PT The reaction to the Rogue One Vader scene is exactly what Lucas wanted to avoid in ROTS

It's not Rogue One's job to explain how Vader is affected in or by the deeds he's seen committing any more than it was Episodes IV-VI job. Lucas made a prequel trilogy to do that.

The comment about the pantomime isn't meant to connect anything. I was just remarking on it in reply to another post on Vader's state of mind when he sees himself in the suit.

 

Bang on! Just the kind of nonsense strawman I was earlier alluding to. I'm glad you blew it up with another classic Quantum word-bazooka.

Exactly. We can't make Lucas into a deity; but it's fine for the rest of the Internet to suggest he's a cruising hack, a racist, a klutz, a fool, a "Galactic Gasbag" -- Darth America -- of the highest order?

This is about the only place in cyberspace, even now, where you might be allowed to express some hot gay love for George Lucas (of the purely "sapiosexual" kind, of course) for five minutes without being stomped on. But only about five minutes, mind.

Yeah, the man isn't perfect -- but when has brilliance or genius ever been any such thing? It's like some Star Wars fans, in their haste to tear others down and run a "balanced" (Fox News) narrative, have a complete break with knowledge of human nature. People, by definition, have flaws and are flawed. But some rise higher than others above their own murk and the constraining, contaminatory effects of their local environments. Not a moral judgement either way; just a recognition that some people really hit high and master something; and a rare few are even fit to carry the label "genius".

It's good to have direct confirmation that they deliberately went back for "reshoots" and added that piece of fan service. Which makes me wonder all the more about Lucas supposedly being super-pleased with RO. He fought his whole life to avoid having anything unnecessarily and dictatorially imposed on his films; and he especially made a point of highlighting how the prequels were never intended to be a Vader slaughterfest. So for Vader to get his little clay-pigeon/head-bopping slasher scene in the Edwards spin-off, as a kind of happy finish climax to the Death Star snuff flick, only inclines me to be even more skeptical about the whole Disney transition; and the information being fed to a fan public that has never, ah, let's say, had the most discerning information-crunching intellect in the world.

Seconded. It comes off, to me, as almost Neo-Trumpian in its triumphal register: Vader gets splatted with proverbial egg yolk. But that's okay, folks, (Jobs! Mexicans! China!) because he looks cool being splatted with yolk ("I don't care! I'm rich!"); and he sounds cool because the music is so eager to herald his mini rampage ("I don't like to lose! I only like war when we win!"). Vader isn't really wrong ("FAKE NEWS!"), just momentarily admiring the view of his Mar-a-Lago resort still safe from the hairspray blast on Scarif (anything to the contrary is "FAKE NEWS!"). Crooked Leia got away; but he's still gonna put her in jail, folks. Seriously..... it has a fairly masculine ballast.

I'm taking marriage requests all week.

 

I would say the utterly horrific screams for help illustrated them as more than "bowling pins to be knocked down."

 

We don't know who any of them are. They share the same fate as nameless people buried in a mass grave or killed in an industrial accident; or, for that matter, the billions of animals on the planet slaughtered for their fur, their tusks, their meat every year -- anything humans want to pillage and take for themselves.

I mean, they're just there to be eliminated by Vader in his windmilling fury. I am sure some will be given their own little backstories in the future or whatever, but that doesn't magically enrich the scene as it stands. They have the same fate as goombas in "Super Mario Bros."; and their horrified screams are not more dramatic than NPCs that die by the ton in modern first-person games.

Now, granted, their being essentially nameless and faceless actually isn't a limitation in and of itself. I might just be an odd duck (quackety quack-quack), see, but I'm more affected by the deaths of particular battle droids (also obviously relatively nameless and faceless) in the prequels than I am these guys. Might be something to do with the way Lucas better understands the tragicomic nature of existence and glibly communicates that through his robot slave race. For instance, there's a battle droid visibly quivering when he's under orders with the rest of his detachment to "finish off" the Jedi in the conference room on the TF ship menacing Naboo, and I really feel for the guy. He's not even real; not even there-there. Yet my heart kind of breaks for him. I know he's only doing his duty; and his fear isn't even recognized as an existential reality by anyone in that world. But I see it and I see the horrible Sisyphean fate of this guy and all battle droids in an instant.

I get a bit of a similar reaction when I see that droid blasted clean from one of those big water-wheel vehicles on the beach, flying past the camera as a Wookie-copter careens past in the other direction, as the Order 66 sequence simultaneously peaks and winds down on Kashyyyk. The horror of the battle droids in the control room of Mustafar is also emotional; or it can be (depends on my mood). Because, again, they are poor little wretches who've had miserable, unsympathetic lives; not even seen as sentient lifeforms in their own regard. And here they are, in their last moments, honourably put pointlessly defending the Separatist leaders, and obviously thrown into confusion by Anakin's sudden turning on them and everyone in the room. I wonder what their last thought patterns really look like.

