The PT has finally made the Dark Side, and its lure, intriguing

Many charges have been leveled against the PT (particularly I and II), and though I myself readily admit that the first two films aren't anywhere near as well crafted as IV and V (I consider ROTJ an artistic failure), I simply don't understand how anyone could claim that the PT makes the OT less interesting. Personally, I am thankful Lucas decided to return to his universe: the saga is immeasurably more complex and multi-faceted than it was in 1998.

Nowhere is this more evident than the elaboration on the nature of the Dark Side of the Force, and the temptations that arise in its adherents.

There was nothing intriguing about the Dark Side in the OT: we were simply led to believe that a Force-sensitive individual need only lose his or her temper (think Bruce Banner of "The Incredible Hulk"), or give into passion, and voila(!)...we've got ourselves a Sith Lord. True, there was Vader's plea to Luke that they could use the Dark Side to "end this destructive conflict," but this was all but abandoned in Episode VI. Suffice to say, Lucas and Kasdan weren't exactly plumbing depths here. As a result, many of the backstories we fashioned for Anakin Skywalker weren't that interesting; most of us assumed Anakin fell for all the wrong reasons.

But as it turns out, Anakin fell for all the right reasons.

--He acted on a very well-founded fear of losing his family (the prophecy concerning his mother came true, did it not?). And wouldn't Palpatine be a source for comfort, after a group of ascetics and dogmatists gave you such pearls of wisdom as "dreams pass in time" and non-attachment platitudes?

--True, he did have a lust for power, but this was anchored in his desire to make everything right. ("I had a dream I came back and freed all the slaves," "I'll even stop people from dying," "I have brought peace to my new empire.") Perhaps the road to hell is, in fact, paved with good intentions. But good intentions were what Anakin had. (And recall Dooku was himself a political idealist.)


The temptation to power in Star Wars has more of a Tolkienesque feel to it. Vader is less a monster than he is a misguided romantic and utopian. Now this is a story you can sink your teeth into.

 

I actually thought that Anakin did so many more horrible things than Vader. I rarely saw him do anything except Force choke a few people. I actually thought Vader was a much more nicer But you're right, the prequels led people to understand Anakin's actions. But some people despise him for it, and some don't. But that is not the point, the prequels' entire goal was to allow people to UNDERSTAND, and it suceeded.

 

Well, that's the trick. Make Anakin a tyrant-in-waiting, and he is not worthy of redemption; make him a complete victim, and the saga is mired in fatalism.

To Lucas's credit, this was deftly balanced (save for Qui-Gon, I *really* don't like the PT Jedi).

 

I totally agree with you, drg4!
I think we now finally have a good understanding of the nature of the Dark Side, and why people are so vulnerable to its influence. It really is almost like Tolkien's One Ring, isn't it? You start off with good intentions, but somehow it all goes wrong!
Some people, I think, find it easier to relate to the idea of a more black-and-white sense of morality, as well as a clear-cut sense of who the "good guys" are and who the "bad guys" are. But I think that George Lucas, with the PT, makes it very clear that we each hold the potential of great good (Light) and great evil (Dark) within ourselves, and that we each have the potential to be heroic or to become the sum of our worst instincts!
I'm 32 years old, and I grew up with the OT. But as much as I enjoy the older films, the increased understanding we now have of the nature of the Dark Side gives me a slight bias towards the PT! In ROTJ, when Luke states his belief that there's still good in his father and that he can bring him back, audiences back then may have been extremely skeptical. After all, there's nothing that Darth Vader had done in the previous films to really lend credence to Luke's optimism! But after seeing the PT, and especially ROTS, I think audiences should definitely have a different perspective!

 

i agree with that, espescially the idea that people back when jedi came out did not believe that vader could be redeemed, i remember being abolutely shocked when vader threw the emperor down the shaft it seemed so out of left field, not anymore. and i a lso agree that people didnt like the PT as much simply because the OT was incredibly simplistic (in a good sense) and the prequels are alot greyer in terms of character motivations

 

Awesome thread! I can't think of anything to add at the moment, but if I do, I'll let you guys know



The dark side - it's insidious
/LM

 

good points by everyone

Yes, the prequels have given new meaning to the darkside. Seeing Anakin kneeling in front of Sidious, seemingly transfixed by Sidious's eyes, I finally got why Anakin turned.

I don't have much to add to this, I have to think about it a bit.

 

I'd basically like to agree with everyone. I don't have much to add either. It's interesting that the PT- via Palpatine, Dooku and Vader- demonstrates the lure and strength of the dark side whereas the OT- through Ben, Yoda and Luke- shows the audience the true greatness of the Jedi.

 

I think the OT did a fairly decent job with the dark side portrayal. Within the Dagobah cave, Luke duels an imaginary Vader, only to find out that it was himself in the suit. And this was Luke Skywalker, great hero of the Rebellion, son of a great hero of the Republic (conversation with Red Leader shows that people still think of Anakin as a hero...ironic how he gets killed later).

Anyway, this all shows that Luke's training wasn't so much as to improve his lightsaber skills, or to make him stronger in the Force. Yoda's training was all about teaching Luke to resist the dark side. If some mass-murderer (like Vader) kills everyone on your homeworld, the thought of it would probably make your blood boil with fury. The point of Yoda's lesson is that while Luke has a duty to fight against such evil villains, he should not let his anger degenerate into vengeance.

