PT The Prophecy

It's only "unhealthy" in the context of being a Jedi. The simple desire two people to share their lives does not ordinarily lead to one partner discarding their humanity in order to ensure this. And the context of being a Jedi doesn't ensure this (in the form of becoming a Sith) either.

There is no direct correlation between marriage and evil. Anakin being vulnerable because of it (and vice versa) is only one aspect.

 

I think the Catholic Church would disagree with you. I think they would consider it a grave sin for a Priest to secretly be married and concieve children. Such is Anakin's commitment to the order, and such is his deceit.

 

That's just another context DrDre. And the sin of deceit doesn't necessitate becoming inhumanly evil.

 

It doesn't make him good either...

 

Yep. And arguably not a good Jedi. But that doesn't necessarily make someone evil either.

 

Correct. That's why Lucas said it is unnatural and not good all around. Though he sacrifices Padme for power as he prizes the power to rule over saving her, which is why she turns against him.

Indeed, it is reflected in the film, twice. Before and after he has turned.


ANAKIN: "I have found a way to save you."

PADME: "Save me?"

ANAKIN: "From my nightmares."

PADME: "Is that what's bothering you?"

ANAKIN: "I won't lose you, Padme."

PADME: "I'm not going to die in childbirth, Ani. I promise you."

ANAKIN: "No, I promise you!"

She's dismissive of his efforts and of his visions. She's even forgotten about it until he brings it up.


PADME: "Anakin, all I want is your love."

ANAKIN: "Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

PADME: "At what cost? You're a good person. Don't do this."

ANAKIN: "I won't lose you the way I lost my mother. I am becoming more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of. And I'm doing it for you. To protect you."

Marriage in and of itself isn't evil, much less a problem. The problem lies in becoming too attached to one person at the expense of others. Anakin is so attached to Padme and was that way, way before Shmi died, that he cannot think straight. He leads by his heart and not his head. The problem for Anakin is that he obsesses about death because he is afraid of it. He lets the fear dictate his actions, rather than using logic and reasoning. He is motivated by greed more than anything. It's unhealthy whether he is a Jedi or not.

If you offer your soul up to save someone you love, that's unhealthy.

 

I don't believe that Lucas ever said that falling in love with someone and wanting to share each other's lives is unnatural or not good all round. It should be patently obvious that the choices Anakin makes following Mace's death are not good all round. But those are two separate things. And the latter is not the inevitable outcome of the former. There are other factors.

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The Anakin/Padme dialogue is from a scene after Anakin has turned to the darkside. After he has credulously acquiesced to Palpatine's wish to destroy the Jedi and blithely murdered dozens of innocent children. It does not indicate that Anakin being in love with Padme was unhealthy. It shows that under the many onerous circumstances, Anakin is unhealthy and it is affecting his perspective on everything, including the relationship with Padme. I also agree with Rick McCallum identifying this scene indicates that however confused, misguided but basically good Anakin was before Mace died, Anakin has now simply cracked up, He's lost it.

The closeness between Anakin and Padme from the beginning and the link between their relationship and the horrific, traumatizing loss of Anakin's mother should have been known to the Jedi, and they should, considering how they nurtured his special status, have provided more support and guidance over and above Jedi platitudes.

So when Yoda, the Jedi Master who rejected the would be chosen one and refused to initiate his training and early development tells Anakin that he'll just need to train himself to not miss people and not mourn them because it's the Jedi way, who can be surprised that Anakin is dependent on his attachment to Padme to help him to cope with that loss? Or that he is hesitant to disclose this attachment to Yoda who cannot offer anything other than the code of what Jedi must do, when the reason for Anakin being a Jedi at all is because he is special. The chosen one.

Yes if you offer your soul up for someone that's unhealthy. But that doesn't happen until after Mace is dead. Before Mace's death, Anakin was only concerned that a chance to prevent the imminent horrible death he has foreseen for Padme might be lost if the Chancellor dies. After Mace is killed, Anakin becomes compliant with everything the Chancellor says even though moments earlier he had acknowledged that everything had been a grand deception orchestrated by this same person and Anakin wanted to kill him for it. Anakin having a secret marriage to Padme while remaining a Jedi has no direct correlation with him suddenly acquiescing to plain and simple evil doing.


