever get confused between canon and fanon?

Oh, sure. For things like, how does the Jedi Temple training process work. Again, some authors are so good at creating backstories that I often find myself referring to their fics for info when official SW sources don't have much to say. Plus, some people fit their OCs into canon scenes so seamlessly that you can't tell the difference between canon and fanon.

What happens when you unintentionally do and step on another fanficcer's toes?

The only time I ever really worried about this was when I wanted to use the last name "deCrion." I PMed one author, who told me she got it from someone else, and everything was okayed from there. I use this as a rule - if I'm not sure whether the detail or character is fanon or canon, I PM the author in whose story I first saw it.

edit: Diane, I believe Phidias is the sculptor who did the giganamous statues of Athena in the Parthenon and the gold Zeus at Olympia (not actually made out of gold, but plated or painted, I think). Sadly, both are gone now.

 

This is a really interesting question for authors who don't include the EU in their personal definition of "canon," especially if their focus is on the prequels. (Translation = "me.")

To put the best spin on the situation possible, there are a lot of prequel sections that are sort of . . . blank. One infamous example is the question of what, exactly, we're supposed to get out of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's relationship in TPM, other than the fact that Qui-Gon's death finally provided Ewan McGregor with an excuse to emote. All was supposed to be revealed when the 6 film saga was complete and viewed in sequence--but it is, and I have, and I still don't get it.

For enlightenment I've got some snippets of GL commentary, some educated guesses based on what his stated influences were--and I've got fanfic and fan analysis. So basically, fanon is my canon. It's what fills up the blank places in the films and gives them meaning. Especially right after each new film came out, I paid very close attention to what fans were saying and writing about characters and relationships, and I watched as differing "schools" of thought seemed to coalesce. I listened to what I thought were the best arguments for each fanon opinion, and used those to cobble together my personal version of the Star Wars universe.

Fan opinion actually caused me to totally revise my view of Anakin Skywalker's character after AOTC. An "Attack of the Clones" forum thread called "Anakin's Profoundly Human Frailty" (now locked and dusty on an inactive forum, but still definitely worth a read) made me realize that I had completely misinterpreted his character. This resulted in a total scrapping of both the opening chapter of my epic and much of its outline. My original idea for the fic fits perfectly within "canon"--in fact, it was pretty similar to what I saw when I scanned the beginning of "Rogue Planet." However, the fans posting in the AOTC thread succeeded in convincing me that my earlier view of Anakin was wrong. I re-wrote him, and he promptly stole the show from Obi-Wan, who was supposed to be the main focus of the story. My epic universe was (and is) borderline AU anyway, and originally my characterization of Anakin was one of the main things that set the story apart from "real canon." However, I was stunned to see "my" character re-recated onscreen almost exactly in RotS. Fanon--and not-widely accepted fanon at that--had retroactively become canon. I'd love to take the credit for this, but the reality is that I copied slavishly from a handful of posts by fans like Falls_The_Shadow, The _Abstract, and PadmeLeiaJaina. Among the dozens of theories on what Anakin was "really like" that appeared in the weeks after AOTC was released, they had the most direct line into the head of GL--or Hayden Christensen, or both. I don't know.

This is a major reason why I take fanon--even "crack fanon" seriously, if an author can provide good enough support for his/her opinion.

Essentially all my PT characterizations are fleshed out with fanon. I don't necessarily accept specifics, such as names that don't appear in the films and the presence of particular OC's, but if I read enough fics that present Padmé as having characteristics X through Z, I'll adopt them, if they seem to make sense for that character.

This is also true when I actually have a very good idea of what a character is like from film canon, and then suddenly run across an alternate reading of him/her among fans. I saw the lackluster chemistry between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM as the result of either a bad casting or a bad directing decision--it never occurred to me that the two characters just kind of never hit it off to begin with. Actually, I still think that way, but I did incorporate a harder edge into both characters because of this fanon "alternate reading." Are my portrayals of these characters "right?" Who knows--we're not going to get another film with them i

 

Wow I browse another site for one minute and come back to see this up! Very nice job!

 

I was an avid lurker of the previous thread, and I'm glad to see it back up! Great introduction and I love the starter topic.

How does fanfic influence your writing as compared to canon?

I'd say that canon influences my writing more for the hard facts - like this battle happened at this time, and character x was here around that time and before character y, and died at this time. But fanfic influences me in terms of the extras, like charecter descriptions (ex: "brandy brown") or the way people write a charecter.

Do you ever get confused between canon and fanon?

All the time. Because certain things have become so accepted in fanon, and not everyone knows where it originated from, that it makes it seem like canon.

As for the last question... I don't think I've stepped on anyone's toes yet. I did borrow someone else's style for a poem I wrote a few months ago but she didn't seem to mind.

Edit (hours later): I didn't think my spelling was that bad...

 

It?s really great to see this thread back up and what a fine topic to start with.

I have to admit that a lot of my impressions of Star Wars characters were formed by fan fiction and fandom opinion in general. Because of a rather peculiar situation, the only Star Wars film I watched for almost a year was ?Attack of the Clones? (the film that got me hooked into the fandom). I was fully into the Harry Potter fandom then, so it was easy enough for me to find the Star Wars fan fiction sites and fandom communities. In the absence of the films, and the licensed fan fiction , the fan fiction and the fandom discussions were my manna.

Works by authors like JediGaladriel, ami-padme, Meredith Brownen Mallory, marnie and selenak, formed a lot of the impressions I have of the main characters. Some of those golden-oldies formed personality profiles of the characters that were as good as canon to me ? and like ophelia mentioned ? most of those personality profiles were proved irrevocably by the time the last movie came out.

