Senate The Politics of Genocide

Guys... you're arguing with a guy who thinks homosexuality is a genetic disorder. He's not very bright (or, he's a troll).

 

or possibly, since he seems to know his exact thinking, literally hitler.

 

I didn't know that. Ugh.

 

True story.

 

How can he read up on a fiction invented by Communist Jews?

(I assume he's going to go there)

 

Hitler had been talking about a final solution since Mein Kampf. The exact definition of what that was that was going to be didn't start to happen until Germany started losing the war against the Soviet Union in 1941. Initially there were early plans to simply move the Jewish population to eastern Europe to live in a vassal state practically as slaves under the Greater German Reich like all of the Slavs and surviving Russians were going to. There were even plans to move Jews to Madagascar or to British colonies in Africa before this began. They started killing in mass to start to conserve resources for the survival and victory of Germany during World War II. This is why the survivors were generally made into slave labor to build munitions and supplies for the war.

 

They weren't ****ing losing the war in 1941. They were winning. The Red Army had halted their advance just outside of Moscow; Leningrad was under a protracted siege that would see most of its people (nearly) succumb to starvation; millions of Red Army soldiers had been taken prisoner; Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltics, and western Russia remained under the Third Reich. The USSR was robbed of its economic backbone and a big chunk of its population. The desperate defense of Moscow was a strategic setback for the Germans at best, and in theory the Wermacht could still have taken the city (not that it would have won them the war, as Napoleon could have told them). Germany didn't actually start losing until 1943; no one in the German leadership seriously considered that they might lose the war until then. Don't be delusional.

You either have me on ignore or are just ignoring me. Nazi apologist.

 

They were beginning to lose in late 1941 once the winter and heavy rains on the eastern front halted German advancement past Smoninsk. They failed to meet their objectives past this point. Germany because of a lack of traction and resources became bogged down in the winter snows between 1941 and 1942. They were able to hold ground, but not advanced further. This is the very beginning elements of how the war turns against the Germans. The attempt to capture oil and other resources in Caucuses does occur in 1942, but meets failure as well. This campaign was never going to be sustainable for the Germans to overtake.

All of the fighting had already begun to turn for the Germans by then anyway because the Soviets are able to reorganize, regroup, and mount a defense which repels any significant German advancement except for Case Blue which failed. By this time also, they were at war with the United States, another power to put pressure on German forces in Europe, even if it was simply naval warfare to begin with.

 

I guess you missed my comments of no one having proven homosexuality as either a biological cause or not. No one truly knows at this point in time. If it is of that direction the factors which contribute to it in theory could be categorized as some of those that form a genetic disorder. No one knows though.

 

I'm denying the Holocaust somehow even though I'm explaining an element which caused the mass exterminations, aka the Holocaust or genocide. Sounds like I don't believe that happened alright. Absolving them of blame? No. Or perhaps I'm explaining one of the key reasons that the Germans converted their early concepts of the final solution from a mass relocation of Jews to conquered territories to mass extermination. That and also mentioning before a comparison how part of the motivation for this genocide was to acquire land and natural resources like ISIS does. That makes sense now. If they had won the war, it's very likely they would've still wiped out the population eventually, especially after General Plan Ost was created. The main factor which caused this transition was the beginning situation for a losing of the war in the east and then ultimately everywhere else as well.

 

Maybe quote something for a change if you want me to know you responded. I'm not getting alerts another way or following this thread directly.

The form of mass extermination wasn't the initial plan until it changed during the war. It was at first going to begin to a means of creating vassal states out of eastern Europe populated with the minorities which the Nazis opposed such as Jews, Slavs, and others. They intended to replace the population over time in different generations, not necessarily through mass extermination in death camps designed to wipe out the majority of the population. This situation changed instead of making them a population of slave labor, began to eliminate them in mass with the purpose of conserving resources for the war, especially when beginning to lose it and have others for slave labor during the conflict. The idea conceived to eliminate all through death camps didn't truly form until then.

 

The Germans BEGAN to lose the war after the invasion of the Soviet Union this was their pinnacle for expansion. They were doomed as soon as the Russian winter set in. After the invasion which was never going to be a success than the war started to turn against the Germans. Declaring war on the United States could be another. They were never going to be able to defeat the Soviet army. It would've been better for Hitler not to have started Operation Barbarossa as that was truly the beginning of the end.

The determination made by Heydrich or last definition of the final solution for all the Jews didn't come into being until the Wannsee Conference in January 1942 where it was officially adopted by all officials of the German military. That plan which was authorized by Goering was more of a research plan which developed into the plans for mass killings. It was vague in solution up until the following year. It wasn't specific of its goal until made with final preparations in lieu of that presentation.

 

Barbarossa was the beginning of the end for the Germans and turned the tide. The other territories like Greece and along the Aegean could be subdued. Hitler's aim was never to control Britain, simply sign an armistice with it. His real efforts were being aimed at eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.

The Germans hadn't yet decided until Wannsee that mass extermination was the final solution. They had killed before, but not decided it would be automatic or adopted policy of the military at this point. Germany didn't necessarily see itself as being doomed at this point, simply unable to contribute the needed resources to the war effort while keeping such a large undesirable minority population fed, clothed, and kept in large scale concentration camps. They needed the resources for things like this towards the war effort, which wasn't not going as planned, not necessarily perceived as utterly out of control yet. Plus they needed a source to fund the war from stolen or confiscated property too.

 

redlightning I still do not understand where you are getting the notion that they started up the mass killings just because they were defeated in the USSR (which was a huge loss, but not the turning point). The Holocaust occurred in steps. First it was taking away rights of the Jews/other ethnic groups, then riots and pogroms against them, then seizure of their belongings/homes, and then they were forced into ghettos. By 1941, the Jewish(and other ethnic groups) population was completely removed from German society, so then they finally implemented the final solution to exterminate them once and for all. The war didn't affect the holocaust until the end when the Nazis had to try and remove any proof of them committing genocide. Anyways, I'll stop there. This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

 

The Germans initially had plans to resettle the Jews in the east as part of a vassal state like the Ukraine was going to be. They were to be slave labor effectively meant to support the built up Greater Reich after the war. At first, it wasn't to exterminate them all in a systematic way. Would the Germans have killed them off over generations of slavery and oppression? Sure, eventually. Did they? No, because the chance wasn't given as they intended to. Instead the war turned against Germany in 1941 and in a slowly increasing desperation for resources and labor became the catalyst to begin wiping out the Jews in mass numbers at a very rapid rate through the death camps in that period. Without the war, the mass killing wouldn't have occurred in this manner, but much slower over time.

 

It was one way, it was primarily done out of frustration and desperation after the tide of the war turned against them. This is why the first targets of the camps generally were women and children first. More men survived than not on average. A significant amount of the war effort was also funded from confiscated goods.

 

Perhaps I should rephrase my point as the losing of the war as the CATALYST for mass killings at such a high volume to begin during the Holocaust. It was already occurring before the war and was planned over generations to unfold. It accelerated dramatically on the scale it did because of the loss of the war.

 

Are you still upset about Germany's defeat?

 

Wow:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sh-as-it-votes-to-recognise-armenian-genocide

On probably any other country, Turkey could try and play the 'you've got as much bad stuff on your record and you haven't 'fessed up to it' and might even get away with it.

On Germany? No way at all.

 

Good move by Germany; they're basically the nation I look to now with the best sense of leadership and purpose for the West.

 

Never forget. face rose, face heart,

 

lol, sorry for the necropost, Drama from the cancel culture reminded me of this classic thread and meltdown.