The Politics of ROTS & The Saga

Perhaps it's not that they don't care as much as it's the fact that they're so ignorant to the fact that they are actually evil.

 

I think in Star Wars Sidious might be the only character you can call evil, maybe Maul but he was so 1 dimensional, like a stromtrooper or something. Everyone else it just depends on what side your looking at it from, Vader, Dooku, no they just went against the jedi. The separatists were not evil they just saw the Republic as corrupt, it was, and the "good" jedi were killing them left and right. Its not like the Rebels did not kill people, im not thinking every single person on the death star was evil, No, i think that is one of the best lines in Star Wars, "Good is a point a view."

 

In the new Entertainment Weekly the cover stroy is on all these Political movies coming out, and it metions Revenge of the Sith, the line they quote is "if your not with me your my enemy." Saying it was a reference to the current adminstration, and on the commentary for ROTS, Lucas compares DS to Nixon, which kind of threw me, saying that he tried to amend the constitution to get a 3rd term.

 

Hmmm...

How long is a Supreme Chancellor of the Republic's term of office supposed to be?

Palpatine had been in office for 13 years prior to ROTS, and Obi-Wan makes it clear that he had been in office longer than he should have been.

Nixon had been in office for 6 1/2 years, before the Hippie scum in the media drove him out office in "eternal shame".

Seriously, it seems like FDR (1933 ? 1945) was more like Palpatine than Nixon... lol

Hippies... don't trust them.

 

Seriously, it seems like FDR (1933 ? 1945) was more like Palpatine than Nixon... lol



Ive always contended that Palpatine, the same as Anakin and Luke - those two by his own admission, was just another extension of Lucas himself. One, that for obvious reasons , he doesnt elaborate on or even allude to.

 

Well, that certainly takes all of the "Politics" away from the discussion, but it's probably true. <Anakin and Padme laugh...>

 

Nice, bumping your own thread.


The simple fact of the matter is that if Lucas's intention was to bash on the current administration his career would suffer tremendously. Just like all the washed up actors like Sarandan and Sheen, what have they done lately? Nothing.

So it's left up to our point of view. Any attempt to argue over this will simply be a clash of ideologies. The right wing will call the other hippies, the lefties will call the right Nazi's.

But in the end, you're all just pawns in their little game.

Vote third party.

 

:::The simple fact of the matter is that if Lucas's intention was to bash on the current administration his career would suffer tremendously.

Yeah, BUT, Revenge of The Sith woudn't have won *any* Oscars if...

Oh, wait, it *won't* win any of those GOLDEN IDOL STATUES in 2005, anyway?

And so it is...

:::Just like all the washed up actors like Sarandan and Sheen, what have they done lately? Nothing.

Just watch. They'll think of *something*... they always do.

:::So it's left up to our point of view. Any attempt to argue over this will simply be a clash of ideologies. The right wing will call the other hippies, the lefties will call the right Nazi's.

Actually, my favorite epithet for Leftists is "Commie-Mutants", after the 1980's Atari game; it's so "Archie Bunker", but it's also so fitting.

:::But in the end, you're all just pawns in their little game.

:::Vote third party.

Sure, but they have enough power to drive any third party candidate out of the debate, unless a lot of people speak out, and even then, once we elect them, like I elected Bill Clinton, by voting for Perot, they can ignore us with impunity.

 

I actully agree with you Zam for the most part, I'm not going to say that ROTS or any of the other SW movies are based on any one event in human history. But if someone were to say that an artist's political views, spiritul views and personal morals do not effect thier work in anyway, I would say that person was a moron. And then to say that objection, ideas and musings that relate to events surrounding the time frame of the artist's new work weren't put there purposely, then I'd say you'ld be wrong. I'm sure that Lucas used recent politics just as much as he used older political ideas in his saga.

 

"If you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it you surely will" - Abraham Lincoln

If you look hard enough for political parallels in movies you will find those as well.

"If you are not with me you are my enemy" is very different from "and the countries that harbor terrorists" IMO.

At least in the movies you know the Jedi are for democracy and the Sith are for power and dictatorship vs. reality where far too many in power only care about the next election instead of doing what is right regardless.

 

:::And then to say that objection, ideas and musings that relate to events surrounding the time frame of the artist's new work weren't put there purposely, then I'd say you'ld be wrong. I'm sure that Lucas used recent politics just as much as he used older political ideas in his saga.

Sure. But of course, NOBODY would ever have thought that GL would have had Palaptine creating an army of Tuskens (symolizing the "CIA Funded" Islamo-Fascists) to combat the Republic (USA), while, at the same time,lying about the extreme threat of the Seaparatist's (symbolized by the former Soviet Union) WMD's, in order to use the power of the Death Star (i.e. WMD's) on them, in order to benefit the Techno Union (Haliburton), as, basically, most of the moveon.org crowd in the SW Galaxy would have us believe.

