The Reason why George Lucas needs to make episodes 7-8-9

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by JediofAlcatraz, Jun 16, 2009.

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  1. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    No, in my opinion the redemption doesn't come from Luke's forgiveness, but from Obi-Wan and Yoda, who accept him as an equal, redeemed, whole again (and young in the new version). That's the whole point of the scene: Vader takes off the mask, talks to Luke, dies, is burned and his "spirit" is joined with the Force. Everyone looks at him proudly and he smiles. The ghost scene gives meaning to his sacrifice, and to the title of the movie: Return of the Jedi (I know you'll disagree with me on the meaning of the title, but I don't think, even for a second, that a title is meant to have just one meaning).
  2. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Let's see.

    First of all, in both trilogies, for whatever reasons, when we reach the climax, the political story becomes the backdrop for the personal story. ANH is fairly political, but when we reach Return, the political aspect about the Empire vs. Republic is lost in favour of Luke vs. Vader vs. the Emperor. Same thing happened with the PT. After the very political TPM and AOTC, ROTS placed the emphasis on Anakin's fall, and the creation of the Empire just as a subplot (basically, just a scene is devoted to it, a scene placed between the key moments of the movie). That's why I find it appropriate that ROTJ doesn't focus on the re-establishment of the Republic. I suspect that a third trilogy, which Lucas at least, would end up the same way.

    Secondly, you failed to address my points about the Emperor and Anakin being the basic stones for the Saga as it is right now. Return of the Jedi changed a lot of things. Suddenly, the ultimate bad guy is no longer Vader, but the Emperor. Suddenly, Vader is not the vilain, but the hero that has to be redeemed. I know that the main character is still Luke, but the one who saves the day and kills the villain is Vader.
    So ultimately, Return of the Jedi showed that the bad guy was the Emperor and Vader is who saves the day and "brings order" (thanks to Luke of course). The PT is built around those things.
  3. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
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    This is a really, really interesting idea. Eliminate the Force Ghosts shot, or, at least, remove Anakin, & the path for a ST is opened. What's particularly compelling is how easily it could be done. Remove or alter two shots. Easy. It would also happily cauterise the ridiculous debate about whether or not Anakin has become a Jedi again, or not.

    From this new, altered perspective, Anakin's redemption has begun, but is not yet complete. Luke Skywalker has to atone for the sins of the father, or, perhaps, his successor will do so. In this context, it's far more appropriate that this successor would be another Skywalker, & would make the trilogy of trilogies far more coherent.

    It wouldn't be the original eps VII-IX, but it would be a terrific way of perhaps exploring what those films might have been about & concluding the saga as originally intended, while keeping the thematic structure more recently created intact.

    Two shots. Then three more movies.

    What's even more interesting is that it would tie into zombie's argument in TSHOSW, one that was sadly lost among all the yelling & screaming of the nay-sayers, that with subtle changes in the storylines of the continuing films, GL was able to completely & utterly transform the big picture of what 'Star Wars' was all about. It was a cheerful comic-book type of one-off film. then there were going to be more. Then there was a massive Foundation-style trilogy of trilogies, separate, yet connected. Then it was just "The Star Wars Trilogy". And then it became the six episode "Tragedy Of Darth Vader".

    And now it could become the nine-episode "History Of Those Who Walk The Sky", if GL is inclined to do so. And it could work. Put aside all the OT vs PT vs SE nonsense, when it comes down to this level, it truly is fascinating just how an ongoing story can be so completely transformed from what one originally perceived it to be with the most subtle changes.
  4. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Fans got mad when they made a trilogy with no Darth Vader, lets see if we can do it again. That'll work.
  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    That's a big generalisation to say "fans got mad". Huh? Every fan knew the PT wasn't about Vader. It was about Anakin becoming Vader. I expected a cameo of Vader at most, or maybe a montage of him hunting down some jedi but that was it. The PT films were still huge successes and rightfully so. If anything, they showed there is still a love for all things SW.
  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Most of the fans I know cling to their OOT and try not to THINK about "the new ones." They usually start off talking about the special effects looking cartoony, then they talk about the casting and the acting, and if we make it that far it's the design, and sometimes the music. And then we start re-imagining the PT so that it looks more like the OT. Remember when Star Wars was retro? If they can give the ST a sort of retro-chic, maybe Star Wars will be considered hip again.
  7. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    Thats because the acting, writing and directing sucked, not because of Darth Vader or no Darth Vader.
  8. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    No, the redemption comes from his actions, the ghost scene is a reward. Anakin saves his son from harm. Redeemed. He was a bad man who showed that he is still a good man. Luke finally faces him--"you were right about me." Anakin Skywalker had returned. "You've already [saved me], Luke." If he tumbled down the shaft with the Emperor he would still be redeeemed, because the point is that he atoned for his sins with a good deed. That's the redemption. There's no redemption in him being a ghost, a redemption is making up for bad deed, and his did that with his actions when he saved Luke. The "etenal youth as a ghost" element is a reward. A separate concept from his redemption, and the reason why people have a problem with it.
  9. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    And the reward comes because he redeems himself. He is able to "return" as a Jedi, and we have to see that. That's a huge moment (also for Luke, to be able to see his father whole again), much more significant than having Coruscant or not in the climax.

  10. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    :p





    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  11. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    So by your admission he is redeemed without the Force Ghost. Ergo, the arc of the character and the thematic meaning of the scene--Vader's redemption--remains intact.

    Well, I would argue that we saw him return when he was unmasked. It's Anakin, turned good again, and he has a heart-to-heart with the son where he thanks him for "saving" him. The ghost scene just re-iterates what is already there.

