Saga The prophecy of the Chosen One...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Polydroxol, Feb 14, 2014.

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When did Anakin/Darth Vader bring balance to the Force?

The Jedi Purge. 1 vote(s) 2.0%
Killing Darth Sidious. 28 vote(s) 54.9%
Both, they equally contributed to the Force being balanced. 18 vote(s) 35.3%
Other 4 vote(s) 7.8%
  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    No offense meant, but how exactly is it difficult to decipher?

    The Jedi believe that the Sith have been extinct for 1000. After Qui-Gon has a run-in with an extremely-Force sensitive boy and a warrior trained in the Jedi arts, though, he begins to suspect this may be a child of prophecy and that the Sith have returned. The Jedi are obviously skeptical about this given that they've believed the Sith were extinct. By the end of TPM, though, they're convinced that the Sith have indeed returned and thus Anakin may be the Chosen One Qui-Gon suggested.

    I guess I'm not seeing how this is complex. The characters' positions are pretty clearly laid out.
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  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's less that people have trouble deciphering and more that when too many people are talking at once, other people get confused.
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  3. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    star 4
    None taken, PH. I just don't see why the Jedi are initially so convinced that the Sith couldn't have returned and then so suddenly sure that they have. Is it because Anakin accidentally blew up a ship, or because some mysterious warrior killed Qui Gon that made them change their mind? Why were they skeptical about Maul after his first encounter with Quigon, but not later?

    On a wider note, I don't really see any real logic in the force choosing someone to balance it in the first place, but that's probably another debate for another day.
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  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    I think it has to do with the length of time that no one has seen the Sith. It's been 1000 years, after all, and one run-in with a warrior trained in the Jedi Arts is not going to change their minds. To the Council's credit, they do order Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to investigate and find out the identity of their attacker. With Obi-Wan's further confrontation with Maul (and his killing of Qui-Gon) rather than the brief battle they had earlier, it doesn't surprise me that they were convinced.

    In regards to Anakin, Qui-Gon's conclusion was based primarily on the fact that Anakin had an unusually high Force level and was conceived by the midichlorians. Given that the Sith have re-appeared, Anakin suddenly popping up as the Chosen One seems rather too serendipitous, wouldn't you say?
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  5. Lulu_Mars Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 2
    Sometimes, people just overcomplicate things in their heads. Especially when a discussion gets out of hand.

    I think it's fairly obvious that balance is brought when Anakin kills Sidious. The only interpretation of the prophecy that's mentioned in the movies is that balance means the destruction of the Sith. Sure, it may have been misread, but what we see in ROTJ supports that view, IMO. Anakin is brought back and then he kills the last Sith Lord. After that, it's all done. Anakin's done his part. He's fulfilled his destiny and brought freedom to the galaxy.

    The next trilogy may retcon it, but in its current state, this is what the prophecy means.
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  6. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    star 4
    Yeah, I've devoted enough hours of my life to this particular topic already, PH, so I'll spare the good folk of TFN another serving. I see your points, but I'm still not really convinced about the whole prophecy / chosen one / immaculate conception storyline.
  7. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    The whole Chosen One storyline was dumb anyway IMO.
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  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Not convinced about what?
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  9. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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  10. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Any story that goes the "Chosen One" route is poor writing IMO.
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  11. Darth Raiden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2013
    star 3

