Saga The Phantom Menace VS. A New Hope

Fixed. Ha ha lol

 

A New Hope. Not even close.

TPM is, in my humble opinion, the only bad film in the saga. The flaws of TPM have been pointed out ad nauseum since 1999, so suffice it to say that I never wanted to see Darth Vader as a ten-year old. Even on paper, the concept sounds awful.

Fortunately Lucas subconsciously recognised how bad the film was and made it completely irrelevant to the saga. You can just as well start at AOTC and miss absolutely nothing as every character is reintroduced due to the time skip.

 

I don't think I have a clear answer. ANH is the core of Star Wars from which everything else that has ever drawn me to the series--be it another film, game, or book--has emerged, and thus for that reason alone it's hard to discount the film. Throw in the oddly realistic weird Western first half of the film coupled with the pulpy fun second half that refuses to take itself too seriously, and the film is equal parts "grit" and charm in a manner that only classic Lucas could pull off. And then we have TPM, a film which kind of seems like an ANH redo in regards to some broad strokes, but taken piece by piece manages to feel like perhaps the most unique episode of all with its wistful fairy tale visuals, slapstick overdoses, thrilling swordplay, and surprisingly subversive themes. It feels like something that only "jazz riff" Lucas could come up with.

So again, no clear answer here. I can see why ANH is the more "important" film and the one that will always come closer to achieving universal appeal. And I can also see why some people (like myself) find TPM to be deeper and more visually imaginative.

 

Luke, Han, Leia, Darth Vader, and Yoda are also all given lengthy (re)introductions in Empire. Good thing you can skip out on the monstrosity that was the original film, amirite?

 

I'd argue there's a lot more ties between Episodes IV and V, with much of the character development being carried over. Whereas with TPM and AOTC, the characters have made so much development of their own between the films that there's not as much linking them.

For example, Obi-Wan's loss of Qui-Gon doesn't play into Episode II at all, unlike Luke losing his parents and Obi-Wan (to an extent) which makes him all the more determined to save his friends in Empire even though it's likely a trap.

But if you really wanted to, you could, yes.

 

I'd argue that Qui-Gon's loss is essential to understanding the state of the Jedi Order and the Republic, why Anakin and Obi-Wan interact the way they do, would help understand Obi-Wan's sense of pathos when first confronted by Dooku in his cell, and AOTC's broader tone/atmosphere, but yes, I'd agree that Anakin and Padme are both wholly different characters in their AOTC incarnations, but I also think that was largely unavoidable due to the necessary time gap, and not a subconscious start from scratch on Lucas' part.

I'd also say that each film can more or less exist on its own, introducing and reintroducing main characters, fulfilling and completing its own narrative. Some (ANH, ROTS) are more successful than others (AOTC, ROTJ).

 

Good points, but I'd say that while AOTC is reasonably accessible as an entry point, TPM is still hugely necessary for its contributions. Anakin's past as a slave on tatooine, as well as his expressed desire to keep things just as he wants them, plays a lot into his character motivations later in the trilogy. And seeing Palpatine weasel his way into power, while still being ostensibly good, makes his appearance in AOTC much more subtle and convincing. And finally, I think Qui Gon, if for nothing else, is necessary for his final scene with Obi Wan. The fact that Obi Wan's decision to train Anakin was a promise, a duty, not a personal preference adds a great layer to his relationship with Anakin in 2 and 3. There's always this subtle element of regret he carries, especially as Anakin shows signs of darkness. When he says, in ROTS, "I have failed you Anakin", he isn't just saying that to his apprentice. He's saying that to himself, for failing his duty, and to his master, for failing his promise.

 

Anakin being separated from his mother in TPM at his age explains his character as an adult, in terms of attachment style--that's actual elementary psychology. And as such, this is absolutely necessary for the character. There's nothing in ANH that lays the foundation for anyone's subsequent character development with any such depth--or psychological realism, if you will.

 

True, but I think a large part is due to the fact that ANH is much surer about what kind of film it wants to be than TPM. It's a fun, thrilling, fast-paced adventure film. It has it's nuances and complexities, as any great film should, but it's main priorty is entertaining the audience. The tone is consistent throughout. Even the goofiest moments are handled with enough self-awareness to not discount the seriousness of the rest of the film, and the drama, while emotional and punchy, never lingers, for the sake of keeping the adventure going. TPM, on the other hand, is all over the place. Personally I find it charming, but it is nevertheless a wierd, esoteric series of tonal jumps from complex political intrigue to Tex Avery style cartoon humor. Whereas ANH was masterful in its ability to be an "ageless" film, TPM has a multitude of scenes that either present ideas too complex to be appreciated by children or too broadly goofy to satisfy most adults. Some may find that contrast enjoyable, and on some level I do as well, but for many it makes for a film that satisfies on few levels.

 

Great posts. Could we have another couple of threads about "Empire VS Clones" and "Jedi VS Sith"?

