Saga The People vs George Lucas

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I would have to say that Attack of the Clones lacks something that The Phantom Menance has....but i cannot really tell what it is.

    I like the sort of childlike innocence that bounces off the film in the Tatooine portion, which i think is the best part of the film.

    I do get rocks in my throat at the farewell between Anakin and Shmi, Pernilla August and Liam Neeson did great jobs in their roles, and

    i feel like TPM had more warm, heart and likeability because of it.

    Duel of the Fates is iconic and the best choreographer fight in the series.


    Attack of the Clones has a more interesting plot, but it feels much colder without Neeson's presence. Everyone seems on edge or angry,

    and while that could have been intended, i do not enjoy watched stuck up Jedi and politicians talk down at each other.

    Once again, the best part of the film is the Tatooine section, and i found Anakin's journey there compelling, as well as his confession to Padme to be Hayden's best acting in the two films he has done.

  2. jacktherack Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2008
    star 4
    i think i saw it at target for 15 bucks once. i didn't want to pay that much for it although i still want to see it. i don't buy movies for full price, whats the point if you are only gonna watch them once. that's why i hate blue ray movies. for a movie you can get for less then a doller on vhs or less then 5 on dvd it's 25-30 bucks on blu ray for just a slight quality update.
  3. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2
    I think Attack of the Clones suffers from all the the bad things about being a middle child in a trilogy.

    Thinking about this further. It seems like being the middle film of a trilogy has some inherent good things and bad things.

    The obvious thing is theres almost no chance of it being anything close to a stand alone movie. So that means its got an agenda other than just being a good movie. Right there its handicapped. It has work to do. In the case of AOTC it has a LOT of f-ing work to do. A ton of stuff that has to be developed. The courtship of Ani/Padme with the beginnings of trouble for Anakin's soul is enough to be a movie by itself. The creation of the Army and the beginning of the Clone Wars could also be a movie unto itself probably.

    The flip side however is the benefits of being a middle child in a trilogy. You don't have to introduce the whole thing, and you don't resolve a lot. Which gives you 2 plus hours of play time in this cool neighborhood.

    I think the unfortunate thing here is that AOTC has far too much work to do, to every really get to get out there and have fun. The opposite obviously being Empire Strikes Back. Empire gets all the benefits of being a middle child, and very little of the negative.

    Very little actually happens in Empire. Luke and Yoda, Luke and Vader are the only things in the whole movie that are "really vital" to the whole of the Saga. And those things are right in the wheelhouse of fun and games anyway. That means the rest of the movie gets to just go nuts in the awesomeness of Star Wars world. Which it does brilliantly. Hoth, The Pursuit of the Falcon (from both good guy and bad guy perspectives) and Bespin are all awesome.

    Empire is about one hr worth of movie stretched into 2. Buts its so danged much fun that no one cares. AOTC is like 3 1/2 hrs worth of movie crammed into 2 and it shows sadly. I love AOTC though, more because of what I know after its over than how effective it is while its running..
  4. CuppaJoe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 4
    sigh. You have much to learn.

    A lot of people buy movies because they are going to watch them more than once. And most if not all of those movies that you can get for $5 on DVD are usually only $10 or so on blu-ray. Blu-ray prices, with the exception of new releases and box sets, really aren't that high.

    Anyway, thread derail over.
  5. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I agree. I don't like the way Padme 'sympathises' with Anakin after he tells her what he's done, nor his sudden shift back to normalcy once they get the message from Obi-Wan, but everything else was great. There was this wonderfully realised sense of impending doom as he embarks on a completely personal mission, unrelated to immediate galactic affairs (but which would eventually have dire consequences for the entire galaxy).