GL is perfectly ambigous...

LOL

EXCEPT, when GL, or his minions make up names like "Nute Gunray" (this, allegedly, *and* it, among others, *may* be a smear on Newt Gingrich, and/or Ronald Reagan) in order to draw Commie Mutants into his politics.

HOWEVER, *IF* GL was being political in the Prequels, I would imagine that he would have had Sidious, say to Vader:

"Once you have killed all of the Hippie-ass Jedi at the Temple... go to the Mustafar System. WIPE OUT former Congressman Gingrich, and the rest of the Corpotation-loving, Christian Fundamentalist, NeoCo, GOP Leadership...

Once more, the DNC shall rule the Galaxy! And... we shall have... Peace."

Actually, that sounds like something Sidious *would* have said.

 

There is obviously politics in all the movies, just in ROTS, it actually is about as obvious as you were saying, got to be blind to miss it.

 

I'm old enough to remember Watergate, and I was 14 when ANH originally came out. I have always been under the impression that the Empire=right wing and the Rebellion=left wing in the GFFA. GL even used the phrase "storm trooper," which was a Nazi term. Plus, the Empire obviously uses extreme right-wing tactics in order to repress and silence its dissenters (Leia's and Han's torture, for example.) The Rebellion, by contrast, wants to re-establish democracy, and there are those little references to them "struggling to restore freedom" to the galaxy.

As for Palpatine being compared to Bush, I don't think it's a direct comparison so much as a reflection of the times. It would be more accurate to compare Palps with Hitler, or Nixon, or perhaps with Dick Cheney, because they seem to be more obsessed with power than Bush is. My personal opinion, and I am prepared to be flamed, is that Bush is kind of a hapless fool who is more a puppet than a real leader and is being manipulated by the members of his cabinet, who are really the ones in charge.

And Anakin & Padme don't discuss abortion because a)Padme, like most young wives, wants the baby. Anakin does too. and b)if they decided to terminate there wouldn't be a story. I think the pregnancy was an accident, but even the most effective BC can fail, even sterilization. Anakin's expression when he hears of his impending fatherhood makes it look like he's thinking, "oh, ****, how could that happen? Oh yeah, it musta been that one time when the condom broke."

I think it's normal for an artist to express political statements - look at all the musicians who do it, from John Lennon to Toby Keith. GL's being slightly to the left is no big secret, and IF he was taking shots at Bush, well, Bush has managed to make himself an awfully easy target.

And yes, I am a dangerous subversive from the People's Republic of Madison, Wisconsin. I can even remember the Dow Chemical riots and the Sterling Hall bombing. It scared the hell out of our cat.

 

GL's original conception for Palpatine was actually along the lines of the way you just described Bush. From the original Star Wars novelisation:

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

Lucas even gave him the title of "President" back then. He was actually thinking along the lines of Richard Nixon at the time. So oddly, although his potshots at Bush may be somewhat deliberate through certain lines of dialogue in Revenge of the Sith, he actually toned down references to the American political system in other respects.

 

Yeop or suffer the same career damning affects so many in hollywood have come to regret.

If you think that President Bush is the first and worst leader in history you have alot of history to read, you can also benefit from taking a current events class because there are far more despotic regimes on this earth.

Of course, it's the hip and trendy thing to hate America now-a-days... how naive.

 

:::f course, it's the hip and trendy thing to hate America now-a-days... how naive.

You know, I found that I could never be that "cool".

In all honesty, back in the 1990's, I was kind of your typical naive, Godless, Commie-Mutant, Gen-X, Grunge/Metal tool, but it got soooo damn boring, that I stopped trying to "fit in".

And... I haven't tried for a long time... a long time.

 

You can trust ME!

 

Why are people so afraid of a little political discussion?? Whatever anybody says, the Star Wars saga is obviously a very political story, just as it is a very spiritual story, and also an exciting space adventure.

To deny the politics in Star Wars is to deny a huge part of its nature. Star Wars is a story in the traditional sense, which means one of its purposes is to pass values down through the generations. It can be used as a cautionary tale, or even as a moral compass to a certain extent, and this is one of the things that separates Star Wars from the vast majority of popular culture. If people are using these films to question the real world - past, present or future - that should be celebrated, not crushed.

However, as someone pointed out earlier, Tolkein stated that there is a difference between allegory and applicability, and he went on to state that if a story is pure allegory then it loses much of its value. And Star Wars is not pure allegory - as many people have pointed out it is not meant a direct comparison to any single political or historical event (or figure). However, it does draw influence from many, many historical situations, and particularly the political events surrounding wars and revolutions. This obviously includes the French, American and Russian Revolutions, the Crusades, the Napoleonic Wars, The first and second World Wars, the Vietnam War, and - yes - the Gulf Wars. None of these are are direct analogies, but all are certainly applicable.

