Saga The Prequels, Episode VII and Audience Reception

Hi!

Well it has certainly been quite a while since I've posted here or contributed to any discussions. However, I thought I'd start a new thread dealing with some thoughts I've been having in light of the recent (ish) Episode VII announcement.

I wanted to put this into the "Saga" box because I believe my question has 'Saga-wide' implications. How will our knowledge of the Prequels influence the reception of the new trilogy?

At face value, this question looks like one that has been asked many times before - how will Episode VII, VIII and IX relate to or come into dialogue with the Prequels? Will they be totally ignored? Will there be the occasional reference? These are, primarily, film making questions - how will the creative team integrate 'Prequel' era references or whatever into the new trilogy (or what will they conspicuously omit).

My question is more an audience or 'reception' based one. Given that we have the prequels in the form that we do (on a personal note, I will say that I am quite fond of them) how will audiences bring their perceptions or experiences of the Prequel films to bear on their reception of the ST? Of course various 'groupings' of fans or cinema goers may be delineated, and various hypotheses supposed, but in general, will the existence of the Prequels shape and bias our reception of the ST?

How might the ST have been perceived had Lucas made them first, and bypassed the PT?

This is all very speculative, naturally, but I'd be intrigued to hear your answers/thoughts.

It's nice to be back.

 

I would say, without anything to back it up, that the ST is going to, among the general audience, be taken with a far more 'wait and see' attitude than the PT was. I don't think day 1,2 or 3 box office records will be shattered, but if word of mouth is good, momentum will grow. Had the PT not been made, the ST would be greeted with the fervour that TPM was.

 

Might move this to 7SA or SWC depending on the direction the discussion takes, but i think it's fine in Saga for now.

And QFT:

 

Its hard to say if the filmmaking team will integrate any PT references into the ST. More importantly, its hard to say if any PT story points will be expanded upon or come to fruition in the ST. Events of the PT, like it or not have long lasting effects on the galaxy. That said, I think this is all dependent on Lucas. Regardless of JJ and Kasdan on script duties, and this becoming JJ`s baby, the plot line still originated from George's head, and the intricacies of that story surely and should come from him and his original story treatment. If an important PT plot point gets expanded upon or resolved in an important way in the new trilogy, that is likely up to him. That is not saying he definitely included one, but at least he isn't a person who is clouded by his bias against the PT. Believe me, if there is one to be had, Lucas wont hesitate putting it in there.

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If the ST had been released when the PT was. Otherwise I don't think it would.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't? It would be the first new Star Wars movies after the famous original trilogy, it wouldn't matter how long fans had been waiting. Just saying.

Anyway, I imagine the films will continue plot strands and characters from the OT far more involvingly, but I hope there are PT references in there. I'm curious (and a little aprehensive) about how the fulfillment of the prophecy in ROTJ will come into it, hoping we have dark Jedi but not Sith, as it will kind of void a big part of the point of the prequels to bring the Sith back. I doubt the movies will ignore the existance of the prequels all-together, but we'll see. Like will the New Jedi Order be anything like the order of the prequels, there is a lot of opportunity to play off Luke having learnt from their perceived misgivings in the PT for example, maybe adopting a looser code.

 

But it would. Fanbases don't remain static after 30 years (which would be when the last movie was released if the prequels hadn't been made). Between '85 and '95 Star Wars was almost dead. When TPM was released 16 years later, it had a bit of help from events like the Special Editions and Shadow of the Empire in '97 which increased the build up immensly and helped put Star Wars back on the mainstream radar. The ST will also benefit from the PT since it helped to keep and increase the fanbase and overall interest in the franchise.

I'm not saying the ST wouldn't or won't be successful, just not at the level that TPM was.

 

Point seen. However I do think the fact that the original cast appear in the film(s) plus the fact that expectations may be higher with an audience that hadn't seen the PT (not that it would for me, but generally the PT was received less favourably than the originals) would play a factor. New Star Wars would feel more connected to the OT I would imagine, and fans that found the PT too different to the OT would more likely find it more familiar, thus more "Star Wars". Just speculation.

 

I think you really nailed it with this one, though we'll never really know.

And I agree with Alexrd when he says that the ST will benefit from the PT, because I think the latter did help increase the fanbase. Overall interest? I would say not so much. But it definitely brought a huge lot of new fans to the table, myself included. I doubt that I would ever have become a SW fan without the prequels.