The context and the circumstances of his and Padme's marriage, which is an otherwise natural and benign desire, compromises Anakin and his duty as Jedi. But he nevertheless excels in his role as a Jedi. His lack of fitness to be a Jedi is not identified until very, very late in the day. And in the case of his best friend, Obi Wan, his health, mental, spiritual or jedi-related or whatever is completely missed and disbelieved until he sees Anakin fully turned.

There is no indication, prior to the attack on the temple, that Anakin;s attachment is so unhealthy that he puts i above other concerns including morality or humanity, or that he would kill innocents to ensure her survival. Or even just that he would allow others to die for her sake. None.

 

Falling in love is not good all round in the context of these films, and sometimes in real life as well. Being good is about abiding by a set of principles. One of those principles is not to lie to your comrades in order to further your own agenda. Like a Priest in the Catholic Church, Anakin has committed himself to the Jedi order, and to abide by it's principles, rules, and dogma's. If he doesn't want to do this for whatever reason, he should leave the order, or raise his objections to his collegues, and accept a majority judgement. By marrying Padme in secret, and lying to his comrades, he breaks the Jedi code, and undermines the principles through which the Jedi order has survived for a thousand generations. This is not good all round, it's bad. Lies, and deceit are traits of the dark side.

To live a lie is unhealthy. To break the rules, and decieve those that trust you with their lives to fullfill your personal desires is unhealthy. To live in fear of discovery is unhealthy.

 

Sometimes.

That's just context again. Doesn't make someone evil because they do not or cannot live up to all those principles. Or because they believe that they can satisfy both impulses. And it is not necessarily evil to challenge authority or dogma. And Anakin does not lie so that he can further his own agenda. He lies so that he can , as he believes he can, be true to his feelings AND the Jedi at once. There is not indication that Anakin is at odds with the Jedi's agenda in any other way besides his attachment to Padme. That only comes after Mace dies and Anakin is in a sticky situation.

Even within the Catholic church the policy of celibate priests is continuously debated because many evils have been committed that might arguably have not happened if a different stance on celibacy had been taken, or more support was given to priests in the past on this matter over and above the simple doctrine.

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Yes he should leave the order if he feels he cannot live without Padme and feels he must protect her. It's unwise because deceit grows on top of deceit. Anakin's behaviour as a result of this lie was "unhealthy". The reasons he lied are not because love is unhealthy or even that his love for Padme was unhealthy. Denying those feelings are arguably also unhealthy. Having to give up being a Jedi, in order to stay honest to those feelings would have been the "healthy" thing to to for the Jedi order. But the regret and guilt at giving up the Jedi life would have also been "unhealthy" for the chosen one, prophesised to destroy the sith.

Lies and deceit are also traits of Obi Wan. From a certain point of view. And that lie was intended to protect as much as Anakin's was. Not because it served Obi Wan's agenda.

There is no precedent for someone having an attachment that is problematic only within the context of the society that person inhabits being inherently unhealthy. I simply don't accept that Anakin's love for Padme being unhealthy explains him surrendering his humanity and making a pact with the devil to destroy everything he swore to protect.

If there had been a scene in the movie, in the aftermath of the purge, where Yoda reflects on what has happened and the best that he could come up with " All because Anakin and Padme loved each other, this is." you would be screaming at the screen. 800 years of wisdom and experience and the blame is put on two young people loving each other when they shouldn't have being the cause of the Jedi's destruction and was inevitable because Anakin could not choose between love and presumed destiny.

 

Don't be willfully ignorant. Don't speak of Vader and Anakin as being the same person, they are not. Vader doesn't have friends and comrades, he has people who have lied and manipulated him (from his point of view).

Now Anakin didn't trust their judgement? Lied to Obi-Wan? What is he supposed to be, a saint? Anakin acted like a rational person given his situation. He didn't trust their judgement, because in his mind, they didn't trust him. And really, they didn't.

"He commited himself to the Jedi order." And like no Jedi before him, he actually knew what love was. He was raised by a mother who loved him; he understood the power of relationships. No Jedi carried this burden. It's why it was forsaken. It's too much to ask of a person, which is why the council didn't want to train Anakin. Asking Anakin to be as committed as the other Jedi is an impossibility. The Jedi are literally clueless about real love. How could Anakin be as committed when he is not like the other Jedi?