    The way he loses it as he describes the Tusken massacre is note perfect. I remember getting a chill down my spine when I watched it for the first time & it really hit me that "this is the guy who becomes Darth Vader." You almost felt frightened for Padme just being in the same room as this very dangerous person, & I think it's a shame that they didn't follow through with the fear she might have felt.
    Constantly trying to make Anakin more sympathetic across the whole PT, I believe, was one of its most fundamental flaws. GL wanted to have his cake & eat it. I'd have preferred Anakin to simply degenerate into a monster, and make Padme & Obi-Wan the characters the audience should be sympathising with. Establish Anakin as good person, sure, but at some point I think we had to lose all sympathy for him. GL seemed to be constantly pulling back in terms of just how truly evil he'd become.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I think Attack of the Clones suffers from all the the bad things about being a middle child in a trilogy.


    If that's true, then one can say the same about The Empire Strikes Back. After all, it was the least successful film of the Original Trilogy at the box office.
  7. BLACKJEBUS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    I finally watched this the other day.

    After about 10 minutes it got really old and felt very repetitive.
  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Exactly what is "this"?
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    See, I saw that scene completely differently. I saw a guy who had just suffered a horrendous loss, one that I can't even begin the comprehend, as I can't imagine having visions about my mother for a month and then having her die in my arms after being slowly and brutally tortured. To me, it's no wonder he completely lost his mind. Then in the garage, he knows that completely lost his mind, and committed a horrific act in the process--and the shame and guilt are overwhelming him.

    I don't think Padme was afraid that Anakin would hurt her. I think she was afraid for him but not of him. Seems that the novelization goes into this somewhat but I would have to look. And the novelization for The Clone Wars movie talks quite a bit about how far Anakin's guilt over the Tusken slaughter extended. He reminds himself quite a bit that he's a "killer" in that novelization.

    All that being said, that scene is very well done, probably Hayden Christensen's best acting. And I've seen most of his movies, and generally speaking his best acting is not in Star Wars.
  10. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Just a wild guess, but I'd say "this" is "The People vs. George Lucas".

    It is just a wild guess, though.
  11. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    That makes no sense to me.
  12. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Christensen is really terrific here. In fact, the violence that propels his "I hate them!" may very well be the first injection of Method Acting into Star Wars.

    Had Lucas proven himself to be more of an actor's director in AOTC, I suspect few would have questioned Christensen's casting.
  13. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
  14. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    IMO, Lucas took all the fanboy's criticism of TPM to heart, and tried to appease them in AOTC. For example, Jar Jar's limited screentime, and Jango Fett's prominent role (cause hey, the hardcore SW fans just love Boba Fett, right?) As a result, the sense of wonder and childlike innocence from TPM was absent from AOTC and was a worse film because of it.
  15. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    It just doesn't feel like GL was fully engaged with AOTC. It's a beautiful visual piece but plodding and completely without a core. TPM has a strong core, and if you are willing to go along with it, that core holds the whole unwieldy experiment together (barely). AOTC definitely, imo, lacks the warm vibe, deep feeling & powerful quality of total immersion of TPM. And yet, Clones could be helped a lot just by clipping 10-15mins of meandering out of it. Yet again, sometimes I enjoy the languid, unhurried, excessive nature of Clones :p
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I just hope this doesn't become a trend.

    For example, think of all the endless complaining that Maul shouldn't have been killed in TPM. Lucas could end up capitulating to this noise and retconning his death.

