PT The reaction to the Rogue One Vader scene is exactly what Lucas wanted to avoid in ROTS

Was just thinking about this the other day....

I'm not a PT fan, HOWEVER there are things I like about it. And one of those things, which I rarely see noted, is the depiction of the Jedi.

Jedi are....boring. Jedi are very strict and serious. Being a Jedi generally isn't fun. One doesn't become a Jedi for self-fulfillment.

I've heard so much, "Yeah, the Jedi Order was messed up!" ever since the TLJ teaser.

Um....

The whole "no attachments, no acting on emotions" thing makes PERFECT sense to me. This is an organization of *super-powered beings.* Without order, regulation, and control of their ranks, well...you get collateral damage near the level the Marvel/DC universes must see daily

"With great power comes great responsibility," after all.

And yes, the Order was political. It HAD to be. If YOU ran a galactic goverment, would YOU be find with a bunch of super-powered beings doing whatever they wanted?

Anyway, I know "Ooo I wish I were a Jedi!" is pretty foundational to SW's appeal. But I like that I came away from the PT feeling that the position is a difficult duty, and not a role for a would-be Han Solo with a lightsaber.

I'm probably in the minority on this one But I find it important to my understanding of SW.

 

I wouldn't say he upstages the characters, since only interacts with Krennic and he's like Tarkin, a done-in-one villain. Everyone else is dead that matters, so he doesn't really upstage them. And if he does, then that's more on the RO characters for not being more memorable to begin with.

Vader has summoned Krennic to Mustafar, in order to question him about Jedha.

VADER: "Director Krennic."

KRENNIC: "Lord Vader."

VADER: "You seem unsettled."

KRENNIC: "No. Just pressed for time. There're a great many things to attend to."

VADER: "My apologies. You do have a great many things to explain."

KRENNIC: "I delivered the weapon the Emperor requested. I deserve an audience to make certain he understands its remarkable... potential."

VADER: "Its power to create problems has certainly been confirmed. A city destroyed... an Imperial facility openly attacked."

KRENNIC: "It was Governor Tarkin that suggested the test."

VADER: "You were not summoned here to grovel, Director Krennic."

KRENNIC: "No, I..."

VADER: "There is no Death Star. The Senate has been informed that Jedha was destroyed in a mining disaster."

KRENNIC: "Yes, my Lord.

VADER: "I expect you not to rest until you can assure the Emperor that Galen Erso has not compromised this weapon in any way."

KRENNIC: "So I'm still in command? You'll speak to the Emperor about..."

VADER: "Be careful not to choke on your aspirations, Director."

Krennic wanted to talk to Palpatine directly and thought that Vader would be best in this situation, but finds that to not be the case. They were actually careful to not go against ANH. And it is only Tarkin who summons Vader as back-up.

 

Actually it just as likely makes then more noticeable in HD as opposed to SD especially in scenes where the light hits them right.

 

ANH makes it very clear Tarkin is calling the shots. From Vader's "as you wish" to Leia remarking "I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash." In that context it makes no sense for Krennic to ask Vader, whether he's still in command, which makes it seem Vader outranks Tarkin. Also, Krennic is clearly intimidated by Vader, which seems odd, given that Admiral Motti treats Vader with contempt.

 

This type of debate has been ongoing for years. Fact is we need to cut the story some slack with regards to how Vader is depicted in ANH. When that film was written Vader wasn't meant to be of such importance as he later became. He wasn't Luke's father & he wasn't the central character of an entire Saga. Clearly in ESB & RotJ the Imperials are terrified of him & he answers to no one but the Emperor. He even talks about overthrowing Palpatine & ruling himself. Then the PT established that he's part of a Sith partnership with the Emperor. Which again implies far more seniority & importance than ANH suggests. That scenario has become fact in the Saga. I think you need to work backwards from that to explain the apparent inconsistencies within ANH. I don't think that is too difficult. We can say that Tarkin was given complete authority of the Death Star, which R1 showed very well. All of Vader & Tarkin's interactions in ANH occurred on that station. As a courtesy (or perhaps under orders) Vader deferred authority to Tarkin while on board his station. Motti was the only officer to dis him & he was punished by Vader immediately. It's not a perfect rationalisation but...too bad. Fact is there's nothing in ANH RE Vader's status within the Empire that's blatantly contradicted by the other movies from RotS onwards, including R1. In fact a nice & neat retcon could be that Palps was displeased with Vader for allowing the plans to slip through his fingers twice (end of R1 & beginning of ANH). As punishment he made him answer to Tarkin temporarily until the plans were secured.