"That's what a good person would do." Statements like this are hilarious to me. You look at people like they are robots. That's what a soulless person would do, not a "good" person. Anakin is a very emotion person. He is always wanting to help others, and is shown to have a heightened connection to life (like calming that bull-like alien on Geonosis). You're asking him to forsake love, something that is for his character is impossible. You're asking him to abandon his duty and let many suffer where he could have prevailed. Both are extremely unrealistic given his character. And this is the point. Anakin's characteristics are exactly those required to fulfill the prophecy. Anakin was a passionate human male and acted accordingly. Try and see him as this, and not some Christian missionary.

 

First, no, Lucas did say that. Nor does he believe it himself. But what the problem is lies with how you love, not who you love, or if you love at all. He is very precise in saying that Anakin confused compassionate love, which Han and Leia have with possessive love, which is what his relationship with Padme was about. Second, Anakin was making bad choices long before he cut off Mace's arm.

I'm talking about before he has turned. That's what the two lines of dialogue represent, the alpha and the omega. The first one is shortly before finding out that Palpatine is Sidious and the second is after he has turned. In the first one, they are dismissive of each other. She's not worried about dying because she doesn't believe it to be true, while he ignores her saying that and focuses on himself.

The Jedi Council know that his mother is dead, but he lied about what happened. He didn't tell them that he killed the Tusken Raiders in an act of revenge, because he would be expelled and possibly locked away, or worse executed. That's not a good thing that he did. Then he compounds it by marrying Padme, knowing full well that it will destroy both their careers. But he's being selfish. The only support that Anakin wanted, was to be told that the Force can stop people from dying. The Council isn't going to lie to him about that, but Palpatine will.

His dependence on his attachment to him was the problem to begin with, way before his visions started. Not treating him like he is special will help. That's what Palpatine does to turn him, by telling him he's above all that.

Yes, it does. He has an attachment to Padme. He's already decided that he will do whatever it takes to stop anyone that he loves from dying. He said that twice in AOTC after Shmi dies. He had vowed to become all powerful, no matter the cost.

I suggest re-watching the films and watch TCW. He was fearful, angry, jealous, obsessive and possessive with her.

Not a saint, but he's better than that. Anakin and Obi-wan were supposed to be open and honest with each other as both friends and brothers. Obi-wan gave Anakin plenty of slack and leeway with Padme, but Anakin wouldn't budge. So it was very much a betrayal when Anakin did betray them. As to trusting him, he proved that he couldn't be trusted when the time came. He chose himself over the Republic and the Jedi. The Council treated him no different from any other Jedi and as Obi-wan said, he was way too loyal to people.

You totally miss everything. Anakin swore an oath to the Jedi Order and to the Republic. They were more important that one person. Obi-wan would sacrifice Yoda if it meant ending the war. He would let him die. Luke ultimately chooses to stop fighting and accept that his friends will either live or die, but he will not turn just to protect them. Anakin did not understand the power of relationships, which is why he turned to the dark side. He was too attached to one person and he chose her, over stopping Palpatine and thereby ending the war and instead damned everyone. Hell, Han Solo had a better understanding of relationships which is why he told Leia that he'll back off so that she and Luke can be together. He was willing to sacrifice his own happiness for hers and his best friend.

You totally miss it. Anakin's emotions are what damage him. They're a hindrance to him, not a help. Anakin wasn't ready to make sacrifices in his life when he becomes Vader. And he did abandoned his duty when he turned on the Jedi and became a Sith. He caused untold suffering. Hell, his son is a better man than he is. That's what saves him. Luke is what Anakin should have been and he realizes that, which is why he finally makes the ultimate sacrifice to save his son.

 

It's amazing to what length some will go to defend a guy, whose selfish choices ultimately led to death, and suffering. Anakin is first and foremost responsible for his ssown actions. The slaughter of the Tuskens, his deceiving the Jedi council, and marrying Padme, killing Dooku, are among a long line of poor decisions that led him on a path to the dark side. The rules apply to everyone, but him. He's angry, that the Jedi don't trust him? What reason do they have to trust him? He's secretly married, and lied to their faces for years. With great power comes great responsibility, and as Yoda predicted in TPM, Anakin was not up to the task.

 

Making bad choices doesn't necessarily make you evil or open to the totally spurious suggestion that hundreds of children must be murdered. Marriage is partially about possession. That's why it is considered by the code to be incompatible with Jedi life of obedience and service. But it's how far you go with that possessiveness that marks that relationship as unhealthy. The desire to be married to someone does not make one inherently over-possessive.The impulse to be protective of them does not make one inherently over-possessive. Losing perspective and any sense of proportion over those impulses and normal ethical or moral standards, never mind the Jedi code, in pursuit of those impulses does indicate an issue. And that only becomes relevant when Anakin decides to ignore the terrible truth that he himself intuited before anyone else, and acted on correctly. at first. It really is an issue when he says "I agree" to killing all Jedi.

