The Perception of the Chosen One in the Saga

I am interested in discussing not who is the chosen one, but what the people involved in the Saga (Jedi, galactic citizens, ect) percieve the chosen one and the prophesy itself.

I think you would all agree that Qui-Gon truly believes that Anakin is the chosen one, I mean he says so himself. Yet I have my doubts about Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi. The only reason he trains Anakin is as a promise to his master. I get the irking that he doesn't truly believe he is the chosen one.

I also think the Jedi community is not truly convinced either. "The chosen one the boy may be," we are told. What do you guys think about this?

What do you think people like Palpatine and Dooku percieve the chosen one to be? Do they believe in the prophesy? Is that why Palpatine takes great pains in befriending Anakin and then turning him into the DS, because he is afraid that Anakin IS the Chosen One and the only one that can actually stop him? Or does he just disregard the prophesy altogether?

I truly believe that as the Saga progresses, both Yoda and Obi-Wan lose all the faith they might have had with Anakin being the chosen one.

Yoda said: "Once you go through the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny" (or something akin to that...) When Luke said to Ben "I cannot kill my own father..." he responds by saying "Then the Emperor has already won..."

Basically, they both believe that redemption is not possible and that Vader has to die so that Luke can fulfill his destiny.

Which makes me think that at that point, they both believed that Luke was the Chosen One and the only one that could bring balance to the Force.

I leave you with this, my random thoughts. I ask of you not to discuss who actually is the Chosen One, but who the people in the GFFA think is the Chosen One, that is the purpose of this thread.

As always, I truly do love the discussions generated in this forum. The posters here are really special. (I'm in a happy mood...)

 

You got a point on that. Great post!

In one of the cut scenes in AOTC we have Mace, who also believes in the Chose One. So I agree with you, Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only one who don't believe that Anakin is the Chosen one, but that the son of Skywalker is. That is why they go hiding and survive the Jedi Purge.

So my conclusion is that Obi-Wan and Yoda are partly wrong. Anakin is the Chosen One, but to fullfill the prophesy the Chosen One must redeem himself. And to do that he needs his son in the redemption.

 

Qui Gon's perspective seems to be very clear, very black and white;
Anakin has lots of midichlorians.
Therefore, Anakin is the Chosen One, Therefore he must be trained.

Yoda's perspective challenges this- "the chosen one the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training." Which, as we know, is pretty sharp for a muppet...

(My guess is that Qui Gon is taking midichlorians= chosen one, mixing in the Jedi recruitment idea of midichlorians= potential Jedi, and coming to the conclusion that Anakin has to be trained from that.)

I think Mace Windu gives as interesting perspective on the prophecy in AOTC;

"If the prophecy is true, then your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance."

From that, it seems that Mace believes that Anakin is definitely the one the prophecy refers to- but he seems to be less sure of the accuracy of the prophecy ("IF the prophecy is correct") than whether or not Anakin is the one it refers to.

And also, that nobody else can bring balance to the Force apart from the Chosen One... But if the one who brings balance IS the chosen one, then that could kind of work backwards- if Chewie had killed the Emperor, then he would be the one who brought balance to the Force, and therefore the Chosen One. Tricky things, prophecies...

My theory about Dooku (with nothing more than a hunch to back it up...) is that he thinks either that he is the Chosen One, or that he can do the job of the Chosen One and destroy the Sith from within. Obviously, he isn't, and the Dark Side ends up dominating his destiny...

As for Palpatine, I like the idea that he knows that Anakin's the Chosen One, and turns him to the Dark Side so that he won't be a threat to him- this is perfectly in fitting with his style of setting his enemies up to take themselves out- manipulating the Rebel Fleet's desire to attack to just stick it in front of his new Death Star, or manipulating Padme's fear in the Senate to take down her "strongest supporter", or starting a fight within the Republic that, either way, the Jedi end up losing. So with Anakin, he takes the Force's greatest weapon and turns it into his own.

 

The Emperor believed that Luke was the "Chosen One"

Started by yours truly.

 

I just read your thread. Thanks for the link. You make very interesting points. I do agree with you that in the OT Palpy believes Luke to be the Chosen One. But what about PT Palpy? Did he know about the prophesy? I mean, is it general knowledge or just something the Jedi Council knew...

Food for thought...



Which, as we know, is pretty sharp for a muppet...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

 

"Which, as we know, is pretty sharp for a muppet..."

DR. BUNSEN HONEYDEW is smarter.

 

I thought I'd read somewhere that the prophecy implied that the chosen one would arrive as the Darkside cloud arrived.

Mace cetainly suggests as much, why would they know he would bring balance to the force.

You would think Palps either had great luck or exploited this timing.

 

I don't think the galaxy at large was even aware there was a propechy - and if they did, I don't think they cared very much. It's 'Force-stuff'.

I have to disagree with some of you - I don't think that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda believed Luke to be the Chosen One. Why would they? He was quite obviously not sired by the Force, or midi-chlorians. However, we must remember that no one knew exactly what the prophecy meant...'Bring balance to the Force'? Sure! Uh...how?

