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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Phantom Edit & Re-Edit: A walk down memory lane

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by TrueJedi, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. DarthPreston

    DarthPreston Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    This has probably been the most entertaining argument that i have seen on this forums.........EVER!! HAHA. Keep it coming~

    Preston
     
  2. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    Sorry, Preston, but I think we've reached the end of this particular line of argumentation. If you want a discussion about "What constitutes art" - which has some of the same themes running through it - you should read this thread.

    hawk, I do feel as well as think. I am an artist (a photographer), and most of the shots I take are when I both think the composition is correct, and feel that the moment is right.

    If someone asks me what the image is about, I make damn sure that I can explain and defend my motivations. I make sure that there are reasons for me being able to say that a particular work is abstract, or influenced by Cartier-Bresson or Adams.

    Artistry is not simply feeling, nor it is simply thinking - it is a combination of the two, and there are rules to be followed.

    I cannot paint a gaudy, Baroque portrait and call it a minimalist work. I cannot paint an abstract and call it Dadaist. I cannot use broad strokes of paint and call it pointillist. And I'm sure you know why: each movement and realm of artistic expression has basic, defining patterns, and the same holds true for works of literature and mythology. If you want to say that a novel is "Romantic" versus "Post-modern", you have to be able to justify it and explain your position better than "It just is, and it's obvious to me."

    In a nebulous scene, where interpretations are as plentiful as junk food at Oprah's house, you will simply need to be able to justify your arguments and not simply fall back on "You're overanalyzing" - it's a cop out. I know you believe the metaphor to be there, and I'm happy to leave it as a matter of opinion. But don't tell me that I'm overanalyzing or being too cerebral about this - I know what I'm talking about.

    If all we care about are "unconscious impulses" or superficial comparisons, than the film is a Rorshach test. But most of these "unconscious impulses" and superficial comparisons break down with even a modicum of inspection. The basic premise of interpretation is that there be explicit supporting evidence - I could offer a justification that JJB was modeled after Barishnakov, if given enough time and leeway.

    We can agree that on a superficial level, there is reason to believe that a metaphor might exist. But understand that this metaphor is fragile, and easily broken. I don't need to break out texts on literary analysis to see the holes, just as you say that metaphors leap out at you.

    If you are committed to maintaining this particular metaphor, you are also committed to maintaining each metaphor that depends upon the same evidence you use. Absent a specific justification (which to date you have not provided), it is intellectually dishonest to say that one is true rather than another. You can't fall back on a subjective statement like "it's there, appreciate the forest for the trees, watch the movie again, etc., etc." because each and every one of these "justifications" can be used for every other possible and plausible interpretation.
     
  3. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    Maybe I am just stupid QS, but your posts come across as pretentious and belittling. Why don't you stick to the language a fool like I can understand. Stop rambling on about
    "Rorshach" or "Barishnakov". I might seem like the every day George Costanza, but the majority of fans on this SW board have no idea what you are talking about and it is annoying reading these over-the-top preaches.

    Once again I am sorry for my ignorance, but half the stuff you are writing is over my head. I think you do so to feel superior. Well done. You have achieved it. I used to like you. Now I feel I am talking to one hell of a show-off. Maybe you expected more from me. Sorry I couldn't deliver. But since I can't decipher half your post, I have no choice but to back down.
     
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    SW films are as "shallow" as the person watching it.
     
  5. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    QS,

    I take back what I wrote just then. It was 2.00am and I was a bit tipsy and tired. Your last post makes more sense now and doesn't seem to be full of as much "name dropping" as I visualized. But I admit, some of the stuff you are talking about isn't really clear to me and half the names and words you are referencing me towards - I have never heard about. So, in the absence of futher evidence, I back down because I can't decipher some of what you are reffering to. No hard feelings.
     
  6. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Sorry, I haven't read anything since my last post, so give me an opportunity to catch up, but I did notice one quote --

    SW films are as "shallow" as the person watching it.

    Go-Mer, don't force me to whip out my LOTR argument.
     
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Go right ahead.
     
  8. Telemachos

    Telemachos Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Q-Sith is referring to standard forms of literary and artistic criticism, as well as many styles and movements within various artistic media.

    I suggest a good-quality art history book.
     
