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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT The reaction to the Rogue One Vader scene is exactly what Lucas wanted to avoid in ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Nerdling, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Nobody is missing that opinion. Some just don't agree with it. We see a multi-dimensional character. He doesn't have to be tragic or powerful. He can be both.

    No. First, RotS he was recovering and readjusting to his new circumstances. He still managed to destroy everything he could in the room around him before he even left the operating table. Had a Jedi or two discovered the medical facility and attacked, he would have fought them as best he could in a newly, foreign body.

    Second, it would be more like Anakin being given a mission and carrying out that mission. Like killing anybody between him and his rescue of Palpatine from the Separatists. Like taking out escaping Separatist ships from Geonosis.

    Tarkin asked for his assistance. He was trying to recover plans by searching a huge ship of troops shooting at him. It had nothing to do with him looking to kill a bunch of people for the sake of killing a bunch of people.

    This is a different movie being described than what actually played out.
     
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  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It seems that people are determined to speak at crossed purposes about this. We know that it would have been a different ROTS from the one Lucas wanted to make if he devoted movie time following his being put in his survival suit, to show Vader continuing doing his Master's dirty work. Whether it merely extended the film beyond where it concludes now or by substituting existing scenes. That may have been what some people wanted or expected but it's not an artist's job to do that unless that happens to be what they want also.

    In those terms, shoehorning in superfluous scenes of suited Vader in episode III would make as little sense as putting in exposition or scenes to Star Wars in 1977 to convey the gradual loss of humanity that explains Vader's behaviour inthe beginning of that movie. Because it was not the objective Lucas had for Star Wars and Vader in 77. In fact he hadn't even considered anything like that until after that movie was a success.

    The saga from 1978 onwards has been designed to tease out then categorically explain how Luke's father became the guy we we were introduced to in the beginning of A New Hope. Concluding with Episode III, this was the job of the prequels. And it accomplished it, without including any post Mustafar sithing by Vader. So be it.

    To say that Vader immediately post Mustafar carrying out the Emperor's will in the manner shown in the beginning of episode IV would make no sense for his character is just not true. Lucas says that Episode III shows Anakin losing his humanity and becoming the servant of evil he was introduced as in 77. If it's out of character for Vader to behave in the immediate aftermath of Mustafar as he does in Rogue One then the prequels singularly failed to achieve what Lucas claims they were designed to, and audiences need to watch Rebels as well.
     
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  3. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Yup, I thought along similar lines. I enjoyed the scene but something about it just felt wrong initially. Thanks for saying this.
     
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  4. GuardianSoulBlade

    GuardianSoulBlade Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 26, 2015
    I didn't mind that the scene was there, what I do take issue with is that it was far too fast in it's lightsaber movements and doesn't line up with A New Hope and the fight with Obi-Wan at all!
     
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  5. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I would differ on that. I think that is exactly what is being missed.

    I'm glad that you do.

    This is the whole point and the crux of it all.

    For those who lamented the lack of a "Rogue One" style of Vader to been seen in ROTS they don't seem to see the character as 3 dimensional. They don't seem to want or even contemplate that. Their preference seems to be only in dimensions of evil and power. So having a truly 3 dimensional history for the Anakin/Vader character is one they don't want.

    I don't think it's co-incidence that for some fans that they like Vader in ANH, TESB, R1 and the memory of Vader in TFA as opposed to the PT and ROTJ. As Lucas notes the idea that Vader is powerful and in control was a large part of the massive appeal. The movies where he isn't and is actually a pawn and controlled are not for those fans.

    In fact some are quite vehement in their disdain. That Vader could ever be in love or care about people doesn't work for them. Anakin especially as seen in AOTC sends them into fits.

    What does that scenario have to do with the talking points of this thread?

    In the overall fictional world that might be the case. That is not at all what we are talking about. We are talking about how a Rogue One slaughter scene would be totally at odds with the way the story of ROTS is.

    Being Vader is a failure of Anakin not a triumph.

    In the actual making of the movie it did which is the point. That scene was added later after the original shoot because they felt that they were lacking something and they decided it was Vader killing a bunch of people for the sake of doing so. Obviously in the movie they have a reason why he does it but as pointed out for some that played very much against the story of the heroes.

    Which is a production reality but irrelevant to the making of ROTS. That is the story and has been for almost 40 years.

    I don't see why. It's his story not ours. The only circles being spun are for those who for some reason can't accept that the story is his not ours.
     