And just because someone has the chance of a destiny it doesn't mean this person will actually fulfill it - I don't think that Obi-Wan and Yoda lost faith in Anakin being the Chosen One, but in him actually fulfilling his destiny.

Sorry about the poor English.

 

That's incorrect I think... If he's the Chosen One, he MUST fulfill his destiny. Otherwise it wouldn't be his destiny. Also, the prophecy may not state you HAVE to be born of midchlorians to be the Chosen One.


It seems to me that Obi-Wan loses faith in Anakin, and believes that his son is the Chosen One. Yoda, on the other hand, still seems to think Anakin will do what Qui-Gon thought he'd do.

 

"That's incorrect I think... If he's the Chosen One, he MUST fulfill his destiny. Otherwise it wouldn't be his destiny. Also, the prophecy may not state you HAVE to be born of midchlorians to be the Chosen One."

Well, that depends on which Prophecy you go by. The 1975 Prophecy is quite different from the TPM Prophecy (which is far more descriptive.)

 

Is it "canon" (I hate that term)? Are either of them? And what do they say?

 

>>>>I thought I'd read somewhere that the prophecy implied that the chosen one would arrive as the Darkside cloud arrived.

Well, if the Chosen One is to bring balance to the Force, then that implies that the balance must first be lost.

>>>That's incorrect I think... If he's the Chosen One, he MUST fulfill his destiny. Otherwise it wouldn't be his destiny. Also, the prophecy may not state you HAVE to be born of midchlorians to be the Chosen One.

Well, here's what Lucas thinks about Destiny;

Star Wars is made up of many themes. It's not just one little simple parable. One is our relationship to machines, which are fearful, but also benign. Then there is the lesson of friendship and symbiotic relationships, of your obligations to your fellow man, to other people that are around you. This is a world where evil has run amuck. But you have control over your destiny, you have many paths to walk down, and you can choose which destiny is going to be yours.
- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

My own opinion is that Jedi training gives an individual the ability to see the future, and therefore more control over their own destiny than the average Joe- therefore if Anakin hadn't been trained, he might not have had the option of turning down a different path to his "set" destiny.

Mace Windu seems to think along those lines too- "if the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance. You must have faith that he will choose the right path."

On the other hand, Qui Gon seems to have thought that if Anakin hadn't been trained in the Jedi Arts, then he wouldn't have been able to fulfil this destiny. My guess is that Qui Gon didn't think that Anakin's natural affinity to the Force was enough for him to be guided by it- I think that his "luck" in TPM shows otherwise.

>>>Is it "canon" (I hate that term)? Are either of them? And what do they say?

Some people (like me) believe that the only true "canon" is what's in the films. Some people believe it's the films and the novelisations (and radio dramatisations of the OT.) Some people believe everything with the Star Wars label is "canon."

The 1975 prophecy (or rather, a part of it) is in the novelisation of the original Star Wars (at the beginning), and says something along the lines of "At the time of greatest despair shall come a saviour, and he shall be the Son of the Suns." I think it might be in the early drafts of the scripts too.

The TPM prophecy is only alluded to- it's never revealed what it actually says.

 

Scott3eyez

"My own opinion is that Jedi training gives an individual the ability to see the future, and therefore more control over their own destiny than the average Joe- therefore if Anakin hadn't been trained, he might not have had the option of turning down a different path to his "set" destiny."

God-Damn, my man! That is beautiful! That's the best explanation I've ever heard for Anakin being created away from the Jedi. Of course, considering the fact that the Order is becoming decrepit, that makes perfect sense.

As someone stated before, Jedi are created to fulfill a purpose. Perhaps Anakin was always supposed to sacrifice himself in the process of fulfilling the Prophecy. Perhaps, in Ep.III, his life will also be at risk (along with the rest of the Jedi), and he chooses life with Palps over death with the Jedi.

Wow! You've really got me started now. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

(BTW, when you have time, I'd like you to read over Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!! and tell me what you think. )

 

But you see, if he turned from his so-called destiny to another path, then that would have been his ultimate destiny, and the first one would have only been a catalyst that, once he learned of it, would have caused him to "choose" another path...

 

I've always had the feeling that the Jedi Council is waiting to see Anakin do something...some great thing to fulfill the prophesy.

They know that he has some problems and flaws as a Jedi, but have faith in him to come good in the end. They trust in Anakin, and the Force.

Can you imagine how betrayed some Jedi must feel at the way things turn out? A real crisis of faith...

 

"But you see, if he turned from his so-called destiny to another path, then that would have been his ultimate destiny, and the first one would have only been a catalyst that, once he learned of it, would have caused him to "choose" another path..."

Okay, but this is your interpretation. Lucas is going to define "destiny" by his interpretation.

"Can you imagine how betrayed some Jedi must feel at the way things turn out? A real crisis of faith..."