And I think that the films will be a huge box-office success. Well, at least the first one, like was the case with TPM. You're gonna have old and new fans coming to the cinema and then you'll have people who will go and see it just because it's Star Wars and it has something to do with that Darth Vader, who was Luke's father. I doubt there's gonna be a lot of those who disliked the PT so much that they're gonna boycot the ST. I think they will at least give Episode VII a chance (again, as with TPM).
I can't say that the ST will attract greater audiences than the PT (definitely not more than the OT), but the billion dollar mark (for each movie) will fall easily, I'm 100% sure about that.

 

I guess stylistically and regarding the execution, the PT will have a certain influence on the expectations and reception of the ST. Particularly for those who came to the Star Wars universe with the prequels in the late 90's. They'll probably expect or hope something more in the vein of the prequels than the originals.
Although there has been news in the media that the new films will try to recapture the 70's feel of the OT, with a grittier and dirtier aesthetic (Daily Telegraph articles).

Storywise speaking, I don't think it will matter so much, as most of the plot issues of the prequels have been solved by ROTJ, and there is of course no reference or hints to the ST's issues and plot in the existing movies, as there was in the OT regarding the backstory...Nothing to really shape up expectations and reception to this regard.
If the story is indeed based on Lucas' original few notes and ideas, the issues and story threads should be quite different. Although, of course, references to the PT era and events should be there.

 

Bold assertions, Alienware.

 

Based on the enormous and statistically significant sample group, 'People I Know' I don't think there will be the same number who go along to the first ST film 'just because it's Star Wars' in the same way that they did TPM. For the latter, pretty much everyone I know saw that film as soon as it came out and had tickets in advance. I don't see that happening this time. There's interest and curiosity for sure, but I think many will wait for a review or two to come out first this time.

 

Agree, Yak. I think many that prefer the OT feel disappointed and burned by the PT. I think some that came to SW with the PT or prefer the PT over the OT may soon or already do share some of the wariness regarding the ST particularly because it's no longer GL's universe as such. I fear the ST will only fracture the fanbase more.

 

I think also that apart from people's feelings about the PT, new SW material just doesn't have the 'specialness' factor that it did in the late 90's. There's vast amounts of EU stuff out there now, games, cartoon series, merchandise everywhere you look. A new film is still a big event, but not in the way it once was.

 

Likewise true and with the current EU being disregarded, cherry picked and railroaded every which way I think the ST Era will also be one where many fans particularly the older segments may be wary to invest into the new stuff because now we know it could become invalid any second and over saturation and playing down to kids also are factors.

 

Cowards.

 

I have to say, CA, you make some good points. I hope you are wrong though.

 

I have no idea. And I suspect that no one really knows the answers to your questions, aside from Lucas, Abrams, Disney and the screenwriters.

 

Speculating of course, but I feel the ST will draw more from the OT than the prequels. Not necessarily because of the characters returning, but Disney being in the stew now (and the main chef lol).

And if it's a good movie (and gets good reviews), I can see Episode VII surpassing TPM at the box office.

 

About what?

If Episode VII doesn't fail miserably at the box-office, then it should have no problem passing 1 billion dollars, especially because of a much bigger foreign market than at the time of previous SW films and inflation of ticket prices. But I said it will probably still fall somewhat short of its predecessors regarding audience numbers.

And I think public awareness will increase considerably once we get more info on production and some teasers or trailers.

Actually, having thought about it, I think the situation with the ST could be similar to that of The Hobbit movies. People didn't really expect those movies to be made, but the first one still made it just over $1 billion and the second one is coming close with $950 million as of April 11th.
I am confident that the ST can top that, though I do think that many people will be a lot more confused with the storyline/timeline of events before they actually see EP7.

 

Personally, I feel the same way about Episode VII as I did about Episode I fifteen years ago: cautiously optimistic. We haven't had any confirmed cast yet besides Peter Mayhew and R2D2 (though I assume Kenny's probably too old for it now). I'm curious to see what elements (if any) will be borrowed from the EU, because I really like the idea of Luke restoring the Jedi Academy, and Leia conversing with Anakin's ghost. The latter would be a great prequel connection, by casting Hayden for one scene with Carrie Fisher (since spirits don't age).

 

I'm not worried about the box office returns for this third trilogy. I'm wondering if I will like it.