Sounds strange, but I guess it's like the way some have a really emotional reaction to a painting; maybe even a very abstract one. And yet others feel nothing. Perhaps it's Lucas' deep mastery of colour and geometry; perhaps the way the music is integrated; perhaps subtleties in the animation; perhaps all of the former meeting the tragicomic slave existence of the droids I mentioned a moment ago. But whatever it is, it creates a connection in my mind. Lucas' films are very enchanted: cognitive and almost mystical in their peculiar symmetry, depth, and fussy grandeur. Here, again, is where the RO slaughter falls down for me (no pun especially intended). It is, as I previously said, well-executed: balletic, horrifying, surreal; almost stirring. And yet, to me, it feels imposed, fake, forced, mechanical, soulless, cheap, dirty, artificial. Like some North Korea military propaganda piece. "This is how we'll take over the world!" Yeah, ugh... Okay. Or maybe a car advert; it has a slick, cold sense of the picturesque and is emblazoned with a false fury; yet perhaps so saturated in ultra-violence it begins to fold back on itself and become a meta-pun for everyone's dark fascination with the whole series.

Either way.................. a misshot, in my opinion, at conveying true horror and despair.

"Coming Next Year: Vader Tournament 2050. Available exclusively for Xbox One."

 

I don't think this scene really "undermines" anything from eps I-VI, I agree with you that Lucas purposefully tried to make Vader's slaughter of the Jedi in ROTS more shocking than "bada$$", and rightfully so IMO, hence the fact that the only Jedi we see him murder (discounting the hologram footage) were small children. But it wasn't really the job of RO, which ends only moments before the start of ANH, to show Vader's fall from grace. That was the purpose of the PT.
Since VFX technology had improved considerably between 1977 and 2016, and since Edwards had access to better stunt people than David Prowse. RO presented the chance to finally show audiences the truly monstrous Vader that we'd all heard about, but never really seen on screen.
Personally I loved it. I also think its as well to remember that Lucas not only liked RO, but was quite happy to indulge his audience in the odd bit of fun "slaughter porn" as well. I mean whichever way you look at it, Anakin beheading Count Dooku with two Lightsabers in a scissor grip is pretty "cool", and then there's his Separatist slaughter on Mustafar. Enjoy

 

Without EU material, how many Jedi taken out it Order 66 can be named?

 

Cryogenic To be fair we don't know who any of these poor sods are either.


son_of_skywalker03 Aside from Mace Windu, I don't remember any being mentioned by name in the movies.

 

Clever -- but there's no need to go there. I thought you might, young padawan, but I'll just answer by saying, as I tried to illustrate in my waffle about battle droids, that their names don't really matter either way. It's about the emotional immediacy of the shaping of the destruction imagery itself. Either a person feels something or they don't.

I feel for the Jedi in Order 66 because of this stunning, sweeping betrayal that is happening across multiple planes of action in the slaughter sequence. The sequence is carried by gorgeously tragic music, opulent imagery of alien war-torn worlds, the Jedi dying in a most sudden and dishonourable (or at least dirty, underhanded) way, and how so much of the whole event is emotionally anchored through Yoda's reactions. It feels like the galaxy breaking apart; the Force weeping at the inevitability of it all.

Also, again, specific looks and textures can provoke some strange moods. The look of the whole sequence, in my opinion, is provocative enough to be lyrical and haunting on its own terms. We're witnessing brutal genocide. Dozens/hundreds of Jedi are being openly fired at as they dutifully serve the Republic and are exterminated like vermin and left to rot by their former comrades who blast them down (or, as seems true in the case of poor Aayla Secura, apart), with total indifference. The Jedi Order: a noble institution with noble intentions, mass-murdered into galactic history.

 

Spoiler

 

And the screams plus desperate hopelessness of the nameless rebels conveyed the utter horror it is to stare down Darth Vader. We don't need to know them for the feeling to be there.

 

You've mentioned horror a few times -- accepted.

But do you feel sadness or pity for any of the nameless fellows murdered?

 

I felt their desperation to survive. Did we need to feel sadness or pity for the rebels gunned down to start A New Hope?

 

I suppose that can be an emotional response of sorts.

But all I was chasing there was...... Is there a real sense of "OMG! How horrible for those people!" (or for Vader himself).

Or is it more about a kind of artificially-gripping horror?

See, in all the former slaughter sequences, some greater sadness and despair can be felt, in my opinion; or certainly in my experience.

But with the RO sequence, I think they simply crafted something that would feel invigorating and cool and get people's hearts pounding a bit.

Different aesthetic values, in my opinion, between George Lucas and the current property holders.