  6. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    What I liked about Vader's fluid lightsaber movements is how closely they resembled Anakin's old style. In that sense it helps bridge the elegant floral combat style of the prequels with the OT Vader. At the same time I do sort of agree that this Vader that we see in the hallway seems a little too at ease in his mechanical suit compared to the OT where, intentionally or not, his movements always seemed just a little ungainly and machine-like, as though he were never quite comfortable in his own suit.

    As for the scene itself, I'm ambivalent on it. On the one hand I liked it and enjoyed it: it was badass.. But it does come across as somewhat gratuitous on re-watching. Still, to me it actually sticks out less as a clumsy fan-service moment than when he's first introduced coming out of the smoke, where he seems to be peacocking for the camera in a moment clearly meant to get cheers from the audience. That felt more out of character: Vader never struts like that in the OT. He's a no-nonsensr kind of guy. And while Anakin of the prequels wasn't above showing off from time-to-time with his daring leaps and expressive lightsaber techniques, he still had that no-nonsense look to his everyday movements.
     
  7. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I'm a little surprised by some of the disagreements on this thread. It seems that some people are objecting to points that haven't been made or, at least, I couldn't find them when I read through the thread.

    There also seems to be some misinterpretation about what I meant with a few statements that I made in the original post, so I'll clarify.

    I'm not using the term "slaughter porn" to criticize the scene specifically. Attaching the word "porn" to something means to glorify or distort it for entertainment purposes. Some criticized Slumdog Millionaire as "squalor porn" -- in other words, using abject poverty for "feel good" entertainment purposes.

    When I call the Vader scene "slaughter porn," I'm also halfway joking. I enjoyed it.

    However, the scene also has the qualities that suit the language that I used to describe it. Many of us do get excited, even elated, because we get to see Vader wiping out some rebels in R1. We're enjoying an evil character killing the good guys. This is not the typical reaction to a killing spree. It's something horrific that has been flipped to serve entertainment purposes.

    For me, I found it equally scary and entertaining. So, I admit to liking it for its "slaughter porn" qualities. That's all I meant there -- something dark or serious or horrifying flipped on its head so that it would entertaining.


    In this statement, I'm not saying that the viewer in the video is homicidal for enjoying the hallway scene. First, I'm making a joke, and second, what I'm referring to is that the guy in the vid is smiling just after Jyn and Cassian were nuked. That's what I'm jokingly describing as homicidal. It would be very odd for an audience member to have a smile on his face when the main characters have just been obliterated in a selfless act. However, I don't think he's smiling because of that. I think the guy in the video has a smile on his face because he knows he's being filmed and he feels a little silly about it.

    So, no, I am in no way saying that people who liked Vader's hallway slaughter are homicidal.


    Cryogenic,

    Thanks for your post. You make some great points about why Lucas would have never included a scene like this, especially at this point in the Saga, with 8 films in the can.

    I don't think he would've ever gone this far with Vader's brutality. He's always been more reticent about violence. He didn't like Spielberg's choice to have Indy shoot the Arab with the sword in Raiders as a joke, for instance.

    However, what I would add is that I think he would've been even more reticent now at this point in the Saga. There was no "demand" for a killing machine Vader at the beginning of ANH, as his character was simply being introduced there. The idealization of the killing machine Vader only came after his character was introduced to us, and TESB perhaps enhanced that desire for the character. Once people wanted to see Vader commit gratuitous acts of violence, that would have only made Lucas even more reluctant to take Vader in this direction. He would have seen it as giving in to bloodlust.

    So I agree with you that a Lucas directed or produced R1 wouldn't have included this type of scene, and it is more of Disney giving the fans what they want. Again, I admit that I did like the scene, and I think it was in part because of the its Vader badass quality in addition to it being a well-done horror scene. At the same time, I hope we see little or no more of scenes like this. This is an example of "less is more." Lucas was right. A full film of Vader hacking up Jedi would get old very quick. You can't have an entire film where you root for the bad kill guy to slice up the good guys. Nobody roots for Michael Meyers or the Alien. So, then you have to have good guys to care about, and at that point, watching good guy after good guy get chopped to pieces one after another would get pretty redundant, if not totally soul-crushing, really quick.


    grd4,

    I have to agree with your assessment of Lucas. He ended both of his trilogies in ways that transcend typical dramatic conventions. You've most likely noticed the trend in most action movies that they end with a protagonist, who is typically motivated by revenge, violently killing the antagonist. In one of the Marvel films virtually every major character -- good or evil -- is motivated by vengeance for the death of a friend or loved one. Another example, which disappointed me by its baseness was the ending of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, where Caesar killing his rival was depicted as a moral awakening.