    Hey hey Mortal Kombat is actually pretty damn good!!1
  12. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    idk what you're talking about.
  13. Darth Raiden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2013
    star 3
    Mortal Kombat deals with several chosen ones: Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Scorpion the defenders of earth etc
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  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Really? Why?
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  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Not just that but...why would there be an existing prophecy regarding the destruction of the Sith and bringing balance to the Force if the Sith were believed extinct already?
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  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The prophecy existed long before the Sith were thought extinct. The Jedi Council believes the Sith Order to be extinct because of what happened at the end of the last war and coupled with their belief that the future is in motion, they concluded the prophecy is not accurate. They didn't want to believe that someone had survived the last war and has been in hiding for a thousand years. It is their arrogance biting them in the ass.
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  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    yeah...that again. Whatever the Jedi are doing is a sign of their arrogance. So...everybody still knows this ancient prophecy even though it has been believed defunct for a thousand years...?
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  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Probably not the only event that did or didn't come to pass. It would be kept in the Archives as a teaching device about seeing the future and how some things will come to pass and others, not so much.
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  19. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    But (and this is yet another example of the lack of logical basis in the PT 'Jedi as arrogant' trope) what reason prior to his meeting with Maul does Qui-Gon have to believe that the Sith have returned? And yet...he - without evidence - sees a reason for believing in this long abandoned 'prophecy'(which would be, what..? A lesson in how insecure prophecy is?) is 'insightful' whereas the Jedi, acting on their knowledge that they have available are 'arrogant' for being unaware of something they have no evidence of....

    These are some pretty mischevious ideas and, now that I come to address them directly, I understand my distaste for the PT ever more.

    You see...insight and 'truth' are to be found in 'just knowing', while 'arrogance' is defined as believing what is testable. Hmmm. The 'wisest Jedi' of the PT is a belligerent dogmatist who believes he alone has the 'ear' of the Force - where the wise Jedi of the OT teach that you should question all you think you know - learn for yourself. The OT addresses that visions are to be mistrusted, that what is is, that one's actions now create that now and affect the future. The PT addresses that prophecy is truth, that the future is already in place, that one's actions are just part of a gambit that is being played out over your head, that a greater power will put hings right - you just have to have faith.

    There are major philosophical breaches between the two sagas.
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  20. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Because you know the prophecy will be fulfilled. It loses all its suspense. For example, if I were to watch the saga 1-6, in the scene where Palpatine is frying Luke, and I see Vader's conflict, I know he is going to sacrifice himself to save his son, because I was told throughout the Prequel Trilogy that this was going to happen. Boring.:rolleyes:

    Worse is that a "Chosen One" Prophecy is a paradox in itself. What if Anakin was having a bad day (or sacrificed himself) during the Clone Wars and a Battle Droid shot him in the head? Unless he has some invincible healing powers, he wouldn't survive that, therefore "failed" prophecy. What if Vader's TIE Interceptor was the one shot by the Millennium Falcon instead of his wing mate? No more prophecy.

    Finally, the Anakin "Chosen One" Prophecy sucks the most because he wasn't even that special to begin with in Episode IV (15 minutes of screentime, anyone?) Once it was apparent Vader was Anakin Skywalker, father of Luke, Lucas felt he needed to make him "special" in the PT, thus making the character have all this pressure thrown on his shoulders and made less relateable IMO.
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  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I'll break it down for you again.

    1. Qui-gon meets Anakin. He talks to him and gets to know the boy. During the course of the dinner, Qui-gon notes that the boy has the potential to be a Jedi.

    2. This leads him to ask Shmi about him and he finds her answers to be strange. At this point, he doesn't think that he is the Chosen One, but he is curious.

    3. After the Midichlorian test, he's even more confused as he says to Obi-wan.

    4. Darth Maul's attack was surprising and troubling since he uses the Force to fight him. He knows that a Jedi wouldn't attack another and his appearance doesn't match those of the Jedi that he knows of.

    5. By the time they arrive at Coruscant, Qui-gon has drawn the only conclusion that makes sense to him.

    The thing is that the Jedi don't know if the prophecy is true, which Ki-Adi, Yoda and Mace talk about during the course of the PT. They have doubts in TPM which is in the Council meeting. In AOTC, Mace puts an emphasis on "If" when talking to Obi-wan about Anakin. In ROTS, Yoda and Mace have grave doubts and Obi-wan only stops believing after the duel. But note in ROTS, Yoda says that Anakin should take his visions with a grain of salt and we see the changes in the second vision to what actually happens.

    Right but Yoda says that they might have been wrong, thus with Luke, you can speculate that maybe it was Luke all along and not his father. Then you get to that point you're thinking that Luke is screwed thus it has to be Vader who has to save him. That was a given even before the prophecy that Vader was going to wind up having to choose.