Personally, I see a very strong link between the actions of Palpatine and the actions of George W. Bush, particularly in Revenge of the Sith. That is my right, regardless of the intentions of George Lucas, and regardless of the opinions of others. It would equally be somebody's right to draw a parallel between the Jedi Order and the Catholic Church, which may or may not be a sensible comparison, but that is their right. And shouldn't everyone be allowed to say what they see, and invite others to say whether they share that view, or why they disagree? Nobody here is really stating things as facts - it's all just opinions, and even George Lucas's intentions shouldn't be regarded as facts (anyone who has studied film, art or literature will tell you that the meanings consciously put into a work of art by the artist are only a fraction of the meanings actually contained in that art).

Where is the harm in a little debate about these things? Must we all remain politically on-the-fence (even when George Lucas doesn't)? This isn't a debate about whose real-world politics are correct, just what people see in the films. I think the real issue may be that denying the existence of politics in Star Wars is much easier than facing the fact that the messages we see could be in conflict with our own views. The power of denial is not to be underestimated, if it means we can continuie to enjoy the films then perhaps it is perfectly valid. But it is not acceptable to force denial onto others. And I must say I find it shocking that someone would repeatedly post in a thread like this simply to say that the thread will cause conflict and should be locked! Quite bizarre...

 

Is that certain someone me? Or were you trying to avoid conflict?

Interesting.

My arguments for closing this thread weren't limited to that. The title of this thread at first was exclusively pertaining to ROTS. For some reason, out of all the threads on here that are locked for some of the most padantic of reasons, the mods decided to accept it...even going as far as to change the title.


Furthermore if you look at our friend Winston-Sith's postings you'll see that his oppinions differ greatly from Zam's. Conflict? Perhaps you should jump off the fence and join in?

Of course nothing will be accomplished, the very fact that this thread and the debate exists is that our government has successfully divided our country so that we're concerned with the word "christmas" and "gay marriage." *gasp*

Furthermore, anyone's oppinion on the political themes of ROTS (or the saga now) will greatly depend on their own point of view and will generally have little to do with the movies themselves.

Forced to provide explanation, in my oppinion threads like these belong in the senate where people are free to debate and debate while the politicians laugh and laugh.



EDIT:

See, you have a point of view just like everyone else and yes it is their right but don't you think it belongs in the Senate? Given your disregard for GL's intentions and the point of the movies in general.

 

zahl, this thread is not limited to just ROTS. We've already had this discussion and I explained to you already why this thread was to remain at the moment. If you have any further comments about it then we can talk PM, I don't mind. But don't use this thread to continue to talk off-topic.

 

Zahl, you're stirring trouble where none exists.

 

ObiWan, he had brought it up so I sought to allay is "shock." I was simply explaining why I had said what I had said and he was pointing to posts that occured well before our private discussion. If you find my views offensive in regards to the wan-ton closing of threads that aren't as interesting to the administration as this one then you are free to pm me, though the point is mute.

I'm sure ObiWan506 appreciates your help, can we at least try to stay on topic? Oh thats right, this thread is about political oppinions... not really the films themselves.


I'm from Oregon so I think Palpatine most resembles Bob Packwood. : )

 

zahl, relax. I don't know why you take such offense to this thread. Do not post off topic again.

Now I think there are many parallels between politics and the Saga ... with the obvious exception that the Empire is a dictatorship. Although one could argue that throughout the PT Palpatine gave the illusion of Democracy when really he already controlled everything.

 

Ah yes, the stale canard that the left HATES AMERICA.

If I really hated America, I would become an ex-pat. I happen to think, however, that if you love your country you would not become an ex-pat, because you would rather stay and work towards a more fair and just society.

I am an American, I love my country, and I consider myself to be patriotic. I love the ideals America was founded upon, and I believe in democracy.

At the same time, I fear the current administration. I fear the imbalance of power, in particular the increasing influence of the religious right. I fear the imperialistic policies that have led to the war in Iraq. I think we are headed down the wrong path.

I also have issues with much of American culture, especially the Cult of Money, the Cult of Celebrity (there is something seriously wrong when a nonentity like Paris Hilton gets this much attention)and the Cult of Physical Perfection. I am appalled by the situation in New Orleans which shows that racism is still deeply entrenched in our society. (I knew that anyway, but was too naive to think it's as bad as Katrina showed us.) I feel very much saddened by the emphasis on materialism and consumerism, which is totally front and center this time of year; even though I'm an atheist I admire Jesus of Nazareth as a revolutionary thinker and it's so depressing to see how our culture has corrpted Christmas.

And I firmly believe it doesn't have to be this way. That is why I still have hope that the greatness of this country will prevail.

Imagine all the people/living life in peace/You may say I'm a dreamer/But I'm not the only one/I hope someday you'll join us/And the world will live as one.
-John Lennon 1940-1980

 

Yeah, right...

Like Han said about Lando; you're my friend, Pazuzu, but I don't *trust* you.