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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT The reaction to the Rogue One Vader scene is exactly what Lucas wanted to avoid in ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Nerdling, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    He's killing because they're Rebels and they're firing upon him. Just like the Stormtroopers opened fire on the Rebel officers aboard the Tantive IV, as soon as they were through the door. And if you've ever been in combat, you'd know that you cannot observe every detail. Even Luke didn't see Boba getting ready to shoot him with either a toxic dart, or wrist mounted blaster.

    I said it was one or the other, take your choice.

    As I pointed out, Force users cannot see everything when being attacked. Much less see through people, since it is reasonable that his view was obstructed by the officer's body. As to why he went there, it is entirely possible that on approach, he found out that the there was a second ship inside the Profoundity and thus went there.

    Leia didn't know that Vader was going to be at Scarif, much less that he had seen her ship leave. She had intended to escape either through the Profoundity, or leave amiss all the chaos of the space battle.

    That's why she was in the Profoundity. So she could be at Scarif and when Rogue One got the plans offworld, she could then take them to Tatooine and on to Alderaan. But then that all goes to hell, resulting in a new plan. This time, transmit the plans to the Profoundity and then once the Prodfoundity made a short hyperspace jump, exit the ship and head on to Tatooine. But then the Profoundity was badly damaged and so she had to take off, or risk capture.
     
  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Yes, but she then goes off to pick up Obi-Wan despite knowing, that the Imperial forces are in pursuit, which doesn't make any sense.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    True, but she had hoped that she had a enough of a head start to make it to Tatooine, before being found by the Devastator.
     
  4. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 16, 2013
    The plan, as Bale told Mon Mothma was for Leia to contact Obi Wan on Tatooine with the DS plans if they got them. And the Rebels were in no way expecting Vader to show up all of a sudden, hence the sheer panic.
    No matter what, stick to the plan..
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Again we don't know how much time elapsed in between. The Tantive is seen jumping to hyperspace at the end of the movie. Alone with no ship in pursuit. To me that means Leia believed she'd eluded the Imperials.
     
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  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Remember that the ships often come out of hyperspace much further away from the planet that they're going to, rather than being right up close to it. So it is reasonable to believe that the Tantive IV came out of hyperspace at the edge of the Tatoo system and was halfway to Tatooine when the Devastator showed up.
     
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  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    IMO bcs we see the Tantive get away at the end of R1, that movie doesn't create any new issues regarding Leia's decisions. In either case she clearly believed she could safely get to & from Tatooine to pick up Obi-Wan. However it's an open 40 year old question as to the wisdom of that strategy. She had highly sensitive, crucial plans that needed to urgently get to Alderaan or Yavin. Why would she choose that moment to go & pick up Kenobi? All the way out on the outskirts of the galaxy? Seems like a strange decision in terms of timing. When she tells Vader she's en route to Alderaan on a diplomatic mission he could've asked "if that's true why are you here in the Outer Rim?". This is a minor query that ANH created. R1 actually improves things a bit. I believe it's been stated that Scarrif is close to Tatooine. So that helps to establish that the Tantive didn't need to divert far from its urgent mission to get the plans to the Alliance. Tatooine may've been "on the way".
     
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  8. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Leia really should've swapped ships before going to Tatooine given that R1 now reveals the Tantive was in the middle of a huge battle shortly before taking on two vital missions. If not Vader himself tracking them down, surely star destroyers across the galaxy would've been alerted to be on the lookout. I guess she never watched an action movie where the heroes ditch their car for another after narrowly escaping in a wicked chase scene.
     
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  9. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Twas not R1, but the ANH opening crawl which revealed such
     
  10. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002

    Hmm, I forgot. Although looking up the text it doesn't outright state the Tantive was at the battle where the plans were recovered, but rather that Leia is the custodian of the plans and that her ship is being pursued by sinister agents. So there's still room for the idea that the plans were given to Leia after the battle. Does ANH itself clear things up in the beginning of the movie? Haven't watched it in a long time.
     
  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Before R1, what explained Leia taking the plans out to the Outer Rim specifically to pick up Ben & bring him to Alderaan?
     
  12. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    The hologram message
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    It didn't explain why after 18 years it was urgent to pick up Obi-Wan right at that time. To beg him to help in the fight. When Leia had vital plans that needed to get to Alderaan asap. Why divert all the way out to Tatooine? Why not try to drop off the plans first?
     
  14. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    When ANH came out, I assumed Tatooine was quicker to get to than Alderaan. After the PT was complete, I assumed Jedi assistance was Leia's only hope for dealing with Vader, who was leading the pursuit. It would be too risky to lead Vader directly to Alderaan with no Jedi assistance.
     
  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Not sure why since Luke made it clear the planet was out in the middle of nowhere. The wilderness of the galaxy.
    The assistance of an elderly Jedi she didn't even know was still alive? That's worth diverting all the way out to Tatooine for? IMO the events of R1 greatly improved the scenario. That Scarrif was a neighboring system to Tatooine. May as well pick up Kenobi on the way home.
     