Padme hasn't foreseen herself die in childbirth. Anakin has. He sensed his mother dying in agony before it happened. By the time he reacted to it (or was encouraged to by Padme) he arrived only to see it actually happen in front of his eyes. Just too late. Most people normally don't foresee their own deaths. The fact that Padme doesn't, while Anakin does and in the same way that his mother's death came true, does not mean that Anakin is only thinking of himself. That makes no sense. The dialogue just demonstrates how convinced Anakin is and how Padme fails to comprehend his convictions and how they are a danger to both of them yet. It does not show that Anakin is working for himself and against her or the Jedi.


There's a massive difference between being assuring someone that you will not allow them to die violently and agreeing to further someone else's agenda of murdering people you know to be innocent on the basis of that person's loose claims to have the powers of life preservation. There is no evidence that Anakin is prone to committing or rationalising such outrageous iniquities to get what he desires. The post turn Vader dialogue is the words of someone who really is off the deep end trying to scramble for justification for acts done in fit of pique (or not, in the case of the temple massacre), they are not the inevitable conclusions of someone in fear for the life of a loved one.

You do not need to keep reminding people that killing out of anger or revenge is not a good thing. It is a little bit insulting and besides the point. Nobody is arguing that Anakin does good. We're arguing that Anakin's natural impulse to love and be attached to Padme did not necessitate his path to the dark side and murdering hundreds of innocent children.


At no point prior to being seduced by Sidious does Anakin ask to be told that the force can stop people from dying. He expresses his frustration that, with all the power he has, the special destiny and chosen one status he has had imposed on him, it only enabled him to be cruelly confronted with his mother's agonising death. In other words, his still immature talent with the force tantalised him with almost enabling him to rescue her in time. In his frustration he wishes that he was the finished article, with the suggestion that he would be able to prevent things like his mother's death.


Between that and the events of ROTS though, Anakin and Padme express their love for each other on geonoisis after the experience on Tatooine has bonded them further. In Padme's case she professes that she would be content to die then because they have opened their hearts to each other, Anakin does not protest or behave possessively. He momentarily puts her safety before pursuing Dooku but quickly agrees that it is the greater good that must be served. The trauma of his run in with Dooku though pushes them even closer together. Their resulting marriage seems to allow Anakin to recover from this whole episode. So much so that he becomes an outstanding Jedi, relied on by the council to pull of the most important missions. He rescues the Chancellor and defeats Dooku almost singled handed. Rescuing Obi Wan in the process.


That is until he has premonitions again. This time of Padme's imminent, painful death. The impersonal response he receives from Yoda, which implies that he automatically accepts the death of Padme as Anakin foresees it, is inevitably going to undermine Anakin's faith in his peers or in the hierarchy whose orders he takes on the basis that they are in the galaxy's best interests.

But he is treated as special by the council, by some, sometimes. Then sometimes not. He had visions before his attachment to Padme. Yoda even remarks on the premonitions as extraordinary. Intuits that it is someone very close to Anakin. But then doesn't pursue it. Doesn't ask Anakin to trust him or at least Obi Wan with the burden that is troubling him. He just switches to pat Jedi doctrine. Train yourself to accept it. In other word. You are right. She will die as you have foreseen. Allow it to happen.

Anakin receives many mixed signals from the Jedi and from Palpatine. It's now wonder he's confused. Just calling him selfish is woefully inadequate in my book. Just as the movie does not adequately set up his suggestibility regarding murdering the younglings.

He does not say "no matter the cost" at any point in AOTC. He says that he believes he should have been powerful enough to save his mother and that some day he will learn to be. The idea that desiring that power is anathema to the Jedi has not even been introduced. At this point, Anakin's understandable hatred for the ones that caused his mother's violent death is the apparent danger.

I've never watched the Clone Wars show. If someone had to come along later to depict Anakin as suitably unlikable prior to the events of ROTS to show how his path to the darkside was inevitable, because he consistently behaved possessively in a way that Episode III failed to convey, then it supports my argument about the film not giving convincing or plausible motivation. I shouldn't have to see the clone wars in order for the climactic moments and choices in ROTS to make sense.