    These types of easy endings rely on pretty transparent manipulations of our gut reactions. The hero is hurt; he seeks revenge. Often little separates his story from that of his antagonist. Lucas subverts these typical expectations to give us conclusions that are more narratively challenging opening up more complex and edifying moral ideas. This is true of the story arcs of Anakin and Luke. ROTS depicts Anakin's fall as a tragedy, and RTOJ redeems Vader by having Luke embrace pacifism and self-sacrifice. Imagine how other directors would deal with the same scenarios. A ROTS helmed by another director would have given us Vader hacking up Jedi terminator-style to use Lucas's words. By the same token, in ROTJ, we would have gotten Luke vanquishing his enemies in combat, maybe out-smarting his adversaries in some way. In this respect, the moral and narrative arcs of the two trilogies much more resemble the mythology that inspired them rather than its peers in pop culture.
     
  8. JEDI-RISING

    JEDI-RISING Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2005
    actually Torib i thought the movements of the actors were close in style to Prowse in the OT. he did get to wave his lightsaber around blocking laser blasts more than we got to see the in the OT
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    @Qui-Riv-Brid It's Lucas's story which changed after he filmed the first movie. He had to reconceive the evolution and the backstory in order to fit his notions of a tragic fallen father figure to Vader, whom he'd introduced as one of the emperor's henchmen and the embodiment of the black side of the monochromatic morality that defined Star Wars at the beginning.

    In other words. He changed his mind about Vader after 1977. He chose to compose the backstory to only be inclusive of the moment of his superficial transformation. But in doing so he has his fulfilled his stated intention to formally introduce the character who first appeared in 1977 and whose behaviours and therefore his character is consistent between the conclusion of the prequel trilogy and the beginning of the original trilogy and all points in between. Whether they were in scenarios that George Lucas wanted to bring to the screen or not, including Rogue One.

    As you seem to be ignoring it I'll repeat. As an artist, George Lucas did not personally desire to depict Vader any more than in the timeframe of the the stories he wished to tell. He has rationalised his choices in terms of the objectives he wanted to pursue in the text as opposed to being compelled to dwell on the things that the audience and paticularly the fan might reasonably anticipate and desire. And that is precisely as it should be.

    But now that George Lucas has relinquished control of which timeframes should be developed into stories which faithfully portray the characters he created, the argument that it's his story is redundant. Unless it was categorically proven that the content of that story did not faithfully portray one of his characters within that particular timeframe. But that's character. Not story. Two separate things. The fact that he may not have been moved to realise that particular timeframe in a story for the screen is irrelevant and incidental to authenticity of the character being portrayed.
     
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  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Since after watching R1 Lucas loved the movie to the point of gushing about it over the phone for 30 mins, I find it doubtful that he had a problem with the Vader scene. Given it was a major set piece during the film's conclusion. I thought it was incredible. A great scene & not just for the awe & the thrills it provided. It perfectly showed how screwed the galaxy was with Sith Lords as a looming threat. Just adds to the significance of Luke's emergence.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016

    Yep. In fact Vader's appearance at the end of Rogue One further enhances the definition of the struggle between the Empire and the rebels. Thrilling, moving and compelling as the Rogue rebels ensemble story may have been, when push comes to shove, Vader is the final obstacle if you are taking on the Empire. And you are going to need extraordinary skills, luck or destiny in order to do even contemplate surviving, should you make yourself an enemy in his sights.

    If Vader wasn't involved in the battle of Scarif, and was simply summoned to track down a ship that was observed to have been at or near the battle, then people would have been wondering why the Emperor (or Trakin) did not deploy him earlier in order to safeguard intelligence of their new, secret weapon. It would be a case of locking the barn door after the horse has bolted.
     
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  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Not for a movie that wasn't his. Obviously he had no interest in doing anything like that in the prequels with the armored Vader.

    Not as such. He merged Anakin and Vader into one. They had two different histories which then were combined. He then thought of different variations and settled on what played out in ROTJ and then expanded that in the PT.

    The tranistion from Anakin to Vader is not superficial so I don't know where you are going there. The Vader of the end of ROTS and the Vader in R1 are clearly not merely the same. The Vader at the end of ROTS wouldn't work in R1 anymore than the R1 would at the end of ROTS.

