The problem with lightsaber duels in the Clone Wars...

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by CobaltBlue, Nov 24, 2012.

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  1. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

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    Or Grievous simply did not ever claim to be trained by Dooku until that point in RotS. It could be that Grievous had been using other type of lightsaber training plus his cybernetic enchancements to battle Kenobi. Then, he gets Dooku to train him (before they meet again in RotS), or Grievous is only claiming to be trained by Dooku to strike fear into Kenobi - a bluff so to speak. There's lots of ways to explain that line.
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    That line sounded extra corny when I watched ROTS during the Spike marathon this past weekend...
    it felt VERY out of place.
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  3. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Maybe Dooku is still in the process of training Grievous. Maybe that's why he was more ontop of his game in the Young Jedi arc.
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  4. ninjaofthenight801 Jedi Master

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    That would be a cool segment to see. A re-do of the micro series training session with Dooku and Grievous.
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  5. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

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    I must have missed Grievous' training in the micro series. What season was it in?
  6. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    It's in Chapter 22, which is in Season Three, which is in Volume 2 of the DVDs.
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  7. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

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    Watching now, thanks!
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  8. CobaltBlue Jedi Padawan

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    Oh come on.

    That part of the film is simply supposed to be a surprise; Obi-Wan confronts Grievous - but what's this? Grievous can use lightsabers - and he has four arms!

    The reason he says Dooku trained him is to give it authenticity.

    That's all it is. Grievous uses lightsabers in the Clone Wars mini-series, but that was seen by a small number of people compared to those who would watch Episode III.

    When Episode III was written, Lucas had no idea there would be a CGI animated series years later that would have Obi-Wan fighting Grievous repeatedly.

    Note the trouble the CGI Clone Wars has to to in order to avoid Anakin meeting Grievous (as they meet for the first time in Episode III). If Lucas had planned that far ahead, he wouldn't have done that.
  9. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    "Sloppy. You have no technique... Sadly, you don't have the force to call upon for assistance, when you get pwned... So if the element of surprise ever fails; as I'm sure it will, I suggest running away."
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  10. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 19, 2012
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    I would like TCW team to add more dark acolytes in to TCW even if they are only one of villains, it would be better than watching another Grievous vs Obi duel or Anakin vs Dooku duel. Dooku and Grievous are now the only separatist villains with lightsabers on TCW, which is a problem considering that it is normally the main 3 Jedi that are used for lightsaber duels.
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  11. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    The reason Maul has actually been great for the show is he sorta became an OC since his face is unknown which adds more excitement to fights. I agree with you alot. It would be nice to see some more, very smart villains under te Seperatist flag. Maybe something like a Jedi who deserts the republic and takes up the Seperatist cause and because something of a chaotic good villain, maybe a few of those or some more evil force sensative baddies trained by dooku.
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  12. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    I'd like to see more OC villains. And by that I DO NOT mean a new villain that gets offed in the same episode (or even the same arc) that he appears, but someone that sticks around for a while before dying, and could take out some of the OC Jedi/characters whose fates are not handled in the films along the way.

    I kind of think Grievous' constant failures should be addressed. Someone with a track record like his is not an excellent leader, but someone worthy of demotion as he has lost ships under his command, failed to deal with Kit Fisto, and even when he "wins" (YJ arc), the Jedi still get the last laugh. I would have hoped that they would fold Grievous' failures into the Dooku revenge plot.

    Dooku lost Asajj because of Sidious, and he tried Savage but lost him due to Asajj's treachery. Even though Grievous is not a Sith, I could have seen Dooku taking on training Grievous to be his new "assassin" and give him lightsaber training to be more formidable and be a worthy right hand in replacement for previous failures. Rather than having Grievous continue to be worthless 90% of the time, followed by 10% semi-wins (more like draws).
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 28, 2012
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  13. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I'd love to see some smart and geniunely threatening reoccurring OT villains who are with the Seperatist cause rather than just Cad Bane. Preferably someone who actually is a sypathetic villain so it would be possible to root for him against even a hero like Obi-wan. More OCs need to be introduced to improve such a characters track record.

    Great theory on Grievous sucking. I am sticking with that he is still being trained by Dooku as to why Grievous is on top of things. Maybe we'll see some of this. If Grievous continues to kick ass in TCW from her on out then it works.
    Last edited by Seerow, Nov 28, 2012
  14. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV - Vacationing and stuff

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    Even though I know what this all means, on the outside it must look very complex and confusing. "Wait, season 3 is in volume 2? And what, are these seasons 8 episodes long, or something, with season 3 only being up to ep. 22????" :p
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Nov 28, 2012
  15. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Confusing... the Microseries does sound like a manga series when talking about volumes, chapters, and episodes.
  16. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

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    The problem with most TCW duels is that the show DOES Not use the resources it has like locations and fighters.

    Most of the duels in the show are duels between Anakin vs Dooku and the others are Obi vs Grievous.
    At one point the Anakin vs Dooku duels blur into one mess of repeating things.

    I mean when are we going to get Plo Koon vs Grievous or Maul vs Plo Koon like in one of the comics or Grievous vs other Jedi.
  17. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Well, they are predictable. Obi-Wan vs. Grievous isn't so exciting because we know both have to stay alive until ROTS, and while Grievous can get hacked up and lose limbs (only to be replaced by identical mechanical limbs), Obi-Wan can't really suffer any kind of injury. By the time of ESB, Luke gets a hand replaced with a realistic looking one that does not look at all unnatural (until it is blown open by a blaster shot). I know some fans would have an uproar, but I personally would applaud it if Filoni and Lucas had the boldness to have Obi-Wan lose a hand or leg while fighting Grievous, only for it to be replaced with improved technology like that which replaces Luke's hand.

