The prophecy is coming true

probing


dark side







Sorry. I agree, it's just those words together are funny.

 

It sounds more believable than your theory.

 

Heh heh.

 

If my memory is correct, Mace Windu will utter those words in Episode II. Perhaps, in addition to being a Jedi Master, Yoda is also a proctologist.

 

This coming from AJA who has an old Ben icon with him holding a glow stick.

 

Yep, I was right.

MACE WINDU
Probing the dark side can be a
dangerous process. he could be in
seclusion for days... May The
Force Be With You.

Oddly enough, the same jokes cropped up last month. Makes me feel slightly less clever now. I think we should avoid killing this thread before PD has a chance to post more info.

 

its not that they are specifically using the darkside to see into the future. its that when you look into the future AT the darkside that you must use it in order to actually see it.

 

What?

 

I don't think a Jedi can use the dark side at all. It's more like in seeing the dark side, a Jedi gets a taste of it and that temptation is dangerous.

 

And that's why Yoda has to be the one to do it.

 

Now this whole leads me to one of my theories concerning Dooku and his turn to the dark side and becoming a Sith.

I have for some time now theorized that Dooku not only studied Sith history and the prophecy of the Chosen One, but that he had himself dabbled with the dark side to some degree that it shaped some his own beliefs about the Force itself.
Anyway, it is my belief also that Dooku was not only intrigued about the past, but the future as well. I believe his study of the Sith, the dark side and the prophecy of the Chosen One caused this intrigue. I believe he interprets from his studies that the coming of the Chosen One also meant the reemergence of the Sith and the rise of the dark side. So I believe Dooku desires to "see" the future with what he has learned as a Jedi over the years and that this area may well have been an area he was very gifted in through the Force.

His desire to see the future causes him to see much more than expected. I believe he see Qui-Gon discovering the Chosen One, the fall and demise of the Jedi order, and the reemergence of the Sith and their ruling the galaxy, and that the Chosen One will play a significant role in the fall of the Jedi order. Dooku in his desire to see, causes him to delve further. He sees things that disturb and anger him. He goes further into seeing the future that he even feels the dark side and gets a taste of its power.
He may even see something concerning Palpatine.


Anyway, I have a feeling that Yoda is not the first to "probe" the dark side and see the future. I believe Dooku did it first, and this is in part why he is now a Sith.
He embraced what he saw was the inevitable.

Qui-Gon finding the Chosen One, the reemergence of the Sith, and Qui-Gon's death by the Sith meant to Dooku that the end had come for the Jedi. He would now become part of what he saw coming to rule. The Sith!



Darth Sin!

 

Very interesting thread, Yoda in seclusion thread hinted at these ideas.....thanx PD.
I think the idea is that darkside is riseing and the Jedi, partcularly the senior Jedi can sense it...however they can't clearly see how or why or who is the person responsible for the rise of evil....
Their expectation is that Anakin will be the one to restore balance...a savior. But Anakin will rebel against this...Until Return of the jedi when he in fact does restore balance by killing the emperor....

 

Ack - I'm confused about the tf.n post about Sidious being able to "literally put the wool over {the Jedis'} eyes." What -literal- wool is being pulled? Literal means "drop the symbolism - it's word-for-word real," unless this is a new dictionary definition. What wool?

 

I concur with Dolf's analysis. I would add to that by saying that Jedi are faced with a more difficult task in that they must try to maintain a broad awareness so that they can be of help to those in need. At the beginning of TPM, Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to focus on the here and now and that 'your focus determines your reality'. It seems that maintaining focus is a difficult task for a young Jedi. As the Sith have a narrow focus (obtaining absolute power) and have no concern for others, it may be easier for them to dwell on the future as well as the here and now. Simply put, the Jedi have a lot on their minds... they are concerned about maintaining balance.

 

Everyone!!!!! You are all forgeting the moral of Star Wars! How does Luke defeat the Dark Side? I Corinthians: "But now abide faith hope and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love. Love never fails!". That is how Luke defeated the Dark Side! Luke had Faith that his father would turn back. He had Love for his father despite his evil deeds.
And he had Hope that his father would turn and fulfill his destiny. That was what The Emperer tried to destroy when he was telling Luke that his friends would not make it! He knew that if Luke fell before his Love for his father changed Vader that the change would never take place. And did you notice that Yoda can see bad and good times when Palpatine can only see victorys for the Sith. When has Palpatine ever foreseen a defeat? This shows you how tunnel-visioned the Sith are!
And have any of you ever read the Wrinkle In Time Trilogy? Well Charles falls because he has to look in the evil mans red eyes to probe his mind and discover what he was and what his intentions where! Lord of the Rings, Denethor looks in the Black Ball and sees Sauron's incredible might, loses heart and kills himself! So this shows you how dangerous it is to probe the Enemys thoughts. Another example is Saruman. He looked in the Black Ball until he became evil because he had probed the Enemys mind so much. And how was Charles saved? Margeret loved him AND showed it. "Love never fails" 1st Corinthians: 13.

 

True, that did lead to some dangerous happenings.
However, Yoda is the oldest living Jedi, with more then enough experience to delve into the Dark Side and control himself enough simply to view the means by which the enemy moves.
It's the lesser of two evils in a way.

 

So Yoda it going to touch the dark side to figure out what is going on?

It kinda makes sense. If you want to figure out what your enemy is up to, you have to think (or in this case, uses the same power) as him.