    However--

    The whole point of this tangent would be that the ghost element would be moved into the ST. Hence, that element is still preserved. You still have the climax of ROTJ--the Empire defeated, Vader turned to good, and father and son made peace. You just don't get the added gravy of seeing Vader return to his peers. The film would still work, and the one "bonus" element would be part of the arc of the films that follow.

    ROTJ would work fine without his ghost, it's not like suddenly the film would be a let-down, and you still would have Yoda and Ben acknowledging Luke's success. You just wouldn't get the extra finality of having Anakin present, but that's because ROTJ would no longer be the finale, it makes sense that that element would be moved into the films that conclude the storyline.
  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The acting, writing, and directing is worse in ROTJ. The prequels are disliked for reasons other than that.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Let's not turn this into a PT vs. OT thing. zombie was specifically addressing the assertion that people disliked the pT because Vader wasn't the villain(seriously, who are these people? I've never met them, even here).

    Let's look at a possible villain for the ST.

    It's practically right there in front of us what he would be like especially if you look at what the possible themes of the sequels would be: distinguishing right from wrong and making the right choices.

    A republic trying to fill the vacuum created by the the Empire's fall. Recriminations and revenge. Chaos.

    Think about who would fit that.
  14. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    [image=http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg]?
  15. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    What I'm getting at is that we already see Anakin make the wrong decision, and then Luke make the right decision. The Empire rises out of the crumbling Republic, and the Rebellion surfaces to defeat the Empire so that the Republic can be rebuilt. The poor galaxy is exhausted. How long can this go on? 12 episodes?
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    [face_laugh]

    Well yeah but after Independence, the 13 English colonies of America didn't just throw up their hands and say "well, that was tiring. I'll think I'll take a nap instead of going to this Constitutional Convention thingy".

    And look at what happened when the Warsaw Pact nations were freed up. When the old Soviet Union frittered away.

    The field is rife with potential conflict in a ST.

    lol@Jedi Keiran Halcyon


  17. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Okay. How about this. The new republic faces a mysterious new threat. The dark side returns in the form of a deadly virus, and according to prophecy, only the Skywalker clan can cure it. The greedy Bacta corporation, Bactanin consider the Skywalkers' increasing fame a danger to its survival. In the end, midichlorians are rediscovered and the virus-contaminated CEOs die refusing to believe in force-healing.

    VII: Attack of the Plague
    VIII: Bactanin Strikes Back
    IX: The Revenge of the Midichlorians
  18. Topher1980 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2010
    This is the first time, in eight years now, that I have registered to talk about a topic. This one is intriguing. It comes down to what we want we want to see, or what we will see. And, yes, I believe we will see more. Whoever had this idea, kudos. This what we should be talking about. I have many ideas about it. None involve the eu, i think. Although I wouldn't know. The eu to me, and I have read some stories, is crap. I really just want George to go back to the roots of it all and write. Not write for money, fame, or KIDS, just write a good story. I grew up with it. Most of us did. Finish it for us right Mr Lucas.
  19. Topher1980 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2010
    And no, I do not believe its done yet
  20. Timstuff Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2008
    star 1
    On the one hand, I'm always down for more Star Wars (well, except for TCW which I was kind of dragged into but ended up loving, but I still haven't seen the pilot movie), however after looking at the last Indiana Jones movie I don't really know if I'd want to go back and see a wrinkly old Luke Skywalker leading the Jedi Council on film, and I cannot see anyone other than Mark Hammil playing Luke. The expectations would be way too high if they were going to continue the story-- I'd dare say just as high, or even higher than with the prequels. It would be like "ZOMG, Luke Skywalker is back!" but then, if it turned out like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, people might burn down the Skywalker Ranch. There's just so much that could go wrong that I'm not sure if it's worth trying. I'd totally be down for a new TV series similar to TCW that continues the story where the ROTJ left off and mines the EU for stories, but if they did 3 more movies I'd be worried that either A) they'll cast new actors who don't live up to the originals or B) watching the original actors reprise their roles will be depressing to watch, because we have to see our childhood heroes when they're old and tired.
  21. BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2006
    star 3
    I have a battered trading card from 1983, it's the final card for the final Return of the Jedi series. It says luke's adventures are over but star wars is not. "Future films in the saga will explore the rise of the evil empire, and the eventual destiny of the galaxy." And really, if we can't have faith in a 27 year old bubble gum card, what CAN we believe in?

    It does feel like there were some definite ideas out there like a 60-ish Luke and other vague stuff but it never seemed like you could get 3 more movies out of it. (I can picture Lucas doing a new extended epilogue for the Jedi 3D release, that would serve also as a promotion for a post-Jedi tv cartoon or something)
  22. Timstuff Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2008
    star 1
    It sounds more like an allusion to the prequels than anything else. And ever since the words "Episode IV" appeared before ANH, I think people knew that prequels were coming.
  23. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    Why do you get extra ghost rewards for turning to the dark side? Obiwan and Yoda were model Jedi citizens all their lives and they only got crusty old death-aged ghosts to get around in for all eternity. Spend a couple of decades massacring people, turn it around at the last minute and bingo, you're mister fresh faced all over again. I'm not sure that encourages good Jedi behaviour.
  24. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    It's both. "Rise of the evil empire" - PT. "Eventual destiny of the galaxy" - ST. That was still the plan in 1983, officially, anyway.
  25. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I figure Obi-Wan and Yoda were content as old men, whereas Anakin would opt for a form that prefigured his iron-lung stint.

    That's about all I got.
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