 

They are living a lie though, hiding their marriage to everyone else but the droids. That's not really the healthiest situation for any relationship and GL never portrayed it as a good thing and then going as far as selling his soul to the devil and committing crimes in her name (at least at first) because he couldn't bear the thought of loosing her. And then Mustafar happened and it was no longer about Padme but power.

 

No it wasn't the wise thing to do, ultimately.

Anakin and Padme are not the only one's in possession of that shortcoming though.

And they didn marry on the basis that one couldn't live without the other either. That only came about with Anakin's nightmares and premonitions.

 

No it wasn't the wisest thing to do.

But the two lovers are not alone in possessing that shortcoming.

 

The bad choices are made based on fear, anger, hate, jealousy, possessiveness, obsessiveness and greed. Anakin chooses to marry Padme based on his obsession for her and is afraid to be without her. He becomes possessive of her when he thinks she will leave him, willingly or by other means. He obsesses about her even after he's married and he obsesses about losing her. He becomes jealous as we saw with Rush Clovis and when he briefly thinks that Obi-wan and her are together against him. He's angry at the thought of losing her and he hates that he will lose her.

And by not marrying her, much less dedicating himself to her as he did, he would have avoided all of this.

Yes, it is about himself because he has an attachment to her. Just as he did his mother. He's afraid of death. He's afraid of what it means to him and as such, he acts based on emotion rather than logic. He is taking the idea that he failed his mother and applies it to Padme, by the rationale that he wasn't strong enough to keep her in his life. So in order to keep someone he loves from dying, he reacts emotionally by wanting the power to cheat death. This is about what he wants, not what she wants. This is about him not being able to accept that people will die and that there is nothing that can be done, either by medical science or by the Force. He cannot accept that idea and refuses to even attempt to banish his fears. And because he is unwilling to try, he looks for anything that can help him.

There is evidence. We see it with the Tusken Slaughter and the aftermath. He rationalized his reasons for killing them as they were savages and animals and he slaughtered them as such. He does this because he couldn't keep Shmi alive and in his life. He couldn't save her because he was not as powerful as he thought that he was.

They are because he becomes obsessed with the idea of being all powerful, as he told Padme.

PADME: "You're not all powerful, Ani."

ANAKIN: "Well, I should be. Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying!"

And they are based out of fear of loss.

PADME; "It was only a dream."

ANAKIN: "....I won't let this one become real."

It does when he has attachment issues and is filled with the negative aspects that come with the dark side.

Before his mother's death, Anakin is under the misguided belief that he's far ahead of the other Jedi and should already be a Knight. His arrogance blinds him to the fact that he's not emotionally mature enough to be a Knight, much less has reached a point in his training where he is ready. This is why Palpatine tells him that he is better than anyone else and when he finds out that he comes up short, he decides to make it a point to become all powerful. To go beyond what he is to what he wants to become. And when he vows to cheat death, that is when he becomes vulnerable to Palpatine.

He only agrees after being reminded that she would do the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Not because he knows that it is the right thing to do. Which then feeds into his anger and hate towards Dooku when he fights him a moment later.

He hasn't recovered. The whole affair has made things worse because he becomes obsessed with being stronger and more powerful than he was before all this. Nor is he an outstanding Jedi. While he does become a general and takes on a Padawan, he's still not over his issues. This was evident in many situations where he lets his emotions cloud his judgment, ending with his killing Dooku out of fear, anger and hate.

He forgets the golden rule of the future, it is always in motion. Not everything that he sees will happen, nor the way that he sees it. That is the problem. He believes that she will die, when she dies because of him. He isn't bothered by Yoda's response. Only that Yoda doesn't tell him what he wants to hear. He believes that the Council will not tell him how to cheat death, because they don't trust him to use it responsibly. Something which Palpatine states.

No, he isn't. He's treated no differently from anyone else in the Order. He's only given a Padawan in an effort to help him, not because he's special. He's only assigned to watch Palpatine because of their friendship, not because he's special.

Yes, because of his attachment to Shmi.

Yoda doesn't say it is extraordinary. It's not uncommon among the Jedi. He warns him to be very careful sensing the future, because his emotions will lead him astray. Yoda doesn't tell him to accept it and allow it to happen. He tells him that if whoever it is that he sees will die, he must prepare himself for the fact that they will die. He must let go of his attachment to that person. He must not dwell on the negative.