    And that would be stupid.
  17. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    One thing I liked abt PVGL, was the input from French critics, who love the films. That seemed like something more worth exploring to me. I didn't finish watching it, I burned out after an hour, but that stood out to me. So many angles, even given the limitations of an indie doco, something of a missed opportunity. In short, it doesn't tell fans anything they didn't already know. And what outsiders would care..??
  18. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I like the "gypsy family" quality of TPM, with Qui-Gon as the father. Being a hippie-ish vagabond has an in-built romantic quality that allows Qui-Gon to -- as his name suggests -- quietly lead the movie and then be gone. Plus, we're getting introduced to the PT, and re-introduced (or introduced) to Star Wars itself, with TPM, so we're more tolerant of its excesses, I think, and everything is that much fresher. Then there's the generally lighter tone of the piece. It's a whimsical overture. And its action setpieces have, arguably, never been equalled. It has a lot in its favour. AOTC was always going to suffer by comparison. Although this is all subjective, I'd have to say I feel both movies have a core; multiple cores, in fact. Still, there is something about TPM, isn't there? A sweep, a power, a gravitas. And that Vader sound at the end of the credits? It might as well be George Lucas breathing a sigh of relief. He completed "The Beginning" and got the ball rolling. He needn't have journeyed there, but destiny compelled him, and he dutifully (re)answered the call to adventure.
  19. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    Yes, all great points. I should add that TPM is one of my ten favorite movies of all time. There's nothing like it. I kind of thing, if audiences had responded to TPM differently, AOTC would've been a very different, more experimental film. It's just a hunch. To me, there's an internal continuity to TPM that just doesn't carry over to AOTC.
  20. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Sword of Goliath: Have you ever watched TPM and ROTS concurrently? I have the same reservations about AOTC and find the episode-jump immensely satisfying.
  21. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    Never tried it! But the opening of RotS dovetails with the opening of TPM perfectly; although part of the effect is the "time" lapse between the two represented by Aotc. I must also add that the tv series is pretty much everything EII wasn't, so I kind of got my EII after all :)
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    IMO, Lucas took all the fanboy's criticism of TPM to heart, and tried to appease them in AOTC.


    I hope that Lucas is now finally learning not to listen to the fanboys. They SHOULD NOT dictate his work. His own vision should be doing that. They can either accept it or reject it. But dictating what should be in his movies? No. I don't like that one bit.
  23. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    No offence to AOTC fans, but I swear by this method of watching the prequels. The Phantom Menace sets up Revenge of the Sith beautifully. I had kind of gone off TPM by the time ROTS came out, but in light of the perspective we now gain from Ep3, TPM has a whole new depth to it. Don't get me wrong, I liked TPM when it came out, possibly because I was only 13, but these movies are the perfect complement to each other.
    This is probably superstition, but I find the fact that the time gap between the two movies is 13 years to possibly have significance. The "age of innocence" versus the "apocalypse". There is so much rhyming and irony when you look at these films in light of each other. For example, I can see Maul killing Qui-Gon symbolically mirroring Vader "killing" Anakin. In both events, Obi-Wan; the Apprentice, the Master, can only look on helplessly as his partner falls to the Sith apprentice.
    Phantom Menace also forms a strong backbone for ROTS. It introduces the themes, characters, the force (having said this I saw ANH first, which is probably a good idea for new fans), the Jedi (Qui-Gon is one of me favourite characters in Star Wars), and the Sith (far more of Sidious in Ep1 over Ep2). Also very effective as the calm before the storm, and adds weight to ROTS because we see what we are losing. Just a good combo these movies :)
  24. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    AOTC has it's good parts, mostly stylistic. I love it as Lucas's "pop art" movie, and the last hour is truly epic. My critique of it is as drama, as is yours, but I wouldn't want to lose it completely. His stylistic preoccupations sort of took over, but his preoccupations are interesting too.
  25. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah, I watch it sometimes. When I'm watching the prequels in one night it's usually TPM and ROTS, but EP2 has its merits.
    The highlight for me is when Anakin finds Shmi. Very dramatic and Hayden's acting in this scene is one of his better moments in the movie. You really feel for Anakin here. To find her at the very end is tragic, it would have been better if he didn't find her at all. It's also kind of spooky the way he approaches the camp in the dark. You know it isn't going to be a happy scene.

    IMO Attack of the Clones has the most lost potential of any film in the saga. Possibly the editing, I dunno. There just seems to be something missing for me. I don't find Yoda's comments throughout the film consistent with the rest of the saga, not as wise. And Obi-Wan doesn't match Qui-Gon as a mentor, although I feel this was partially intentional.

    Some of the action scenes could be more realistic. Such as Obi-Wan's ship taking repeated fire from Jango and Boba without blowing up... since when did you need to finish someone off with a rocket? Very inconsistent with the space battles of the OT.

    I don't mind the romance so much. With the deleted scenes it makes a bit more sense. The moment when Anakin and Padme are brought out into the arena to be executed is emotional. Very symbolic of the tragic romance. But I'm ranting :p