 

We knew them. They were trying to secure the stolen Death Star plans. Same as ANH.

Same as the stormtroopers killed that had no backstory. Same as the rebels killed on Hoth with no backstory. Same as the X-wing and Y-wing pilots that were shot down over the Death Star. Same as that A-wing pilot that crashed into the Super Star Destroyer bridge. Same as the Sepratists that essentially had a backstory of sitting at a table with Dooku and then Greivous.

What is the backstory of Jabba's slave dancer?

Let's not forget the senseless slaughter of Alderaan. I'm sure we didn't need to actually "see" the Death Star blow up a planet. Lucas wanted to leave all that stuff implied, but never shown. I think Kurtz snuck that one in behind his back.

So you've set up a "strawman" to argue against. Ok.

 

Why does it matter than they are nameless? I mean I felt it when nameless extras were killed during the beach assault in saving private ryan (and I could name a zillion other examples from other films)

 

There was definitely a despair in that scene.

 

You're tough, Jester -- but I like you!

I think, in the examples you and son_of_skywalker03 cite, which are all fair to mention, there's more of a "verite" effect at work. In other words, you're just being shown certain horrors of combat and internecine strife in more of an "as is, take it or leave it" kind of way.

But the construction and positioning of the RO scene is different. I see it as something of a trick, almost like Disney spiked the popcorn, to get people to come away from the film feeling a bit more wow-ed than they'd otherwise have been. Trying to give people some bang for their buck (which isn't bad by itself -- of course), but in a way that tries to recklessly patch over other potential deficiencies and disappointments in the movie's delivery and narrative. "Look, folks! Here's a pink elephant!" I guess I have quite a few objections to it. It feels trite, forced, shallow, obvious.

Yes, I'm throwing even more adjectives out and getting a bit boring with it now, surely; but.......... I do like to convey a feeling more than one way when I can.

I dunno. I think it's all a bit like seeing the Tantive interiors and Leia's plastic CG smile at the end; manipulation overload. A fake "action gloss" (the words "pig" and "lipstick" also come to mind) Disney put on the movie to boost word of mouth and get a few more ticket sales. But at the expense of a more balanced, cautious, proportional cinematic experience.

 

Well, strictly speaking, it doesn't. However, I felt like pointing out they're nameless to suggest an extra layer of difficulty in identifying with them; if, that is, the scene isn't necessarily doing a lot else (subjectively speaking) to make a viewer care; to truly pull them into their fate or the sheer devilishness those people are up against.

To go back to what I said about Order 66, some of those Jedi are pretty nameless or unexplored (in effect). But, in my view, that sequence is on a different level of craftmanship, and there is much more happening, on different levels, to cause emotion -- not just horror; but sadness, pity, melancholy, even a sort of wistfulness (how could this finally come to pass?) -- to well up inside the viewer.

The RO Vader slaughter is a neat contraption, but more, in my opinion, like watching a trained monkey at the circus go to town. I get sad about it in a different way. Feels like Vader and Lucas' universe have been manipulated and made to perform a certain way against their will. I watched it a couple more times on YouTube, and yeah, it's impressive; but only in a way that leaves me with a fairly bland, empty feeling.

 

What deficiencies and disappointments with the delivery and narrative? Without the Vader scene the Rebels (excluding those on Scarif) seemingly get away scot free. The inclusion shows that Vader is less chasing, and more hunting down those that would actively dissent from the Empire. If Vader himself is after you, the situation is as dire as it gets.
Yes, people definitely got excited for the scene. But this is a fanbase that includes those that actually argue in favor of the Empire.

 

Well, in terms of basic narrative/puzzle-piece logic, it makes a sort of perfectly acceptable, procedural kind of sense. I agree with you that, as they constructed it, the rebels really needed to face one more dilemma; but they probably rejigged it all in editing so that the film suddenly needed that piece when it probably didn't (at least, not in such a rudimentary way) originally.

You know, lock someone up a while, starve 'em, and they're soon gonna be in need of water and sustenance. If you start to push something a certain way and muck about with it, you then create a "need" that might not have been there before. I'm alluding here, in broad terms, to the reshoot process RO was subject to.

But other deficiencies and disappointments might include some panic on Disney's part that the film was originally too dour (dour, not "dark", per se), that maybe it was a bit lacking in some of the more rugged Star Wars magic, and that maybe there was concern that people were being left with a flat ending: an ending that worked, but maybe induced panic in Disney so they tacked this Vader ending on. We know it wasn't there to begin with.

Of course, Star Wars movies aren't strangers to a reshoot process; but prior reshoot processes tended to be artistically allowed for in advance and to capture new scenes that imbued their films with more depth and poetry. Like Lucas reworking Sith, eight or nine months after shooting the year before, to include the "ruminations" sequence, and Anakin being more torn. But the RO Vader scene, while partially "motivated" by the plot mechanics, seems to have been crow-barred into the film in a calculated bid to give people some last-minute jollies.