 

NM

 

They are my favourite Episodes, so it's hard to pick one. ANH is the original and the rest of the saga owes a lot to that film. TPM was the first movie where Lucas had nothing and nobody to stop him from realizing his vision of how he wanted to do it and show it. They are also the only true standalone movies of the saga, which gives a "cosy" feeling to them.

I must have missed the joke here...

 

Those threads would be interesting to see. Both would be toss ups among the people on the board. Empire hands down for me but Jedi or Sith? That one is hard.

 

Tough one. I think I have to go with The Phantom Menace for a couple of reasons.

It was what got me into Star Wars because it was the first one I saw so nostalgia.
A lot of the film is on Tatooine and I like the scenes here slightly more than A New Hope.
It shows young Obi Wan which I find cool.
The final battle with Darth Maul.

This doesn't mean I don't like A New Hope though I love all the films.

 

Just another thought I'd like go put forward: Samnz, Cyrogenic and I all wrote decently robust (If I'm allowed to say that about my own post) arguments for our respective picks; me for ANH, Samnz and Cyrogenic for TPM. My argument for ANH was largely focused on the effectiveness of specific moments or characters, beats of catharsis that ensnare the audience. Cyrogenic and Samnz arguments, on the other hand, was far more about ideas, broader concepts at play in the story that give TPM the edge over its predecessors.

What point am I trying to make with this comparison? The focus of our preferences did not come out of a vacuum. They reflect where George Lucas was as an artist in both films. In ANH, he was a young up-and-comer, with an ambitious idea that everyone was skeptical of. Between his own lack of self assuredness in the mass appeal of his own ideas, his youth, budget/special effects issues, as well as heavy pressure from producers and other creative authorities, he was likely pushed to create a more populist film than he intended, with the focus ultimately on just showing the audience a good time, and away from the more complex concepts that he layed down in the background. The result was a film that captured the hearts the world, and people saw Star Wars as something that was refreshingly (in contrast to other, darker hit films of the 70's) simple, straightforward, and just fun.

17 years later, when he sat down to write the prequels, he was an older filmmaker. More than that, a legend within his industry. Now he had all these grand, unrealized ideas of a sociopolitical science-fantasy pulp-western epic, which in past films had been narrowed down to "just" a science-fantasy pulp-western. But now he had nobody to question him, and more than that, I think as an older filmmaker he was simply much more willing to dove headfirst into those loftier, grander aspects. Now, where much of the criticism of TPM stems from is the theory that, while playing with those heady ideas like the downfall of society, the symbiotic relationship between nature and industry, and the psychological formation of a dictator, he at some point "forgot" (or intentionally strayed from, depending on your point of view) the crowdpleasing, populist appeal of the previous films. It's not a theory that I 100% agree with, as TPM still has numerous moments that are at least attempting to be crowdpleasing and fun, but it is a theory that I think touches upon something close to the truth.

Ultimately though, I think it is very evident, regardless of your perspective, that ANH is the work of a younger filmmaker, while TPM is very much the work of an older one.

 

1. "Version that somehow escaped and was released" Star Wars.
2. "Version that GL completed three times. Each more complete than the last!" Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope

 

Well said, ezekiel. Well said. As always.

I didn't really give enough credit to ANH -- instead, I predictably fell into fawning over TPM. That wasn't quite fair to the classic piece of cinema that is, simply, "Star Wars".

The original remains a real blast to watch and a true one-of-a-kind experience. From a cinematographic, art-world point-of-view, it is an incredibly rich work, full of wonderful stylization and a real, unvarnished zest. I love that about it.

It can also seem both bigger and smaller after the prequels. Many small moments gain deeper meaning and a lot of the world design seems more pronounced, somehow, in light of the PT. After the epic tragedy depicted in ROTS, ANH is also something of a palate-cleanser. It works like a dream on that level.

I guess I find the second half more effective than the first, however. Lucas is a bit looser with his camera after we enter the belly of the beast (i.e., the Death Star) and a clear "saga" theme emerges concerning young characters running amok within a decayed system. Han and Luke in white plastic, Han's surreal conversation on the intercom, ended with a laser blast, squabbling in the trash compactor, mockery and awe as Han chases stormtroopers on foot, Vader battling Obi-Wan in some half-remembered dance, and the energetic, fiery retreat of our heroes as the film's visually and aurally spectacular climax swings into view, but not before an awesome action vignette in which spiritual buddies Han and Luke fend off TIE fighters in a sequence which seems to predict thirty years (plus) of video game art . It's exciting stuff. The film may seem a little dated by today's standards, but it has lost none of its brio.