    Ignoring what exactly?

    That's what I've been saying the whole time. I'm glad you came around!

    Not in the least. His story is his story. That is simple fact. Episodes I-VI are that story. Anything else anyone wants to do after is fine but it doesn't effect his story. They stand on their own. What anyone else does stands on that story.

    It is categorical. Lucas didn't do in ROTS what was done in R1 for one scene never mind and entire movie that some wanted.
     
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  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Qui-Riv-Brid I'll come back to rest of your perverse comments later.


    But first I'd like to point out how immature and petulant it makes you look to interrupt a written sentence that begins to assert that you've ignored something and affect ignorance at what that could mean, then pick up the rest of the paragraph restating what you've ignored and then claim ownership of the ideas contained within it, but which you'd been happy to falsely accuse me of failing to understand.

    Plus you have a special, unique definition of what categorically proven means. And you seem to have a convenient problem with pronouns, mixing the story and his story. Nouns too, when you feel like making an argument for story sense in the context of character sense.

    These, and your continuing to wilfully speak at crossed purposes explain a lot about your posts and about you. But I sense that you require a lot more explanation than that which may cause you further embarrassment. So you're going to get it.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas himself never specified how much he had ever intended to show of Anakin killing Jedi, when he was describing the backstory during the 81 story meeting transcripts. Just that Obi-wan soon becomes aware that Jedi are dying and that the common denominator is Anakin visiting the worlds where the Jedi were at the time of the slaughter. Fans, on the other hand, have imagined Vader killing Jedi ever since Lucas talked about making the back story in 77-78. So it is understandable they would want this and for Lucas to not want to spend time focusing on it too much.

    Uh, no. Not in the first films, but as the sequels went along, they did. More so for a slasher like Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees than for the xenomorph. The opening sequence in "Scream 2" is based in part on audience reactions between 1986 and 1990, for horror film icons. The idea of the monster killing people via a rampage is nothing new.
     
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  15. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    The problem is that when George Lucas does a rewrite, it is ok. But when a non-Lucas film has a rewrite, it is superficial because anything not originally conceived in whole is superficial. George responded to the fanbase loving the character of Vader: what a genius. Disney responds to the fanbase loving the character of Vader: what hacks.

    This really seems to be more about an overreaction to the overreaction critique of the prequels than Rogue One itself. I understand that. Nothing is worse than some Red Letter Media zombie talking about why the PT was the worst garbage ever developed. That it ruined their childhood. But don't reciprocate the petulance.

    PT Defender: You will not take Lucas from me!

    OB1: Your anger and your lust for revenge have already done that. You have allowed this dark thought to twist your mind, until now until now you have become the very thing you swore to ignore.

    There really has been no explanation as to why R1 Vader didn't work or was "jarring" to the story
    1. Vader killed Rebels. We already knew and accepted that.
    2. Vader was chasing Leia and the plans in ANH. Makes sense that he was there.
    3. Star Wars has tons of actions scenes. Nothing new.
    4. The severity of the mission called for a response from somebody like a Vader and Tarkin

    The excuses are:
    1. Lucas wouldn't show it. But he did and has. That is a comment on directing style, not character. At no time did Lucas present suited Vader as somebody that didn't kill people or get into the mix of both pilot and ground fights at the front lines.
    2. Well, he moved slowly against OB1. That's actually a Lucas problem. I think Lucas is a creative genius and I can't imagine my life with the SW movies because it is there with my earliest memories. In fact, I can't even clearly remember the first time I saw ANH because I was so young. But genius is not the equivalent of perfect. That scene had the direction of very heavy, two handed laser swords. Unfortunately, Luke already waved it around with one hand earlier. Instead of Lucas just saying "I changed my mind on the weight so we could have better saber fights", he quasi-explained it with "old man and crippled." But then he gave us the prequels with old Yoda and old Dooku fighting better than 20-30 year olds in their prime. And he gave us General Greivous. I don't know if he ever said it, but besides the original directing fact of heavy swords, I reconcile it in my head as the last time Anakin tried to get fancy with OB1, he ended up left for dead and OB1 was stalling to allow Luke to get away. But that excuse to rectify Lucas' directing faux pas also means Vader can in fact fight very well in his suit. ESB proved that. So it also makes the R1 scene possible. And as already mentioned, he was moving economically but effectively in that hallway. So he learned from his Mustafar acrobatic mistakes and decided winning the fight was better than showing off. And it has paid dividends.
    3. He was just there to kill people. No. He was there to retrieve the stolen plans. He didn't have them in the beginning of ANH, so Lucas essentially wrote in the failure of his ultimate mission in that scene. Damn Lucas.
    4. Lucas was more artsy and deep and didn't give into fan reaction. He didn't dumb it down.
    5. Lucas didn't make the R1 Vader scene because of possible fan reaction. He dumbed it down so the dumb fans realized Vader was tragic, not cool.