I see your take on it, though. I know, right? People love all kinds of things about these movies. Perhaps a dark, crazy ending is exactly what the doctor ordered. I can't say it's totally wrong; only then it feels off to me. And for various reasons I tried explaining before. But everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

 

Cryogenic
I saw it as a great way to bridge R1 and ANH. You can't watch R1 and not feel a massive temptation to immediately throw on ANH. I saw the whole movie as a way to think about all the things going on concurrently as the SW trio are doing their thing.

The Vader scene was anything but a false hype move to make the previous movie go from "meh" to "wow". Seeing that Stormtrooper transport Jyn on the prison planet sprawled out in his unkempt armor actually gave weight to the Stormtroopers. That dude has become complacent because the Empire has been in control for about two decades now. Things have somewhat normalized. There is not a big battle going on between a Rebellion and the Empire. The cycle has started to come full circle. The Empire is starting to take itself for granted. They aren't staring at possible defeat. They are staring at a possible thousand year/generation rule on autopilot.

The Rebellion was divided. And not only amongst the inner circle, which appears to be mainly Senators, but between divisions that want to bring Erso in front of the Senate and those that just want to kill him to stop future harm. And then we have rebels that aren't part of the rebellion, like Saw's group. And Saw is a mirror of Vader to a degree. He's broken and can barely remember why he fights. Just that they must.

The PT had me itching to rewatch the OT because some scenes felt like they were new and had added context. Same with R1. Less so with TFA.

 

It's funny you mention "dour" seeing as I just used that to describe the Superman we get in the DCEU movies up in the Social Thread.

 

I think it ties in for the most part "well enough" to ANH. Just, very superficially.

"Here is a chaotic and disturbing scene of Vader killing the Rebels. This is to show why he is so angry"

"Oh I see..."

I mean, I guess it does its job. Maybe there is something slightly "poetic" about R1's slaughter house, with the complimentary Focus on slaying the Rebels, signifying Vader's dissipating humanity...

Eh..I'm not that hung up on that scene as I seem to be..It's..."inoffensive" in a way. But I question if it was for the greater good of replacing scenes of characters we are supposed I care about. Vader/Anakin, already has gained his 6 arc structure. He is complete.

So I see it a bit pointless to include him so much where it affects the characters.

 

Oh, yes. There is a very clear, totally palpable method in their madness. Mind you, speaking of "palpable", people used to express exactly the same craving about wanting to pop ANH in the DVD player after ROTS. Maybe I'm just bitter RO has stolen that crown.

I'll admit... It was creepy how they had all those various weapon designs and dastardly project ideas stashed away on Scarif; and how Tarkin is like, "Eh, nuke the data centre" at the end. You offer an eloquent defence. I suppose situating the movie so close to the "lip" of ANH does give it a certain set of advantages in terms of the themes you describe there.

Oh, I like that! That's good. I also "saw" him as an analog/nod to Kane Starkiller from the rough draft of "The Star Wars" (now a completed comic book mini-series):

(sic)


KANE

You won’t have to. My power unit has more than half life…. Use it.

The withered Jedi opens his tunic revealing a metallic chest covered with electrodes. With his one good arm, he grabs his chest and rips loose and miniature power unit similar to the one on the table. Everyone is taken by surprise. The general and the young Starkiller both rush to the side of the dying Jedi. The old man turns to his son.

KANE

Trust my judgment, Son. Serve your new teacher well.

The Jedi’s breathing becomes more difficult as he turns to the general.

KANE (cont.)

An honorable death, my friend. May the force of others be with you….

Kane Starkiller passes on to the other world. Everyone is stunned. The general breaks the moment of silence.


http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-star-wars-rough-draft/

Fair enough.

 

Yes. It seems to be the modern trend. What was so blissful and extraordinary about the Lucas saga, in my opinion, was how colourful and varied -- *is* how colourful and varied -- those films are. All of them. Even ROTS.

But we're now seeing quite the plunge into more moody, anguished, self-serious blockbuster films. RO has that a bit (certainly compared to ANH). It's more like an expensive HBO "mini series" take on Star Wars ("A Star Wars Story"???) that somehow got crushed down into a cinema release. The look, the feel, the themes, the general personality of it.

In RO's defence, and as much as I enjoyed the underrated "Superman vs. Batman: Dawn of Justice" movie, it did get a bit much at the end; practically drowning its climax in over-the-top, indulgent, noisy, messy visual spectacle. RO isn't that bad. The Vader scene does have an Anakin-like efficiency to it. I'll give it that much. Oh, and it offers just a tad more physical realism, despite the fact that Vader is using the Force, too.