Saga The People vs George Lucas

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    The PT actually looks a lot like French s-f comics going all the way back to the 1960's, that might be why the French accept the films more easily. And the French dubs are wonderful, in some cases, the French performances are better than the English ones...
  2. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    It's only a few intellectual critics, like Pierre Berthomieu (Positif) and people close to him, who really praised TPM. I guess they are the ones who appear in the DVD. But I don't think there's much more about this in the documentary than what Darth_Nub has mentioned, save maybe for bonuses.

    I bought and went through the book "Le Rebelle et l'Empereur" by Berthomieu and young film critics, which deals with the SW saga as a whole and features in depth analysisis, but there's nothing specific to the PT and TPM and why they like it. It's rather synthetic and very analytical and intellectual. The best you can find is Berthomieu's review of TPM in Positif (I posted a translated summary in topic "TPM a critical darling in France ?" on page 8 of PT board).

    The mainstream critics and media reception in France were actually pretty low on TPM, just as in the US, though not as much overwhelming of course.
  3. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I was born and bred in Ireland and I live here still. The Irish go to the cinema more than any other country in Europe (in terms of percentage of population). It's fair to say we love movies. But we're not like some American audiences. We laugh at a good joke but we don't cheer and holler throughout the movie and we don't applaud the film at the end. The end credits roll and we just walk out, talking about the film yes but not giving ovations.

    Why do I bring this up? Well, my abiding memory of going to see TPM is that when the film ended it got a standing ovation. I was 14 at the time and I'd never seen anything like it. It didn't happen with Jurassic Park, it didn't happen with Titanic. But when the final iris out into credits appeared, there was a huge round of applause. Keep in mind that this was well over a month after the US release (TPM had a staggered release for some unfathomable reason) and the negativity had started to appear in reviews and online. I went to see TPM three times in that opening week (I'd have gone every day but I couldn't afford it) and all three times, the film got an ovation.

    For all the negative comments that have surrounded that film in the weeks, months and years that have followed, what I remember most is sitting in a crowded cinema with an audience that like myself, enjoyed the hell out of the film.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    It's only a few intellectual critics, like Pierre Berthomieu (Positif) and people close to him, who really praised TPM.

    I recall that Roger Ebert had praised the hell out of TPM. The same Ebert who trashed AOTC. In fact, a lot of people - critics and moviegoers - have praised TPM. But their voices were drowned by the bashers.


    Are we now supposed to accept that the PT was terrible, because "a few intellectuals and the French liked it"?
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Generally speaking, we don't applaud the film at the end either. It really depends on the film.

    And that - cross-referenced with PT backlash timing - tells you everything you need to know about Roger Ebert.
  6. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Not necessarily. I myself praised the hell out of TPM while trashing AOTC, and public opinion was not at all elemental to this. Simple truth: I considered Episode II the inferior film.

    I will say this, however: Ebert's ROTS review (3 1/2 stars) is one of the strangest "positive" notices I've read, its emphasis more on perceived flaws than virtues.
  7. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Oddly enough, I was given this movie for Christmas. I plan to take the receipt and exchange it for an anime or something.
  8. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    It's about two interview grabs, & as I mentioned, I'm not sure if they're meant to be serious or not. Even if they were, I took the context to be somewhat satirical - heaps of grabs about how much Jar-Jar sucks, then suddenly some deep, intellectual analysis about the deeper meaning of the character from some intense guys speaking in French, followed by more hate.

    I hate Jar-Jar as much as anyone, I may have taken this 'other side of the argument' as parody, simply out of an inability to acknowledge that the character as presented in the final film could have have any merit whatsoever.

    Which he doesn't. TPM novel, yes. TPM film, no.

    Anyway, there's no further development on the whole "French film critics appreciated TPM more than the rest of the world" idea in the doco.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Even if one assumes Episode II to be the inferior film, I don't think the difference in quality is large enough to really justify the gradient between "praised the hell out of" and "trashed". Anyone who "praised the hell out of" TPM must have given the film a pass for its various weaknesses, because it's surely not without flaw. Why doesn't AOTC deserve similar forbearance?
  10. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    The Phantom Menace is not without its flaws, certainly, but I felt they were offset by infectious whimsy and wonder, a deft balance between practical and CGI effects, and a strong emotional anchor in Liam Neeson. It was severely disappointing to see these qualities supplanted in AOTC by a dour tone, CGI overload, and a dearth of sympathetic characters.