In addition, you should look at that scene closely between Vader & Krennic. It's clear that Krennic is simply asking Vader to act as a go-between towards the Emperor. He's not asking Vader personally to change the command structure. He's asking him to speak with Palpatine on his behalf. That makes perfect sense & is entirely consistent with the rest of the Saga.

 

The latter explanation would have worked, if Krennic didn't literally ask Vader personally if he was still in command. I'm not that bothered about it, but I do think Vader's progression as a character is better if he starts off being a relic of the past in ANH. In fact both Obi-Wan and Vader represent a bygone era in ANH, and Motti's reaction is an important story point in the sense, that a universe once guarded by powerful Force users, is now being oppressed with technology. Motti's reaction represents the bureaucrats arrogance, and disdain for the old ways. Vader himself represents a linchpin between the two world views, having been schooled in the Jedi ways, and still practising them, but being held alive by technology. Vader represents much more in ANH than being the Emperor's right hand man, and IMO RO undercuts those themes.

 

Krennic is asking Vader bcs he assumes Vader has summoned him to deliver the Emperor's command. All of Krennic's dialogue makes it clear that Palpatine calls the shots. All Vader can do for him is speak to the Emperor on his behalf. I think it all works well & is consistent with the status of all of the characters involved.

Motti's attitude towards the Force, along with Han's is significant in showing the attitude held by some towards that "religion". His disrespecting of Vader however, seen in the context of the Saga seems to be an anomaly. A very stupid & ignorant act of bravado by one very ill-informed individual. Even if you just take ANH in isolation it appears that way. He seems oblivious to the fact that Vader is capable of choking him with a mere thought. & that he's more than willing to do it in front of other senior Imperials including Tarkin.

 

I don't see it as an anomaly. The Jedi are extinct. The Force is reduced to myth. The entire point of that scene, is to show Vader defending his quaint beliefs against a group of bureaucrats who only believe in the power of technology. In the context of ANH Vader isn't all that powerful within the official hierachy of the Empire. It's doubtful anyone but a select few in the Empire's upper echelon know Palpatine himself is a Force user, and thus Vader is seen by them as the last representative of an order delving in simple tricks and nonsense, a relic from the past. Motti's response is specifically meant to clarify the arrogance of the Imperial bureaucracy in general, and not just his own personal stupidity.

 

Again though ANH doesn't exist in a vacuum. We have to view it as merely one episode in the overall Saga. In ESB we see Vader Force choking officers left & right. Are we to believe this is just a recent habit he's picked up? He also does that to Motti without a moment's thought, in front of Tarkin no less. Vader's abilities & inclinations being unknown & unheard of by senior Imperials is a ridiculous notion. Of course word would get around given these kinds of incidents. Would be silly for R1 to try to go back to the exact kind of situation that ANH implied. It worked in ANH when it was a one off movie. It doesn't work now. Far better for R1 to depict the Vader that the whole Saga establishes, & consign Motti to the status of ignorant fool. As I mentioned earlier, there are plausible ways of explaining Vader's apparent subordination to Tarkin during the brief time of ANH.

 

Yes, we are supposed to view Vader choking officers left and right as a habit he's been allowed to display, since the destruction of the Deathstar and the appearance of a vergence in the Force. Having spent his early days hunting down Jedi, in ANH Vader is very much a watchdog on a leash, subservient to higher echelons of the Imperial bureacracy. Remember up till that point in time the Emperor still needed the facade of the Imperial Senate to enact his policies. It's highly doubtful, that Vader would be allowed to kill people left and right in this climate, where the Emperor is still attempting to appear, as if he's upholding the rule of law. It's only after the destruction of the Death Star that Vader is let loose, to destroy the rebels by any means necessary. Add to this, that he's also searching for his son, and any pretense to respect the Imperial chain of command goes out of the window.