He receives no mixed signals from the Jedi, he just doesn't like the answers that he's told by them. And Palpatine does give him the wrong impression because he exploits Anakin's loyalty to people over principles. As to killing the Younglings, again, he's told that he must not hesitate. He must show no mercy. He must free himself of the bonds of morality if he wants to be strong enough with the dark side. See, Palpatine can kill anyone without it bothering him to do so. He has no conscience. He is not bound by delusions of morality. The Jedi and his mother instilled these traits in him and he must free himself, if he is to be strong with the dark side. Remember how he thinks that it was wrong to kill Dooku? That's what Palpatine is telling him to do. He sends him into the Temple with the intention of killing the Jedi in there and not hesitating to kill them, which he doesn't do. That's why when it is over, this exchange happens.

SIDIOUS: "You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"

ANAKIN: "Yes, My Master."

He doesn't have to say it. He makes a point in saying that he will do this. He doesn't care if it is the Jedi way or not. And we know that desiring power is not the Jedi way, because that is the path to the dark side, set up in TESB when Luke asks why he cannot use the dark side and Yoda telling him there is no why.

His motivations are clear in the films. I suggest watching TCW because it shows a pattern of behavior with regards to Padme. That it didn't come out of the blue. That it was there with his character.

They married on the basis that they love each other and that if they were going to die, they'd rather die being honest with their feelings. It comes when they are facing death. From that, they marry because of their attachment to each other. And every action that he takes is to keep her in his life, including marriage.

 

Everything could have been avoided including all the mistakes made if everyone had actually listened to what the prophecy actually said - there would be a chosen one, who would bring balance to the force. As far as I am aware, that's it. Nothing that says it will be a Jedi, nothing that says he NEEDS to be a Jedi, no reason at all why they MUST train him as a Jedi. So he is too old, and can't be trained in the Jedi way? Fine. Doesn't make him not the chosen one. All of the problems and everyone's downfall started when making Anakin go through the Jedi training when right from the very beginning everyone thought it was a bad idea.

 

That's true with a caveat. Anakin is the Chosen One because he is the only one who can destroy the Sith, but how he chooses to do so was always up in the air. He could have done so without turning to the dark side and straight up battling him. But because he makes poor choices in his life and then one last good choice, he is able to destroy Sidious in a way that was never taken into consideration.

 

In the Matt Stover ROTS novelization, this actually gets brought up (Obi-Wan talking with Padme):