    My comparison: TPM is a beauty of a SW movie sadly marred by missteps, while AOTC is a failure made intriguing by sporadic glimmers of inspiration.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As another example, I'm also reminded of Harry Knowles of AICN fame. In the wake of TPM he proclaimed effusively his "wuv" for Jar Jar. A few years later, along comes AOTC, and Jar Jar gets a tiny fraction of the screen time that he ate up in the previous film.

    Knowles' reaction to Jar Jar's behavior this time around? APOPLECTIC RAGE.

    There's a story there, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the TPM backlash.
  12. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I agree, although I think AOTC's failure is largely due to its being somewhat underwritten. Then again, the tone of certain AOTC moments captures exactly the mood I was expecting from the PT as a whole - largely in the Obi-Wan investigation. Didn't save it overall, unfortunately. Desperately missed the gravity of the sort of character that Liam Neeson brought to TPM (which Ewan McGregor did manage to bring to ROTS).
  13. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Of course not. Critics only express their own point of view.

    I was speaking about the media reaction in France here, showing Berthomieu and his likes were rather isolated.

    Anyway the general media reception (magazines, newspapers, TV) once the film came out was disappointment, except for some rare voices like Ebert in the US for instance.

    Unlike the majotity of the audience who liked it.
  14. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I don't think AOTC is underwritten. In fact I think it has the best script of all the movies, not just the prequels. The much maligned love story plays wonderfully on the page. The mystery of the Clones is well played with "Sido-Dyas" being an obvious fake, with the Jedi suspecting Sith involvement but being forced to rely on the Clones. Seriously, I can't recommend the script highly enough. But somewhere between the script and the final product it lost its way. I still like Attack of the Clones but much as it was with the early draft of The Phantom Menace, the script turned out to be better than the final film.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't see Sido-Dyas = obvious fake as an improvement.

    I see Sifo-Dyas = actual Jedi as the improvement.
  16. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Total Awesomeness!!! You did the world a huge favor. Good to see good people doing the right thing.
  17. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    As it turned out, I got cash back from the Best Buy where somebody got me the movie as a gft. So instead of buying any of the anime in the store (almost all of which I already had on blu ray, dvd or Netflix), I used the money to refill my MetroCard. Even at the rate Bloomberg's hiked the fares, I think that's a better use of funds than the film, most likely.
  18. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2
    Hey, I just finished watching this and I actually thought it was a pretty good Doc. First, know that I am an unabashed prequel fan. I love the prequels and find them to be fantastic. I accept that there are flaws in all 6 SW fans and find there to be no more flaws in 1-3 than in 4-6.

    That said. I found this to be surprisingly fair. Because it was a documentary about People who are upset at George Lucas. I think the title is misleading. It makes it seem as if the Documentary is making a case against George, when in fact it is merely documenting the people who are upset. And then in the end it even goes as far to show most of them still admitting they love George and Star Wars. So I liked it.

    It makes me realize even more that George's one real mistake is that he has remained so aloof through all of this. If he would just get down and mix it up with the fans. I think they'd love him for it. They are his movies so he doesn't feel the need to defend them. But he should defend them. He should get on Facebook and Twitter and youtube and talk to fans and communicate with them. I think theyd give him a pass.
  19. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    [face_laugh][face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    Which 'George Lucas' are you referring to, exactly?
  20. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2
    The one and only. I know he wont. I just wish he would
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    He did more or less the same thing with Aliens; gave it a good rating, but his review of it isn't very positive-sounding.

    And yes, Ebert gave an overwhelmingly positive review to TPM.
  22. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Critics always seem to forget their own opinions half of the time. In the same show episode where Ebert trashed AOTC, Richard Reoper stepped right in and and gave AOTC a big thumbs up and really praised everything about the movie even stating that he really liked the love story between Anakin and Padme. Then 3 years later when they reviewed ROTS, both really liked the movie, but when Roeper was giving his opinion he seemed to bash AOTC while giving praise to ROTS which directly contradicted his review from 3 years earlier when he said, (paraphrasing here), "Revenge of the Sith has what the previous two movies had none of... and that is a heart." When I saw that, I thought "WTF!"
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Nothing wrong with changing your opinion about a film.

    You see, when I first registered here, I hated TPM. Then after a year or so of posting, I decided that the usual basher mantras were things I just didn't care about and stopped. I think TPM, AOTC, and ROTS are all perfectly fine films that I enjoy watching, and that's that. :p
  24. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Lots of films can be bad and good. I watched Die Hard the other night, and it's full of plot holes and poor writing. I could pick it to pieces, yet it's still a damned good film. So I'd give it lots of stars, but a critical review.
  25. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    the SW trilogy is a great example.