 

I don't agree that the situation in ESB "allows" Vader to summarily execute subordinates that displease him in a way that was prohibited before. The altered hierarchy after the Yavin disaster no doubt removed some checks and balances. But if Vader thought it would not displease or obstruct the emperor then there is little else to stop him.

The arrogance of the Imperial hierarchy and its internal divide and rule policy permits just about anything. Vader waited for Tarkin to stop him. I believe he would not have had any qualms or repercussions had Motti died.

It's just that Tarkin, at that moment, could do without the drama. He looks pretty disturbed enough by Vader's display of power, and the knowledge that he is the Emperor's favourite shows Tarkin what's at stake if a quick resolution is not found.

He immediately assures that assembly that Vader will discover the rebel base and that their objectives will be reached.

Everything that Tarkin says or does is as much to impress and ingratiate himself with Vader (and by extension, with the Emperor) as it is to assert his command of the station and the situation in spite of Vader's assignment.

Having Vader and Tarkin on the Death Star provides a buffer for either men using the weapon for their own ends and in spite of the Emperor's absolute rule.

 

I strongly disagree. Tarkin is clearly the elder, and constantly exerts his superiority in the chain of command and control of the situation: "There you see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable", "She lied to us, terminate her immediately!", "I'm taking an awful risk Vader. This had better work!"

 

We can't assume that Motti's actions speaks for all Imperials. It's more than likely everyone is aware of Vader's powers even if he's under Tarkin in rank. Secondly, Motti (who is outranked by both Vader and Tarkin) was being insubordinate to Vader by basically badmouthing his religion (as Motti called the Force.) In our world, you don't mock your boss' religious beliefs (either alone, or in front of his superior) unless you want to lose your job.

Basically, Motti was clearly overstepping the line by insulting his boss in front of the bigger boss and co., and almost paid for it with his life.

I'm sure Vader does execute Imperial officers when he's able to/thinks he can get away with it. In the case with Motti, well, as we've seen in Rouge One, Vader's kind of having a bad day and is on a short fuse. Motti's insults was the final straw that broke through Vader's restraints so he probably went, "To hell with this..." and instant Force Choke. Tarkin's intervention was to calm everyone down (mostly Vader) and get things back on track.

 

Yes. He has de facto command of the station. Why then is the Emperor sending a former Jedi now a Sith once the architects for the attempted destruction of the Republic, now called the Empire?

Tarkin demonstrating his command and control of the situation precludes any negative reports from Vader to his master. This is what I meant by ingratiating himself. He's not grovelling, cowering or pandering. But he knows he must be careful. Should anything go wrong on Tarkin's watch, Vader is there to chastise anyone he feels disappoints or threatens the Emperor. Whether it is his Master's expressed command or not.

At the same time, Vader is kept in check by the morass of bureaucracy and squabbling among the ambitious, contentious hierarchy that manifests itself in Motti's expression of contempt for Vader's old ways. Vader's demonstration shows that he is not afraid to use his power and may even have ulterior agendas given to him by the Emperor than Tarkin is aware of at that moment.

 

Vader is Admiral Motti's boss? Now that's a completely new angle I wasn't aware of.

As someone who prefers the original context, the situation is quite different: Before the premise or retcon change that was Krennic in Rogue One it looks rather clear to me that the Death Star is Motti's baby. Essentially he's using the same wording Krennic did and his enthusiasm for the Empire's latest weapon creation you'd expect from its creator is all too obvious.

Vader has been sent by the Emperor to find the hidden Rebel base. That's made clear by the draft from January 1976:

TARKIN
Enough of this, release him! These arguments are pointless. Lord Vader we still expect you to find the hidden rebel base before this station becomes operational. It is the Emperor’s will… you were sent here to enforce it.
VADER
As the Emperor wills it, so it shall be. You will have the location of the rebel fortress and I will have the stolen data destroyed.

Although he has thus far been unable to retrieve the stolen data and find the Rebel base, Vader mocks the Death Star, thus insults Motti who - of course - makes fun of Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" which hasn't helped Vader to accomplish his goals.
Possible that it's unwise to upset Vader, but Motti knows that Tarkin needs him and that he will stop Vader should he try to do anything mean to him.