“Senator—Padmé. Please.” He gazed into her eyes with nothing on his face but compassion and fatigued anxiety. “I am not blind, Padmé. Though I have tried to be, for Anakin’s sake. And for yours.”
“What do you mean?”
“Neither of you is very good at hiding feelings, either.”
“Obi-Wan—”
“Anakin has loved you since the day you met, in that horrible junk shop on Tatooine. He’s never even tried to hide it, though we do not speak of it. We … pretend that I don’t know. And I was happy to, because it made him happy. You made him happy, when nothing else ever truly could.” He sighed, his brows drawing together. “And you, Padmé, skilled as you are on the Senate floor, cannot hide the light that comes to your eyes when anyone so much as mentions his name.”
“I—” She lurched to her feet. “I can’t—Obi-Wan, don’t make me talk about this ... ”
“I don’t mean to hurt you, Padmé. Nor even to make you uncomfortable. I’m not here to interrogate you; I have no interest in the details of your relationship.”
She turned away, walking just to be moving, barely conscious of passing through the door out onto the dawn-painted veranda. “Then why are you here?”
He followed her respectfully. “Anakin is under a great deal of pressure. He carries tremendous responsibilities for a man so young; when I was his age I still had some years to go as a Padawan. He is—changing. Quickly. And I have some anxiety about what he is changing into. It would be a ... very great mistake ... were he to leave the Jedi Order.”
She blinked as though he'd slapped her. “Why—that seems ... unlikely, doesn't it? What about this prophecy the Jedi put so much faith in? Isn't he the chosen one?”
“Very probably. But I have scanned this prophecy; it says only that a chosen one will be born and bring balance to the Force: nowhere does it say he has to be a Jedi.”
She blinked harder, fighting down a surge of desperate hope that left her breathless. “He doesn't have to—?”
“My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi—and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all.”
“But the will of the Force—isn't that what Jedi follow?”
“Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth—if any truth is ever simple—is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery.”
“What does this have to do with Anakin?” She swallowed, but her voice stayed tight and thin. “And with me?”
“I fear that some of his current ... difficulty ... has to do with your relationship.”
If you only knew how much, she thought. “What do you want me to do?”
He looked down. “I cannot tell you what to do, Padmé. I can only ask you to consider Anakin's best interests. You know the two of you can never be together while he remains in the Order.”
A bleak chill settled into her chest. “Obi-Wan, I can't talk about this.”
“Very well. But remember that the Jedi are his family. The Order gives his life structure. It gives him a direction. You know how . . . undisciplined he can be.”
And that's why he is the only Jedi I could ever love ...
“Yes. Yes, of course.”
“If his true path leads him away from the Jedi, so be it. But please, for both of your sakes, tread carefully. Be sure. Some decisions can never be reversed.”
“Yes,” she said slowly. Feelingly. “I know that too well.”
He nodded as though he understood, although of course he did not understand at all. “We all do, these days.”
A soft chiming came from within his robe. “Excuse me,” he said, and turned aside, producing a comlink from an inner pocket. “Yes...?”
A man’s voice came thinly though the comlink, deep and clipped: “We are calling the Council into special session. We’ve located General Grievous!”
“Thank you, Master Windu," Obi-Wan said. “I’m on my way.”
General Grievous? Her eyes went hot, and stung with sudden tears. And so they would take her Anakin away from her again.
She fell a stirring below her ribs. Away from us, she amended, and there was so much love and fear and joy and loss all swirling and clashing within her that she dared not speak. She only stared blindly out across the smog-shrouded cityscape as Obi-Wan came close to her shoulder.
“Padmé,” he said softly. Gently. Almost regretfully. “I will not tell the Council of this. Any of it. I'm very sorry to burden you with this, and I—I hope I haven’t upset you too much. We have all been friends for so long ... and I hope we always will be.”
“Thank you, Obi-Wan,” she said faintly. She couldn't look at him. From the corner of her eye she saw him incline his head respectfully and turn to go.
For a moment she said nothing, but as his footsteps receded she said, “Obi-Wan?”
She heard him stop.
“You love him too, don’t you?”
When he didn’t answer, she turned to look. He stood motionless, frowning, in the middle of the expanse of buff carpeting.
“You do. You love him.”
He lowered his head. He looked very alone.
“Please do what you can to help him,” he said, and left.

 

I think overall there is way too much focus on the prophesy. I think the films prove how inconsequential it all is. The destruction of the Sith is an end, but what does that end mean, if the means are death, destruction, and suffering. It's not just the Sith, that made the Empire what it is. There are many power hungry individuals, many cogs that made the Empire the oppressive power it was, and the Force had very little to do with it. It's a military industrial complex, of which Palpatine and Vader are two figure heads.

 

The Sith were the ones who caused all of this. Yes, there were many power hungry individuals within the Republic and many of whom either lacked the courage, or the means to do what they did without the involvement of the Sith. By creating a war, the Sith created death and destruction on a grand scale. The Force, which is about life and growth is wounded by too much of its opposite end. There was more fear, anger and hate in the galaxy than there was compassion, selflessness and charity. Before long, the Force was out of balance and needed to be balanced again. If the Force is weak, then life will become stagnant and it will affect not just Force users, but everyone else. If the Force is strong, then it can become what it was and what it is meant to be.

Remember, Lucas has equated the Sith as a cancer to the symbiosis that is the Jedi and the Republic.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

"I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding—a “bigger picture” understanding—of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells.

If you put that notion on a larger scale, you have to understand that it's a very cooperative world, not only with the environment, with but our fellow human beings. If you do not cooperate, if you do not work together to keep the entire organism going, the whole thing dies, and everybody dies with it. That's a law of nature, and it's existed forever. We're one of the very few creatures that has a choice, and can intellectualize the process.

Most organisms either adapt and become part of the system, or get wiped out. The only thing we have to adapt to the system with is our brain. If we don't use it, and we don't adapt fast enough, we won't survive."

--George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999.

"One of the main themes in the film is having organisms realize that they must live together, and that they must live together for mutual advantage—not just humans but all living things—and everything in the galaxy is part of a greater whole."

--George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001.

That's why in the OT, in RO and in "Rebels" we see differing people come together for mutual advantage. They're working to make their universe better. It in turn makes the Force stronger. The Jedi are important in maintaining that balance as Lor San Tekka explained to Poe Dameron.