    Also, we are talking about a fictional movie. Let's keep the conversation friendly.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Darth Vader is in no way like Michael Myers or Jason in terms of the audience's desire to revel in their violent deeds. He's only comparable in being iconic in their own idioms and cinema in general.

    Vader is the antagonist in an adventure story. The others are not. Vader was not celebrated as a rampaging monster. Lucas nevertheless depicted him as such when he slaughtered the separatists begging for peace. Or even as early as the Tusken massacre.

    So what if people anticipated Vader at some point before the conclusion of episode III appearing in his suit behaving in precisely the manner Lucas depicted him before his superficial transformation? So what if Lucas wasn't compelled to extended the timeframe beyond his objectives to accommodate that?
     
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  17. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    This is more or less my opinion. I would just add that I'm surprised that so many fans whine about Lucas not showing Vader in action in ROTS. As many before me pointed out, Vader is shown in ROTS in his prime. Vader is not the suit, is the man (or what’s left of him) inside it. So, Vader is Vader even without the suit, I would even say that he is more menacing and frightening without it. In ROTS we see who would be Vader without the suit: even bigger monster if everything (except the suit) would be the same. SO, for me Vader couldn’t be more horrifying that in the scene of the march to the Jedi Temple. For me t would be always the most macabre scene of the whole Saga. In this aspect R1 couldn't offer something 'more' because everything is told and shown (in this aspect) already. Of course, this was fan service but I think Edwards tried to show some human part of Vader, making him look more like Anakin (in movements) and also showing what is left by his human body (in the castle). Of course, the latter scene is obviously cut and re-edited in a very clumsy way; I'm curious what was the original one, that maybe would clarify the director's idea.
     
  18. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Hardly ever is it ok. Usually pretty brilliant.

    Well if you think that then fine but you really aren't giving the new movies much credit. As yet were really don't know enough about the making of TFA to say either way yet and R1 we know more but not the whole story.

    That really doesn't work anymore than the R1 scene would work in ROTS or the ROTS scene in R1.

    They are separated by decades in and outside of the story.

    If Lucas simply took the ANH Vader and kept him that way and just made him "Evil-er and evil-er" then that would fall into the "hack" connotation. Hack writing has been given an overly negative spin when I'd say that it is the backbone of writing in every field. You need people who can create volumes of script quickly.

    Lucas made Vader "Evil-er" in TESB but then turned it totally around in ROTJ and made him "weak" which really didn't go over well for some.

    I mean look at this!

    http://movieweb.com/rogue-one-phantom-menace-attack-clones-revenge-sith/?page=2

    The Darth Vader that we saw at the end of the Star Wars prequel trilogy was in a much different place. Princess Leia had died and with that so had Vader's thoughts of being a father. He was no longer fully human. The Darth Vader that we see in Rogue One: A Star Wars Story is a completely different animal. In his big lightsaber wielding scene, in which he goes after the plans of the Death Star, it is as if a wild animal has been unleashed. He literally destroys everybody in the room. Multiple laser beams are coming at him and he deflects every one with ease. Aside from this, every scene he is in is terse and fraught with tension. Simply put, Darth Vader is not messing around. So well done is Rogue One: A Star Wars Story that we almost feel compelled to watch Episode 4 immediately just to see how the portrayal of this character, across many years and films, connect. Sadly, the prequel trilogy never really comes as close as Rogue One to showing us this much complexity of the man in black. Granted, he doesn't have nearly as much screentime, but that in itself is a problem.

    That really sums it up I think for those who think that. Vader cutting people down like an animal is complexity itself. Meanwhile people like this totally overlook the actual complexity of Anakin cutting down the sandpeople in AOTC.

    As Jar Jar would say "What is thesa thinkin?" To them Vader is only Vader in the suit.

    That would be a bit weird though as R1 is very much in the tonality and intent of the prequels than the OT and ANH in particular. Far more than TFA was and that was a lot.