TPM, though ... that's the stunner. It really speaks to me as the grand expression of an inner vision: one that seems to have crept up on and surprised its maker about as much as anybody. While those with an axe to grind against TPM may find their own truth within Lucas' remark in "The Beginning" -- "I may have gone too far in a few places" ("A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." / "The Federation has gone too far this time..." ) -- I really dig it because it seems to be GL expressing a mixture of acute embarrassment and amusement at what he wound up making. It's like some inner part of his own being exceeded the ken of his conscious mind. In a film dealing explicitly with doubles, decoys, two-faced deals and split societies, that feels like a wonderfully unified revelation, to me. The "outer" and the "inner" of TPM and its maker are one.

People really underestimate the subconscious, sublime aspect of the artistic process. They also miss make a fallacy out of the argument from intentionality. Something can be intentioned or not. In reality, everything is and nothing is. How we personally view the end result for ourselves is what matters. Every nook and cranny of meaning *can* be there for those that *want* it to be there. A film is a melding of minds writ large. Any film worth getting excited about is one in which your own mind is touched and jangled. For me, it's one of the deeper meanings -- again, my personal interpretation -- behind Jar Jar. Something can shake loose when you experience "good" art (good in quotation marks because, again, it's subjective). Profound, fluidic introspection can be had, and then lost to the ether just as quickly as it floated through your mind to start with. Eventually, with enough viewings, enough contemplation, perhaps a real change can be created. THAT is the power of art; a power I personally perceive in TPM. But ultimately, it's about what works for each viewer at different stages in their lives.

I largely agree.

I think TPM is more of patchwork quilt than ANH. There's a dissonant -- almost reckless -- density to it. That's part of the attraction for me. When I was a bit younger than I am now, I made the mistake of imagining TPM to be a smooth film, and every bit as elegant as any other blockbuster film you might name, just misunderstood. That caused me a bit of consternation because I was trying to square a circle. I no longer see TPM in quite that fashion. It's rather esoteric: pacing, momentum, visuals, approach to dialogue, you name it. The biggest and best cohering element is probably the music. I'd say that everything else is up for grabs. I think another reviewer put it well when he said that TPM is "a movie that sits in one's psyche like a tricycle in a snake's belly".

The word I'm probably searching for is heterogeneous. ANH, for all its brilliance, is a much more straight-forward adventure film in a lot of ways. Possessed of less colour and shading than TPM, ANH is more matter-of-fact, less complicated and more direct. In the older film, Lucas tends to connect more dots or digress less frequently. In language, there is the technique or phenomenon of hypotaxis (literally: "beneath arrangement"): the arrangement of clauses in a dependent or subordinate relationship. This contrasts with parataxis (literally: "beside arrangement"): a sort of list-oriented approach where different fragments are placed side-by-side or one-after-the-other. To quote from the wikipedia entry on the latter, parataxis "is also used to describe a technique in poetry in which two images or fragments, usually starkly dissimilar images or fragments, are juxtaposed without a clear connection. Readers are then left to make their own connections implied by the paratactic syntax." This kind of fragmented, juxtaposed approach seems to be much more evident in TPM than in ANH. There's a little bit of overlap between the two in terms of these basic techniques, but I think a general pattern holds: TPM is largely paratactic, while ANH is mostly hypotactic. I'd say that people generally respond better to hypotactic cinema, where connections are drawn more clearly between opposing frames, sounds, or ideas, while paratactic is more of your "art cinema" technique of choice.

Look back to GL's own "THX" to see a very strong example of parataxis. The man is obsessed with it. I think he had to dial back some of his eccentricities to make the OT work, but he was under no obligation to go down the same path with the PT. He wanted to be bolder and I think he was. He even seems to be playing a game over it in TPM. I guess this is yet another reason I admire it and continually find myself sucker-punched by its construction. Play close attention to Qui-Gon on Tatooine. That poncho seems to hide so much. Now and again, a hand comes out to scold Jar Jar in the junkshop ("Don't touch anything"), or to try and fleece Watto with a mind trick ("Credits will do fine"), or reach for a food pellet, or withdraw a display device to show Watto "his" gleaming starship, or produce a power charge to help Anakin start up his podracer, or to alter the roll of a possibly-counterweighted chance cube. When Qui-Gon makes his original deal with Watto, magical music is also played as he paces serenely forward and back again, seducing Anakin with his calm authority. This, again, is in stark contrast to much of what's in ANH. It casts the entire saga in a new light. I remain enchanted.

Though ... there's enough eccentricity and beauty in all the SW films to go around.

 

There is no movie called "Star Wars"

 

TPM has gradually become my favourite PT film, but it still trails Episodes 4 and 5 in my rankings by a considerable margin.

 

Okay.

*Backs away slowly*

 

prepare to have your mind blown

Spoiler: history lesson

 

Check out my avatar which is the original poster of the movie Star Wars as A New Hope was not added until the re-release in 1981. You need to learn your SW history before making ignorant comments.

 

Sorry for double post, my IPhone screwed up.

 

Darkslayer - you know perfectly well that there is/was a film called Star Wars. Drop it. Everyone else, stop rising to the bait.