 

we weren't all dissing the OT, but this is a prequel forum. the dagobah scene rules. and Luke's darkside temptation in ESB and ROTJ are handled well.
I like both trilogy's styles. The OT was more mysterious, and you had to work out a lot for yourself (like the cave scene). just a few eeks ago my friend, who claims to have liked the OT heaps, but hates the prequels, was watching ESB with me. Now he thought it was a bad movie. I asked him what he thought the meaning of the cave scene was and he replies "because he's his father" in a kind of "it's so obvious" voice. I'm like "wha? it is a manifestation of Luke's fear. the fact that he is his father isn't too important here." Lol, he kind of conceded that the movie was good after that .

The prequels however show us the finer details of it all, and we learn of the true lure - immortality.

 

The dream about his mother does NOT establish credibility for his Padme dream. Modern day fathers do not obsess about the possibility of death in childbirth--its obsolete, and having a premonition dream in Episode II doesn't change that. No more than references to Exodus in Magnolia justified frogs at the end. It's still death in childbirth, and that motivation is completely divorced from what he accomplishes, which is helping Palpatine create an Empire. Palpatines speech about how the Sith also believe in security and justice offered a much more believable reason to turn. Connecting the mother to Padme was purely a mechanical excercise, straight out of screenwriting 101. Up until now, dreams about the future were believable because the deaths they predicted--violent deaths at the hands of others--were believable as well. Now the focus, instead of the actual thread, is on Anakin believing anything he dreams, which is not something any modern audience can relate to.

 

He has a dream about his mother dying, or being tortured. Being in pain. He is worried about her, and he has not seen her in over 10 years. He goes to see her, and find out she IS being tortured, and is in pain.

Then, he has a dream about Padme dying, and so wouldn't you think he would believe that? He discussed it with Yoda, and Yoda said nothing about "only a dream, it is" So, it makes sense that he believes in the dream.

 

yeah i don't get it either

 

Dude, it's a mythological sci-fi set in a fantastical universe. What combination of that should relate to modern day parenting?

 

I would agree... the PT shows how subtle and crafty the dark side is - in the OT its all big bombastic fights and hysteria that tries to get Luke to the dark side like the 2 fights with Vader... although I would admit that the Emperor's words to Luke in the throne room are more related to the dark side as explored in the PT. The PT shows its actually about finding vulnerabilities and weaknesses that can be exploited for example until someone has no concept of what is good and what is bad anymore - or they do but it becomes more and more hazy. I think this is something that I liked about the PT, they show that evil and good are not so black and white- they show you that the Jedi are not completely 'blameness', that good people can do bad things and evil can be 'nice' - I am thinking here when Dooku tells Obi-wan the truth about the Sith Lord although again it is a manipulation as Dooku perhaps knows he will disregard it. Anyway I love the complex set of manouevres which Anakin falls straight into and for me because his flaws are so 'human' - too emotional, impaitient, questioning everything around him for a few - which in other contexts would be regarded as strengths rather than weaknesses it makes for a more intellecutally satisfying film. In AOTC I wonder why such an upright Jedi as Dooku would fall and to me it suggests that if someone like that can fall well anyone can. And that is why it becomes dangerous and I appreciate more the struggles that Luke has go to through in the OT.

 

Modern day fathers do not obsess about the possibility of death in childbirth--its obsolete


Tell that to the half a million women who die in childbirth each year, and tell their husbands too so they know not to worry about it.

 

I agree completely with you Ceri, What a lot of people don't see is that, while they do hate anakin, and vader for that matter, they don't realize that when anakin turns, he doesn't really understand that what he is doing is bad, and like you said "good and evil aren't so black and white anymore". He says "I have brought peace to my new empire", so he actually believes that what he is doing is good, and, while i don't think palpatine actually sees it the same way, he does brainwash anakin into thinking it. One can't really say that anakin did what he did for all the right reasons, but one can say that anakin did what he did for what he thought were all the right reasons. He then gets so caught up in what he is doing for the empire itself, that he forgets why he turned in the first place.

 

PT definately made the Dark Side more appealing...For me, part of it was that the Jedi in the PT were nothing like the charismatic, justice-upholding swashbucklers I imagined them to be when I watched the OT: in fact they were dull, stagnant, behind-the-times, strict, etc - they really aren't attractive at all.

The best way I can put it is that the Dark Side in the PT is sexy: in the OT, what's so hot about being a clumsy middle aged-man in an iron-lung-suit who takes orders from a crotchety, crusty Emperor? But in the PT the Dark Side seems like the complete opposite: it's a way to rebel against the establishment, to get what you want, to feel like you are actually doing some good and making a difference, and look as good as Hayden Christensen....what's not to find appealing?!

 

It gave a lot of character development for the Emporer. As a kid I hated that old man because I didn't know why Vader would want to listen to such a ugly geriatic prick. I didn't think he was all that by any means but after seeing the prequels you do get more respect for the guy.

 

I agree 100%.

The PT has definetely made me more interested in the dark side. I actually admire Sidious now for the way he overthrew 10,000 Jedi all by himself and personally took over an entire Galaxy.

Before the PT, I just plain hated Palpatine.