    I see the problem here and I thought this was addressed well already but to restate:

    The R1 Vader did work for Rogue One. It wouldn't have worked for ROTS.

    The ROTS Vader did work for Revenge of the Sith. It wouldn't have worked for R1.

    Not in ROTS. Not actually in the OT either but that is another point brought up by someone else which I think was a good observation.

    I don't think it's been anything except that.
     
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  19. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016

    Lucas should have taken it to marketing company then he would have realized that while a great story TPM would have been better served as a Hobbit like predecessor book to the prequels rather than an actual entry into the saga. They would have told him instead of cramming Anakin's entire arc into the last 30 minutes of ROTS we could have started the prequel trilogy with Anakin already as a young padawan to Qui Gon in the Clone Wars and saw a much more natural progression to darkness over the course of 3 films. Maybe then we could have gotten an already "turned" Darth Vader hunting down the jedi knights in secret in the last film before being confronted by Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
     
  20. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    He was Vader before the suit.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    That's Vader on Mustafar. R1 Vader is that character in his famous survival suit and helmet.

    The only reason there is a Vader like that in Rogue One is because we've seen it before in RotS. Just not suited.

    The arguments that they are different and therefore wouldn't make sense being depicted in another story in the same time frame are absurd. If he's in "a much different place" Why does George Lucas claims that the prequels are the backstory that explain how the character of Darth Vader in A New Hope got to that place.

    I'm sure he'll be surprised to learn that he failed to do that and that Vader at the end of the prequels is still someone else.
     
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  22. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I have to agree with this. When I first saw him standing there bathed in the glow of his own lightsaber, listening to the ragged breathing of his iron lung, all I could think of was, "At one point, you were Anakin Skywalker... the Podracing Champion, the Jedi, the hero of the Clone Wars..." It really struck to me just then and there just how far he had fallen.

    Is he a killer? Yes, because at this point that's all he's been doing. He's just an enforcer -- just one more cog in the Empire's gigantic death machine. Whatever trace of Anakin Skywalker he has is long gone. He's not going to suddenly have a change of heart midway through his slaughterfest and say something like, "I will let you go. Do not think I'll extend this mercy a second time" and let the other redshirt people flee. Anakin Skywalker is GONE. The Vader we saw at the end of ROTS was when his 'Anakin' persona still had some semblance of a grip on him. This Vader? The one we see hacking his way through the hall, slicing everyone and throwing them around? That's the mechanical, emotionaless Vader. There's a REASON Obi-Wan referred to him as "more machine now than man."

    This IS Darth Vader -- the epitome of evil. Most of here (I honestly to god hope) know that what he's doing is evil and don't actually want to be just like him. Buuuuut that doesn't make his scenes any less 'kickass'.
     
  23. Smellmet

    Smellmet Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2017
    This is why the 'nooooo' in ROTS never bothered me at all.
     
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  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The line isn't the problem. It's the terrible attempt at pantomime that accompanies it.

    I'm going to clear this up right now about Vader's appeal.

    Do you want to know why OT Vader's appeal endures?

    It's because

    - Luke can appear in one or two other big features but remain largely absent from cinemas (loved him in Vlllage Of The Damned though)

    - Leia can marry Paul Simon and write movies for Meryl Streep,

    - Han Solo can marry Ally McBeal and get an earring

    - but Darth Vader will always be Darth Vader. I'm never going to be flicking channels and stop at the True Movies channel to see Vader waiting for his wife's biopsy results on Christmas Eve when they receive a telegram saying that their son is KIA in the middle east but their dog is expecting puppies.
     
  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Looking past all the rest of your personal attacks on Qui-Riv-Brid directly underneath the above comment, I find it odd that you would use a term like perverse, since you lambasted other posters for their use of certain adjectives earlier on:


    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...o-avoid-in-rots.50045148/page-2#post-54287776


    Can't you just respect the fact that someone sees things a different way than you do? And why attack a patient, careful reader like Qui-Riv-Brid, of all people; who usually (and this thread is no exception) pulls out fragments and goes to some length to flesh their objections to each bit out?


    Your rather boisterous attempts at defending the RO slaughter episode, while also making broadside utterances against ROTS Vader, is a bit puzzling. I understand you might find his portrayal in ROTS to be unsatisfying, even (to use your wording) terrible; but I don't think these attacks are very helpful. Seems you're looking to get a rise from people.