 

Hello All,

Great thread going on here.. I thought I might add a few thoughts to the discussion.. I do agree that Palp must be clouding things up for the Jedi in order to mask his involvement in the darkside..

I liken it to the simple concept of focus.. Most people can only handle so much input at once and still be able to focus on a single thought. So if you are trying to perform science equations in your head while I'm singing "Mary had a little lamb" into you ears over and over, you may have a tough time focusing.

Perhaps for that reason, Yoda does go into hiding to "take a step back" from the situation and use the force to try and see the forest from the trees. In that manner it's bascially a matter of Palp's ability to cloud the situation vs Yoda's ability to focus and break through the clouds.

Now Luke.. Well as was stated before Love played a big part. You'll notice that Luke uses love and the "I sense the good in you" approach to get to Vadar. Simply put, Palp sent Vadar to master Luke, but Luke was able to influence Vadar to focus on their relationship as father and son long enough to turn the tide. Was Luke better than Vadar? I wouldn't say that so much, perhaps he just used the right rock to knock down Goliath.

Obi-wan and even Yoda were too close to the situation when Anakin fell to the darkside.. It took the new kid to come along and enter the fight with a different angle.

As far as do you need to play with the darkside to see it? Well I'd say yes and no.. In order to focus and understand anything you need to have knowledge of it and study it. This would suggest that knowing a bit about the Darkside is necessary.. Considering the fact that the Sith have been in hiding for so long, it might take a bit more effort to study it.. The more energy put into the study the greater chance that you can be seduced? From what I've read it would seem that is what happens to Dooku... The moth just got a tab bit too close to the flame..

Michael

 

I think the darkside is so hard to see, because there is so much evil in the galaxy. Trying to find a stih with the force is worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack. Any Jedi may try to sense the stih, but slavery, government corruption, or bounty hunters come up. When the stih were ready to reveal themselvies the Jedi just felt a distrubance, not the return of there dreaded enemy. Much like Ben knew something bad happened in ANH, but not till they reached what was left of Alderaan did he know the specifics.

That is why I think Yoda goes into issolation (maybe Dagobah), so he has no distractions in trying to see the specifics. There are just to many varibles, even for the force.

 

how about this...

the force is the force is the force. there is no 'dark force' or 'light force' - the difference is only in wether you use the force for good or bad.

stiking out other than in defense is bad and classed as a dark use of it, as are things like force-choking, and looking into the future - luke does all of these as part of his conflict with turning to the dark side.. something which many people seem to overlook is that luke is, in fact, a badass.. qui gonn or obi-wan would never have done things like force-choked the gamorreans or blown up jabba's barge, laden with innocent bystanders, or even threaten jabba with destruction in the first place.

so, the point - all jedi can look into the future perfectly well. however, it is against all their doctrines and beliefs to do, as that would involve using the dark side, which is something they can not do even once.. else it would forever dominate their destiny. this is the reason for yoda's apprehension in the spoiler.

i cant stress enough the importance of the whole trained to avoid the dark side thing.. this is what so much of the training must comprise of. after all.. only 20 have ever left.

 

Yes, if you will read my last post here, I think that Dooku probed the dark side in order to peer into the future. He not only saw more than he expected, but he also tasted the dark side, of which becomes seeds for his eventual turn to the dark side and becoming a Sith.


Darth Sin!

 

--"as that would involve using the dark side, which is something they can not do even once.. else it would forever dominate their destiny. "---

This is even wrong, because if it were true, then the good Anakin would never have been able to return from being Vader. Maybe only because he was the chosen one was he able to reverse the "forever destiny dominating" clause???

 

"..all jedi can look into the future perfectly well. however, it is against all their doctrines and beliefs to do, as that would involve using the dark side..."


I think you're wrong. All the movies so far indicate that seeing the future, seeing things before they happen does not strictly involve the dark side. It's very much a Jedi trait as Qui-Gon said. The key is the Jedi aren't ignorant and greedy. They use the Force and it's power for good. The Sith, just by their very nature of being able to tap into the Force, can also see the future but they use it for their own corrupt gains.

 

Perhaps it depends on what side you are on. For instance, Palpy could only see the future according to the dark side, he didn't see the alliance or vader winning because these were "lightside" oriented. Likewise, Luke could only see his father's goodness, but not his evil. He had no doubt that the good "light" would come out of Vader, and he would return to Anakin. Palpy knew that Luke would seek out Vader *eventually* because he was "forseeing" Luke's fall to the Darkside, but Luke had his own agenda and it was redeeming his father Anakin. This may be why Palpy couldn't sense Luke on the planet because this all had to do with the Lightside of the Force. It was stated earlier "tunnel vision", perhaps this is the tunnel. And Qui-Gon did say "your focus determines your reality" everything fits in with that.

It is more likely however, that I am totally off.

 

Excellent contributions everyone!
I really like the idea Darth_Oracle that Palpatine couldn't sense Luke because his using the "light side" of the Force. If Palpatine had realized the strength of Luke's faith in his father, he would have probably killed him right away. Yes somehow, this is something Palpatine missed.

Palpatine had a great overconfidence is own infallible ability to succeed, that also is why he didn't realize that Vader could turn against him.

I don't think any of the arguments so far have been mutually exclusive, I think facets of all of them could be true. that the Jedi have trouble seeing the dark side, it takes a certain amount of awareness of the dark side to see its intent, etc, etc.

very good discussion.