 

I think some outright references to the prequels will be in the background. For example, maybe a Gungan will walk by the camera in the background of a shot, or some other species or creature that the prequels introduced. There could be some sort of reference to podracing or other big prequel events as well.

Others I suspect will be vague. For example, I'm sure we'll have references to the Old Republic, the Clone Wars, the Jedi purge, and so forth. Presumably any references to them will be similar to how they were referenced in the originals, namely without much detail. Only now, as a result of the prequel era, we don't need more detail (unlike the OT where we wanted it). We know what those things are now.

Then there's Anakin Skywalker. Narratively, I would imagine that his shadow will loom large over at least Episode VII. The saga, up until this point, has been about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, so they'll have to spend some time on his legacy. I'm sure they won't use too many details, but our knowledge of the prequels will now color our perception of any part of the story that deals with Anakin (for better or for worse). If the Sith return, we'll also want to know why that happened if Anakin was the Chosen One.

Finally, there are more subtle ways that the prequels could be integrated into the sequels. Specifically, how the prequels shaped the entire franchise as a whole. The prequels, also for better or for worse, defined what Jedi are like. Episode I introduced us to a Jedi Order, which changed perceptions of what the Jedi were like. It was a formalized, very bureaucratic organization. If Episode VII has a similar or different kind of New Jedi Order, then our perception of it will be colored by what we know from the prequels.

The existence of the prequels, and the mixed reception to them, will probably affect the hype surrounding the films. When Episode I came out, Star Wars fans saw George Lucas as someone who could do no wrong. Now we know he can do a lot of wrong. Rather than having huge hype, I think there will be a lot of cautiousness, either cautious optimism or just a lack of preconceptions in general.

Preconceptions is also important. Fans who grew up with the originals had 16 years to think about the backstory of Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi before Episode I came out. Although I do think Episode I is a bad movie, I think the preconceptions from 1983 to 1999 played a huge part in peoples' feelings and made it feel as if they had been betrayed by George Lucas. Episode VII doesn't have that. It's not a prequel, so no one really knows what's going to happen.

For those who liked the prequels, I think the new filmmaking team will be treated with some skepticism. A prequel fan is not going to want to see a new Star Wars movie that either meta-criticizes the prequels or totally ignores their existence. They're going to wonder if it's a good thing that George Lucas is not making these movies, and whether it was smart to hand the reins over to a group of filmmakers that, by and large, have never made a Star Wars movie before. That's a good example of how what people who don't like the PT embrace is actually being treated with some reluctance by people who do like the PT. So Episode VII needs to be a film for everyone.

Probably the same way the prequels were. I think the fact that they were prequels had a lot to do with their problems, because prequels are hard to write when you're standing in the shadow of something else, but ultimately George Lucas was the problem with those movies. He's a pretty good storyteller but a mediocre writer and director, and he became someone who wasn't very collaborative. He made all of the important decisions for the prequels without really any creative input or pushback from anyone else, which was a much, much different experience from when he made the originals. It was the downside to his quest for ultimate control over his films. He got that control, and as it turns out he wasn't very good at making all the decisions. No single person should be the writer, the executive producer, the director, the financier, and the studio chief all at the same time. Writing is inherently collaborative.

Had he made the ST first, it presumably would have had mixed reviews as well. We'd probably now be sitting here talking about how the reception of the sequels would alter our perception of J.J. Abrams' Episode I.

 

I think that many of the superficial, moviemaking issues that plagued the prequels will be fixed. Pacing, dialogue, acting, boring financial/political plot points... the sequels will be much improved over the prequels in all these areas, and I wouldn't be surprised if the general public, after some initial reluctance, came to the conclusion that "Star Wars is fixed!" I think the response will be similar to the first Pirates of the Caribbean: at first, people latched on to the fact that Disney was making a movie out of a ride and considered it a silly or shameful project done solely for money or because "they were out of ideas." But when they saw the movie, they really responded well. I would expect something similar for Episode VII: at first people will focus on late-show style teasing ("Does Luke use a cane? HAR HAR HAR OH I'M SO CREATIVE"), but when they see the good job Disney will do on the moviemaking aspects, a large majority will be won over.

I don't know that the meaning and mythology of the sequels will connect properly to I-VI in terms of things that fans ponder. I think it's really more likely that they won't, and that convoluted EU explanations will be spawned to patch the holes. But in terms of entertainment, just as an action-adventure film, I think we can be confident Episode VII will be a long-term success with the masses.