    No, it means that he wasn't the Chosen One. Dude was burned up and he still survived what should have been fatal injuries.

    Actually, Luke was supposed to be the special one. But he dropped that aspect. He revisited it in Anakin not to make him more special, but to make his path different from his son's.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Mar 5, 2014
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  22. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I wouldn't say there's no evidence, though, only one kenobi. Qui-Gon has just met a boy extraordinarily powerful in the Force -- who can pod race (without any training) when no other human can do it and whose midichlorian count is off the charts. More than that, though, this boy's mother claims that he doesn't have a father which fits with the prophecy. Then, as Qui-Gon attempts to take the boy with him off the planet, they are attacked by a dark warrior trained in the Jedi arts. I think, for most people, that would be cause for suspicion.

    Where I see the Jedi as being arrogant is their presumption that the Sith could not have returned without them knowing. Notably, it is Yoda who reminds them that the Dark Side is hard to see. I don't think the Jedi are arrogant for asking Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to investigate. But I do see a certain amount of arrogance and complacency in their belief that the Sith could not reappear without them knowing. It's made more stark, I think, in that the Sith are clearly hiding right under their noses.

    I think that you're interpreting what occurred very narrowly. As I pointed out, Anakin is rather odd and unusually gifted. That alone would pique people's interest but Shmi further fulfills an important part of the prophecy by telling Qui-Gon that Anakin had no father. And there's basically no way she could know about the prophecy (being a slave on a remote planet). That and Maul's sudden appearance would certainly raise a few eyebrows. Qui-Gon I would say is actually the opposite of a dogmatist. Obi-Wan even laments that he would have a place on the Council if he just followed the Code. Instead, Qui-Gon does what he thinks is right. He's not perfect, of course, in that he can be very rigid in the certainty of his belief, but he goes out of his way to help the downtrodden, the weak, and the seemingly useless. Additionally, I think, again, you're looking at this backwards. Much of the wisdom of the Jedi of the OT had to be learned. That's what wisdom is -- it means learning from your mistakes. You need experience to be wise, hence why it is a trait most associated with older individuals. It is, for example, Anakin's firm belief that Padmé will die unless he can "save her" that causes her death. He is so certain that his vision will come to pass that he looks for a loophole -- a power that can let him avoid his fears. And in doing so, he brings it about.

    You have to look at cause and effect as well. I've often heard the criticism of the war in the PT because it doesn't involve regular people. But that's kind of the point -- it's a war built on false pretenses that will benefit the elite few and treats soldiers as disposable units. And look how it ends -- in genocide and the formation of an Empire. Whereas in the OT, we see a band of brothers come together to fight off oppression. And thus, they free the galaxy.

    You're comparing when what you should be doing, instead, is contrasting the PT and OT. Because they reinforce each other. The mistakes made by Anakin's generation have to be rectified by Luke's.
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The future is (still) always in motion; we see this play out in the PT as Anakin's visions change during the course of ROTS. From an in-universe perspective, from the POV of the PT timeframe, there was never any kind of guarantee that the prophecy would be fulfilled. Since everything depends on Anakin's actions, you can't guarantee a result. In fact, the official novelization tells us that Force prophecy is not absolute. Out-of-universe, the only reason why we knew the prophecy would be fulfilled was because we were watching prequels. Thus what we're seeing here really breaks down to "Don't ever do prequels, or you'll be accused of philosophical breach".

    Also, I think it's important to remember that we only hear the opinions of a few Jedi on this issue. For the others, we don't know what they're thinking.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 5, 2014
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  24. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    I would have loved to have seen a PT scene where a few of the Jedi Council members ruminated on their suspicions about the dark side surrounding the Chancellor as well as why paradoxically he would then choose the very Jedi who they knew to be the potential Chosen One to be his personal representative on the Council.
  25. DBZGTKOSDH Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2013
    star 1
    While I believe that the balance in the Force was restored by destroying the Sith (as it was stated by Lucas & implied in the films), I believe that the extinction of the Jedi also helped. After Anakin's death, there are no Sith any more, and there is only one Jedi. He "rebooted" the whole system by doing this.
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