  9. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    No harm no foul, hawk. I understand - in the past year I've been drunk and tired and on TF.N, too.
     
  10. Malthus

    Malthus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 1999
    Ah, yes. Glad to see TPE and TPRE aren't so mashed into the dirt that we can't talk about them still.
    <splut>
    <Malthus checks his shoe>
    Well, there is this piece of TPE I just stepped on. I guess this stuff isn't biodegradable.

    Brother Quix, you do tend to walk among the clouds :)
     
  11. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    But I try to keep a tether attached to the ground.

    :D

    I do try to keep it toned down, though. I'm *really* bad in the thread I linked to above about what constitutes art in the Senate.

    Edit- This coming from the guy who has a thread devoted to nonsense? Don't make me post some of that stuff here.

    :D
     
  12. Malthus

    Malthus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 1999
    I think perhaps Gomer cuts that tether from time to time.
     
  13. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    Geez...

    Weren't we just talking about symbolism and metaphors...
     
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
  15. Malthus

    Malthus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 1999
    I meant it as simple banter, not to drive home any points. Quix tends to talk in... uhm... luxurious words at times, and as such walks among the clouds. He said he tries to keep a tether (i.e. rope or similar flight-restraint device), and I said Gomer cuts that tether from time to time.
     
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I meant to imply that I always work without a tether in the first place. ;)
     
  17. TadjiStation

    TadjiStation Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2001
    Does that mean that you are in an ever expanding flight out into deep space?

    :D

    :p
     
  18. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Now that I'm finally back, a few late comments on the metaphor....


    In TPM, Palpy/Sidious does not chase after the Jedi.

    *cough* Darth Maul??


    The symbolism applies to the Jedi being saved by the big fish like Palpatine presumably saves the republic by being elected as chancellor.

    But the movie in no ways shows Palpy saving the Republic by becoming Chancelor, he says that he will bring about a golden age, but that's a promise of future activaties, one he in fact never delivers. What we see him do in the present is nothing, even he admits that it was Amidala's boldness that saved Naboo.


    So, right now, it makes sense for the big fish to let the Jedi go on their "merry way". That's what Palpy is doing...for now.

    *cough-cough* Again, Maul?? After the TF says they cannot find the Queen, the Sith takes charge, and Sid gives Maul explicate instructions to deal with the Jedi before capturing the Queen.


    EDIT- "onjective" isn't a word.

    PPOR


    I wrote a thread on this. You know? The fans know SW better than Lucas.

    I'm a little confused by this in context of the conversation. Are you suggesting Lucas didn't intend the metaphor, but it is there anyway?

    OK, now the FOTR argument I promised Go-Mer, regarding whether or not SW is as shallow as the person watching it. Ok, so Go-Mer, you feel that SW has a lot of deep, meaningful stuff in it, would you say FOTR also has a lot of depth, and if not, why?
     
  19. TrueJedi

    TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    There's nothing shallow about SW. It has deep meaning to all of us even if McCallum calls it mere "eye-candy".
     
  20. TadjiStation

    TadjiStation Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2001
    Up.......



    Yours!!!! :p


    :D

    Sorry, I just couldn't let this thread die.

     
  21. TrueJedi

    TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    This thread will never die. It will live in the hearts of SW fans all around the world.

    This thread is about salvation. Salvation of a saga gone wrong. We are like Luke Skywalker and George Lucas is like Darth Vader. It is up to us to bring Lucas back to the good side of the saga.

    Through things like TPRE & TPE, we protested to George that he was taking the saga in a direction that was a complete disaster. "Wake up, George!!", we screamed. And he heard us.

    He did a much better job in AOTC and although there was room for improvement, nevertheless, he heard his fans telling him that he screwed up with TPM and so he got back on track with AOTC.

    As long as we keep giving George advice, he'll keep listening and make the saga more to our liking and thus, a great saga.
     
  22. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    And if *that* doesn't get Go-Mer posting in the thread again, nothing will.
     
  23. TadjiStation

    TadjiStation Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2001
    I think the fuse has been lit...
     
  24. TrueJedi

    TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
  25. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    I can't believe I killed the Edit thread. Rest in peace, TPE Thread, rest in peace. :(
     
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