 

I don't get the point of linking that video. Are you saying Lucas didn't want fans reaction to be one of them enjoying watching the film and their favourite characters or are you trying to say those 2 guys are glorifying violence and enjoy watching people being cut to ribbons? Theres a massive difference between the two.

 

Not sure I agree. Choking Motti right in front of even higher ranking Imperials shows that it's not new behaviour in ESB at all. Seeing him do that to Krennic, days before ANH is also no big deal. It's just what he does. So again, Motti appears as a strangely ill informed fool. Pretty sure he wouldn't try that again following Vader's lesson.

Guess we have a different read on things. Yes the Empire including Vader has to pretend to respect members of the Senate, but his respect for Imperial officers was on display as early as that Motti scene, & now the Krennic scene. The only true deference he's ever shown was towards Tarkin during ANH, & there could be several explanations for that.

 

To be fair Motti is at a conference table with a large number of other high-ranking Imperial Officers, while Krennic, whose position has already been made uncomfortable by the defection of Bodhi Rook from the research facility on Eadu, is in the heart of Vader's lair. And in a one to one confrontation with a Sith Lord. (whose bath time he has interrupted)

Agreed, I think you've hit the nail on the head here, so to speak.
I've always been on board with the 'No-attachment' rules myself, the Jedi have great power that has to be used responsibly, hence they are forbidden to act on their emotions or engage in actions (such as becoming attached to others) that could cause them to do this.
And what happens in ROTS when a Jedi does become attached and act on their emotions, collateral damage on a scale that the Marvel and DC universes must see daily, that's what.

 

i would have found vader hunting and killing jedi tragic. i don't watch things with a "yeah! kill them!" fervor.

 

Lucas himself would seem to agree with this. From a 2005 Rolling Stone interview:

Even as you were building up this iconic villain, you knew the tragedy behind it.
He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky.

 

There's no argument that Motti & his kind thought the Death Star was "all that", & no doubt that helped stimulate his silly bravado in that scene. Also no doubt that Vader could, & would choke high ranking Imperials like Motti on a whim. Just for saying something that annoyed him. So if they want to think of him as a flunky as they're getting their tracheas crushed they're welcome to. As the subordinate Sith he's certainly a flunky of sorts to Palpatine. Which is something he was trying to address by recruiting Luke in ESB.

 

vader's first force choking in the saga was of padme long before any of this. force choking is his thing. (though he did it in TCW too)

the ANH conference room scene definitely has a man vs. machine feel. reminded me of john henry. and it's funny how the one who is half machine himself is on the side of man.

maybe motti had only seen vader when on tarkin's leash. i assume motti spends most of his time on the death star. anyway if all motti sees is the emperor's dog temporarily assigned to a different handler (tarkin who never fails to control vader) then i could see him having no respect for vader despite any rumors he's heard. vader's an antique and it's time to retire him.

actually i hadn't thought before about how motti mirrors han. the force? what a waste of time. just use a blaster. and they both like to tell off force elders.

 

The thing to remember in the conference scene is that when Motti is mocking Vader, he's referring to Vader's ability to see the future or suss things out from the Force through intuition, which has done him little good so far. To him, the Death Star is the ultimate power because it can either destroy a planet in small degrees, or all at once. He doesn't understand that the Force is both life and death, something Vader learned a long time ago. So when he chokes Motti, he is showing that he doesn't need a blaster or a Lightsaber to take a life. The Force can be manipulated to do that very thing, thus making him more powerful than this "technological terror".

Tarkin is different since he's seen the Jedi, up close and personal. And he knows that Palpatine is a Sith and what he can do. That is why he shows great respect to him and doesn't go out of his way to provoke Vader. As to Krennic, he has probably spoken to Palpatine in years. Probably not since he brought him the Geonsian plans and told him to build it. I imagine that Palpatine probably didn't talk to too many people after the Clone Wars ended. Thus if you want to go over Tarkin's head, the next in line would be Vader.

 

I grew up with the OT, loved seeing Anakin grow up and turn to the dark side and absolutely loved the R1 Vader scenes.

 

Let's also remember, the Rebels had just stolen the plans for the Empire's SECRET weapon, and Vader had to absolutely do what was necessary to get these back - i.e. mowing down anything in his path to get to the plans.