Obi-wan didn't have this "crisis of faith" when he sacrificed himself. Perhaps this is the key.

Qui-gon - his dying words were to have Anakin trained, he believed up until the end.
Obi-wan - "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine", and his look at Luke and smile at Darth Vader. He realized his current purpose in the Prophecy had been served, and a new calling was coming.
Yoda - Trained Luke for his purpose as well, and told him he was finally ready to face Vader, a necessary component of the Prophecy.

 

MeBeJedi, Everyone I have always thought it was part of the Jedi's arrogance to believe the chosen one must be a Jedi.

Yoda believed that he could be the chosen one but still didn't want him trained. So Yoda could of thought he could bring balance to the force without being a Jedi.

Or he wanted to wait as they did with Luke.

 

>>>God-Damn, my man! That is beautiful! That's the best explanation I've ever heard for Anakin being created away from the Jedi. Of course, considering the fact that the Order is becoming decrepit, that makes perfect sense.

Awww- thanks!


>>>>As someone stated before, Jedi are created to fulfill a purpose. Perhaps Anakin was always supposed to sacrifice himself in the process of fulfilling the Prophecy. Perhaps, in Ep.III, his life will also be at risk (along with the rest of the Jedi), and he chooses life with Palps over death with the Jedi.

That?s pretty much what I?m guessing will happen in Episode III. I think it?s almost a certainty that Anakin will face a similar kind of choice as Luke does at the end of ROTJ, but obviously fails to choose correctly- considering that Luke?s choice is between death and the Dark Side, this would certainly seem to fit into place. And if Dooku is indeed secretly plotting to overthrow Sidious to destroy the Sith from within, that would make the perfect opportunity for someone to strike down and take his place at the Emperor?s side- he?s certainly been given the motivation for revenge, and making him think that Dooku is responsible for some sort of harm to Padmé would obviously tip Anakin?s choice in that direction?

>>>(BTW, when you have time, I'd like you to read over Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!! and tell me what you think.)

Well, it?s a big thread, but I?ve tried to join in? (And the only way to do that is with big posts!)

 

Error: Only 1 message post per minute is allowed.

 

Scott3eyez

I believe there was a cut scene from AOTC where Yoda was asked if Anakin could bring balance to the force or something similar and Yoda said.

Only if he chooses to fulfil his destiny.

I'm not sure because it was a script I read which was spot on apart from a couple of scenes this being one.

Imagine if Anakin learns that part of the prophecy is that he has to die to bring balance to the force.

 

"Imagine if Anakin learns that part of the prophecy is that he has to die to bring balance to the force."

Interesting, but unlikely. In ESB, he believes Luke "can destroy" Palpatine, so Vader must see Luke as the "Chosen One." Vader wants to rule the galaxy with Luke, "as father and son."

Your theory assumes that Vader was deliberately leading Luke to his death in his own bid to take over the galaxy. Then again, he did mention turning Leia, so it's not entirely preposterous. Vader could have found another apprentice to train Luke, I just don't believe that this was his intention.

 

I'm not sure he thinks of Luke as the chosen one, he wants Luke to destroy The Emperor and join him, which wouldn't be bringing balance to the force. Surely destroying The Emperor and brining balance to the force are different issues?

If The Prophecy states that The Chosen one will bring balance to the force by sacrificing himself wouldn't this help to explain Anakin's turn? He refuses to accept his destiny and is angry with the Jedi for keeping this from him.

The sacrificing of himself would tie in with some others myths, in a way it could be viewed as Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (SP?) making a choice to turn away from his chosen path.

 

>>>Imagine if Anakin learns that part of the prophecy is that he has to die to bring balance to the force.

>>>>If The Prophecy states that The Chosen one will bring balance to the force by sacrificing himself wouldn't this help to explain Anakin's turn? He refuses to accept his destiny and is angry with the Jedi for keeping this from him.

While it would certainly make sense for him to turn his back on the Jedi if this turns out to be part of the prophecy, I think it would be very difficult for this to gel properly with the OT character- would someone who had turned his back on his own destiny use the very same "you must do it- it's your destiny" argument to try to convince Luke to join him?

Seems to me that Vader will think he is following his destiny, but will probably have a different interpretation to the Jedi of what the prophecy actually means. Maybe Palpatine will give him a different prophecy?

>>>The sacrificing of himself would tie in with some others myths, in a way it could be viewed as Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (SP?) making a choice to turn away from his chosen path.

Is that where the devil tempts him with all the lands on earth (or something similar)?

 

No I meant where he knows the Roman Gaurds are coming to take him away along with Judas and Jesus goes off on his own, he accepts his fate.

I believe it is very possible Palpatine will twist the prophecy or convince Anakin it is his destiny to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy.

 

Ah- gotcha.

I figured it would be more like the forty days in the wilderness thing (with the temptations and all) but your idea's interesting...

Could be an interesting mirror with Luke in ROTJ as well- where Luke stands and faces his destiny, Anakin runs away...