  16. Blue 5

    Blue 5 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 6, 2017
    In Episode III, I feel the purpose of Vader in his suit was to show the transition and the "final nail" of his turn to the Dark Side. In Rogue One, the Vader scene was simply a realistic portrayal of a master Force user against common, non-Force users.

    A Level 150 dark lord VS Level 3 foot soldiers.

    The Vader in RotS is also nowhere near as powerful as the Vader in Rogue One. The lie Palpatine told Vader...that he killed Padme...in itself made Vader exponentially more powerful from all of the horrific and catastrophic pain and agony it caused him. Think of the person you love most in life...and try to relate your feelings if they died and you fully believe you are the one that killed them. The remorse and agony would be unfathomable. I expect just that doubled or tripled Vader's power, eventually morphing from Pain to Hate. Hate for everything, even himself.

     
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  17. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    It was never told to us from where it was stolen (at the time ANH was released), so even back then, one just assumed it was somewhere closer to Tatooine than to Alderaan.

    Ummm. What? Why would she address him in a hologram if she didn't think he could be alive??? Also, what does it matter how elderly he is (and 57 is not that elderly in any case)? He's the last Jedi alive, besides Yoda! Vader, a Sith, is dedicated to retrieving these plans. With whom else would it be better to trust them in such a desperate situation?

    Yes. It's her only hope, as she puts it.

    That's just clarifying one of the possibilities: that Tatooine was closer. One could easily just assume that without watching R1.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Once again, the source comes from ROTJ.

    OBI-WAN: "The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate."

    Course, this kinda conflicts with ANH, where she was told to bring him to Alderaan personally. But there is a line of dialogue that was cut.

    VADER: "Don't play games with me, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. You passed directly through a restricted system."

    This missing line here at the end, indicated that Vader saw that the Tantive IV had entered the restricted space where the plans were stolen and then transmitted to her ship. This is why "Rebel Dawn" used the scenario that they did for the transfer of the plans to the Tantive. But because that line was cut, it was unclear how exactly Vader knew that the Tantive was the one who had the plans. Because of the absence of that one line of dialogue, RO was crafted the way it was.
     
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  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Good point. Mind you Leia tells Vader that she was en route to Alderaan on a diplomatic mission. I wonder what excuse she could give for being in the Tatooine System? Perhaps a "mercy mission".
    Bcs she hoped he'd be alive & that R2 could find him. If so she needed to record that message to fill him in on the situation. There's no clear indication that Kenobi stayed in communication with Bail or Leia during the previous 18 years. Therefore Leia had no guarantee that he was still there or still alive. Bail probably just had faith that he was.
    Retrieving Kenobi doesn't seem to have been directly related to the plans at first. She had a mission to bring him to Alderaan to help with their struggle against the Empire. She'd simply planned to pick him up & take him there. Then the scenario changed & she tasked him with a mission to get the plans to Alderaan (later Yavin) himself.
    Her only hope given that her ship was intercepted & boarded. Question is, if that hadn't happened why risk taking the plans to Tatooine & delaying her primary mission, which surely was getting those plans to the Alliance asap? Couldn't Kenobi wait till after that? R1 indicated that she was in the neighborhood already, & as you say that could've been the case even before that. So I suppose it's all in order. Just still seems slightly odd that you have vital plans that must be delivered urgently & you embark on a side mission to try to locate an old Jedi on a remote planet. If Vader hadn't shown up they could've taken a long time to search Tatooine to find Ben. All while the Tantive sits in orbit or at a spaceport with the plans on board.
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    On another note one I only really thought of the other day is the "problem" that R1 gives ANH.

    In the original version of ANH we presume that only Leia knows about the Rebel base on Yavin. No one else does (at least it's never said). Now we know that is not the case and that pretty much everyone on board knows about Yavin base. So now it's not just Leia but everyone who is able to hold out and not reveal the hidden base.

    Very commendable crew.
     
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  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    So not a problem at all then. I sure never thought that Leia was the only Rebel who knew of the base. It's a base! Not a small office for one person.
     
  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    The larger point being that the way the movies work is that as important as specific details can be when you go too far down to things that are not presented in the movie itself then you can get off track.

    It's like saying that it should be easy to find Yavin base from any number of people or computer logs or whatnot.Back tracing Raddus' ship through some means could also be said to be possible. It never comes up in the movies so we don't think about it.

    While in TFA the Resistance trace Starkiller Base from it's location where it fired and reconned it. The First Order then traced the Resistance base from that recon mission.
     
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  23. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Much better scenario. If the crew didn't know, then they all died because "hero" Leia lied to them. Now we know they carried out the mission with full knowledge and of their own free will. And we have R1 to thank.
     
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  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I think that was a given before "Rogue One" came about. Anyone who thought otherwise had a low opinion of Leia.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    This thread doesn't seem to have anything to do with ROTS or the prequels.