Apart from personality profiles, I?ve also borrowed character histories from other fan writers. A lot of my ideas of Dooku are based on Marnie?s work ? and although Jude Watson, and some computer games certainly went out of her way to retcon most of them I still take Marnie?s ?Broken?, ?Heritage?, and ?Coming Home? series as the definitive ?cannon? of the Yoda/Qui-Gon/Dooku dynamic. Thule? Who?

Whenever I use a fan fiction situation, I always make sure to credit the writer. I once wrote a Beru/Anakin Tatooine story that was based on a Beru/Padmé Tatooine story that Meredith Brownen Mallory wrote. And I still ?think? that Beru and Padmé going to bury the dead bodies of the Tuskens is something that actually happened. Then whenever Anakin has one of his brushes with the Dark Side, I?ve written it as actually speaking to him ? and with Padmé?s voice ? something that Meredith Brownen Mallory uses a lot in her stories of Anakin?s adolescence.

I?ve never written an Inter-trilogy Leia/Vader story, but if I ever do ? there?re going to have the relationship that was established by Fernwithy?s in Father?s Heart.

Then there are subtler ways fanon bleeds into my stories. Never say never, but it would be a cold day in Hell before you see a certain Jedi Master Thule anywhere near my beloved Dooku.


edit: More links. Plus, it also occured to me that I've always thought Bail Organa as in love with Padmé because of Meredith B Mallory's writing.

 

Thanks, Jade, about Phidias. I've been too lazy to google him.

And leia_naberrie has reminded me of one person that did influence how I perceive the SW universe. marnie, for me, defined a young Qui-Gon in her Coming Home series. Absolutely glorious work. The dynamics of Yoda/Qui-Gon/Dooku was stunning, beautifully balanced and logical. If there is anyone whose work I'd love to be compared with, it would be marnie. Unfortunately, she doesn't write SW any more. I also thought her Broken Ones story (unfinished and on her own website) was a very adult look at the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan dynamic.

 

Just some FYI

Pericles was an Athenian statesman and one of its most popular leaders. He instituted numerous reforms in Athens that advanced it as a democratic state. Officials were paid by the government and their office made available to most citizens. On the flip side, he limited citizen to those who were born only to two Athenians. In the years of peace he brokered with Sparta, Pericles developed the arts within Athens. In that time, the Parthenon was constructed on the Acropolis.

Phidias was considered one of Greece?s greatest sculptors. His most famed works include the Athena Parthenos at Athens and the Zeus in the temple of Olympia. The Athena was dedicated in the Parthenon and considered the primary treasure of Athens. This sculpture was destroyed but is preserved on coins and in several copies. The Zeus is considered one of the Seven Wonders of the World. During Pericles? reign, the Parthenon sculptures were built under Phidias? watchful eye by pupils and assistants.

~ from the Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia


This is why I kept wanting to be Pericles. My sculpture usually looks more like blobs. Instead of being one of the Wonders of the World, it?s more like I wonder what she was thinking.

---

[b]Ish:[/b] First reply. You go, girl!

[i]For example, the character Sache Organa that JediGaladriel wove into her stories captivated me that I felt slightly cheated when I realized it was fanon, not canon. I prefer a mix of the two. [/i]

I?ve experienced that. Getting to know a character in fanfic can lead to shocks when you pull out a profic book. This is true with some of the lesser characters because the core traits aren?t as well defined.

[b]Striker:[/b] [i]Fanfic influences me a lot more than canon nowadays. I don't really read SW novels anymore and... well, the NJO... [/i]

And this is exactly the type of feedback that is interesting. I think later we see replies where people only take their clues from the movies, so it wouldn?t be hard to develop divergent characters with the same name simply because the source material is so different

[i]Oh, yeah. Awesome setup here. Did you want a link to my crossover workshop? [/i]

Please send that along and I?ll add it to the list. Thanks.

[b]JediNemesis:[/b] [i] I think I might actually join in the discussion this time rather than serially lurking . . . although lurking did prove most informative and very interesting [/i]

I see we?ve popped out a few lurkers. I love it :x

[i]To my own knowledge I've only hit that kind of snag once, and that was over the vexed question of Xanatos' surname. I'd seen it all over FanFic as 'deCrion', which is a logical enough moniker considering his father's name was Crion, and so assumed it was canon.

It later emerged that, canonically, he's never given one. DeCrion was the creation of one of the fanficcers here, but has been used by plenty of other people and is fairly solid fanon. In that case, when I found out, I apologised and asked nicely if I could keep using the name. Happily the creator didn't mind [/i]

You see I never knew that. I thought deCrion was his last name. So in essence deCrion is fanon :O Do you know who was the originating writer?

[b]dianethx:[/b] [i] Or are you asking about story subject matter?[/i]

However. Subject matter, characterization, last names ;)

[i] Fanfic doesn't influence me too much other than to groan when someone else has taken what I thought was a great idea and would someday work on and written it themselves. LOL.

I do try to stay away from other people's ideas. If someone has dealt with an issue that I would have liked to write about, I go on to something else. [/i]

Okay I find that interesting because it can be easy to develop similar story ideas. I honestly enjoy similar ideas explored by different people. You end up getting more texture, to really see how each person thinks. I honestly don?t see a story and go, Hey so

 

It's fine with other writers. In fact, I love how others look at the same scenerios and weave their own ideas into them. It's just that I write so slowly that I want mine to be as different as possible from everyone else's (a nice idea but I don't always succeed). I love it when my readers say that they'd never thought of X,Y or Z... Usually why I write AU over canon.

Thanks for the Pericles/Phidias info. I've been to both the Parthenon and the Temple of Zeus at Olympus - aweinspiring even when seen even in ruins. What they must have been like when new is just mind-boggling.