 

I'm afraid, that by focussing too much on prophesies, the super natural element, the humanity will be diminished. While these elements give Star Wars a unique dimension, it's not what is most appealing to me. It's the human struggles, that for me is at the center of the appeal of Star Wars. For me too much focus on prophesies and evil Sith, that by themselves have the power to alter the course of history take away from that. It takes away from little people changing the course if history, through heroism and self-sacrifice. In stead it's all about Anakin who despite being the galaxy's greatest *******, is destined to save the universe.

 

The human struggle is still there and still at the forefront of ROTJ. The struggle between father and son is very much the heart of the battle. The fact that Anakin saving his son has larger implications doesn't detract from that. It is a byproduct of his regaining his humanity and making a heroic sacrifice. That's why Lucas didn't alter ROTJ to include dialogue that would reference the prophecy. When seeing ROTS and then calling back to ROTJ, or vice versa, you then see that it all comes back together.

Besides, it's no different than Luke being the one destined to destroy the Sith before Lucas changed direction.

 

The Anakin/Padme dialogue is from a scene after Anakin has turned to the darkside. After he has credulously acquiesced to Palpatine's wish to destroy the Jedi and blithely murdered dozens of innocent children. It does not indicate that Anakin being in love with Padme was unhealthy. It shows that under the many onerous circumstances, Anakin is unhealthy and it is affecting his perspective on everything, including the relationship with Padme. I also agree with Rick McCallum identifying this scene indicates that however confused, misguided but basically good Anakin was before Mace died, Anakin has now simply cracked up, He's lost it.

The closeness between Anakin and Padme from the beginning and the link between their relationship and the horrific, traumatizing loss of Anakin's mother should have been known to the Jedi, and they should, considering how they nurtured his special status, have provided more support and guidance over and above Jedi platitudes.

So when Yoda, the Jedi Master who rejected the would be chosen one and refused to initiate his training and early development tells Anakin that he'll just need to train himself to not miss people and not mourn them because it's the Jedi way, who can be surprised that Anakin is dependent on his attachment to Padme to help him to cope with that loss? Or that he is hesitant to disclose this attachment to Yoda who cannot offer anything other than the code of what Jedi must do, when the reason for Anakin being a Jedi at all is because he is special. The chosen one.

Yes if you offer your soul up for someone that's unhealthy. But that doesn't happen until after Mace is dead. Before Mace's death, Anakin was only concerned that a chance to prevent the imminent horrible death he has foreseen for Padme might be lost if the Chancellor dies. After Mace is killed, Anakin becomes compliant with everything the Chancellor says even though moments earlier he had acknowledged that everything had been a grand deception orchestrated by this same person and Anakin wanted to kill him for it. Anakin having a secret marriage to Padme while remaining a Jedi has no direct correlation with him suddenly acquiescing to plain and simple evil doing.


The context and the circumstances of his and Padme's marriage, which is an otherwise natural and benign desire, compromises Anakin and his duty as Jedi. But he nevertheless excels in his role as a Jedi. His lack of fitness to be a Jedi is not identified until very, very late in the day. And in the case of his best friend, Obi Wan, his health, mental, spiritual or jedi-related or whatever is completely missed and disbelieved until he sees Anakin fully turned.

There is no indication, prior to the attack on the temple, that Anakin;s attachment is so unhealthy that he puts i above other concerns including morality or humanity, or that he would kill innocents to ensure her survival. Or even just that he would allow others to die for her sake. None.[/quote]



Love all this. I really wish they could've put some more of the novel into the movie, cause you're right. Anakin has lost it by this point. He's reveling in his new Dark Side powers. He killed the Separatists, yet decides to hang around the slaughterground for way longer than he needed to. He's entranced by the evil he's becoming. Even when Padme comes, he's not concerned for her safety. Indeed, he makes a flippant comment about how she probably won't appreciate the redecorating with blood he's done. And he has to "reassemble" his "Anakin Face", meaning that Anakin is now the lie, and Vader is the truth? And, of course, he's only thinking about killing Palaptine and becoming Emperor himself, so that they can do what they want with the Galaxy, rather than finding a way to save her from his visions. He's completely lost sight of why he turned in the first place.

And for your last points - Anakin was a great Jedi while in this secret marriage. Indeed, if he put the marriage and Padme before everyone else, he would've just quit the Order after getting married, and told the Galaxy and the Jedi to go screw. But he continues to fight for what he believes is good, even though it takes him away from his most desired love for months at a time.