    But even then it would just be shock value of "hey, betcha didn't know that Obi-Wan's left hand was a fake throughout ROTS and ANH!" At the end of the day, neither can die and it becomes more a matter of who is going to run away next. And while Anakin gets better and better in fighting Dooku, he still can't win until ROTS.

    And then when Dave and Lucas want the bad guys to have a victory, they throw in an OC or someone that isn't around in ROTS. For instance, Savage killing Adi Gallia or Maul and Savage killing the twi'lek and nikto Jedi (I don't know their names).

    Who do you think is going to win the Savage/Maul vs. Sidious fight? At best it would be inconclusive if one side has to run away (say if Sidious has to flee before being discovered when Obi-Wan shows up, or Maul and Savage some how slip away). If Maul and Savage actually rose up and overpowered Sidious, and showed tangible evidence for why a Sith master should fear the Rule of Two being broken in having Sidious unable to deal with the pair that is united against him, well that would be ballsy and I would actually enjoy that. But instead we have Sidious who we know must survive and Maul and Savage whose fates are inconclusive. If anyone is to win, I'm guessing Sidious. Maul can sort of be treated as an OC as @Seerow pointed out, but OCs just seem to be used as canon fodder in the long run as expendable characters since anyone that appears in ROTS cannot die.

    If it were revealed tomorrow that the season finale would showcase a fight between Grievous and Oppo Rancicis, my money would be on Grievous, just because Grievous can't die yet and Oppo Rancicis is an expendable character since he is not in ROTS. Preferably, I'd see Oppo Rancicis win that hypothetical fight, break the mold of predictability and not be too eager to kill that character off or have him lose just because he's not around in ROTS. They could always kill him off later.

    If Eeth Koth found himself in a fight with Maul, it could go either way, but I would expect Eeth to die since his fate is up in the air, he hasn't done anything important lately, and because it would allow the badguys to win because of it... by eliminating a character that we haven't had the chance to care about. Have Eeth Koth win and I'd be pleasantly surprised.

    Stop falling into patterns and making it predictable.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 29, 2012
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  18. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Yes! Less predictability is what TCW needs more than anything. I like the whole "Its the Journey" thing but the show would be so much better. We could actually place bets on who would win a fight between a character with an unknown fate and Grievous. - "@TaradosGon, how much you whanna put on Grievous killing this guy? $20? Lets go!" - "Seerow... gambling is wrong!" - We can't really get that much joy from Plo, its just going to end with one of them running away. There won't be any serious ass whoopings. This show needs more ass whoopings!

    I agree with you that most OCs in TCW aren't used very long. TCW didn't realy get me to care about Nahdar Vebb's death. Compare that to Clone Trooper Hardcase who had four episodes of rough development. That hurt. Some long running reoccuring OCs are what the show needs or the use of more characters who don't have an explicit fate and could be used like OCs. It would be shocking to see Obi-wan lose an arm but wouldn't carry much weight. We saw him get beat to within an inch of his life last season and it just made me feel sorry for him.

    Maul really is a great thing to happen to the show because he adds much needed unpredictability. It enhances his competency and the thread level he poses. All the more reason to look forward to the big Mando/Mail arc coming up. Even just killing the random Twi'lik Jedi who only stood in the background before in Revival it enhanced the story. But imagine if she had been developed more? Then had an actual duel with Maul and Savage? The sense of lose and the enhanced credibility knowing she was a great swordsman and a kind person would have gone a long way. Adi Gallia's was actually well thought out since TCW pretty much built on "Grievous Intrigue" where Obi-wan was saved by her and then here failed to return the favor in the worst way possible. Your gonna carry that weight space cowboy. But they probably should have avoided using her and bothered to develop on OC.
    Last edited by Seerow, Nov 29, 2012
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    While not exactly worded in that fashion, Dooku does severely criticise Grievous's lightsaber skills when he's training, in Labyrinth of Evil.
  20. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Dooku was not exactly one to inspire his previous apprentices with positive reinforcement. Now take a non-Force sensitive who has the audacity to think he's going to be a Jedi's equal by sacrificing his body for a machine, and I'd think that deep down Dooku is disgusted by this fellow that thinks that a metal body can put a non-Force sensitive on par with someone who has spent their entire life mastering the Force.
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  21. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Savage practically curled into a ball comes to mind.
  22. CobaltBlue Jedi Padawan

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    Characters don't have to die to make it dramatic. Dooku decisively defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan in Episode II, as Vader did Luke in Empire.

    There is a great battle between Anakin and Ventress in the 2D Clone Wars that a) has a decisive winner, b) furthers Anakin's characterisation and c) doesn't kill anyone.

    It would have been cool if, for instance, Ventress and Savage had defeated and nearly killed Dooku. Then he went away, licked his wounds, and came back to show them the true power of a master Sith. Rather than the entertaining but predictable stalemate that we got.
  23. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Death does not equal drama just as it doesn't make something darker. The point is original characters can provide more entertainment in the duels because the possibly they can die and be injured is greater and more interesting.
    Last edited by Seerow, Nov 29, 2012
  24. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    I agree that characters don't have to die, or be open to the possibility of death, for something to be dramatic.

    But we're not talking about theory here, we're talking about TCW, which needs all the help it can get.
  25. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    And more OCs will give alot of help.

    The broken record.
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