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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Rebel Alliance is suprisingly clean

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BaronNoir, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Considering what he found out about the Sith in Wild Space - it makes sense for him to see it as much more of a betrayal to leave a Sith in control of the galaxy unopposed.
     
  2. Adrian the Cool

    Adrian the Cool Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2012
    In a book Mace Windu is mentioning there are enough clonetroopers to station one of them on every republican planet and the novel uses the canon number of 1,2 million clones at this time, too, so we would came up with 1,2 million planets in the Republic. Well, if ignoring the fact that the official amount of clonetroopers is more than just ridicilous. By using the more realistic way to treat "a unit" not as single soldier but as one of those groups seen by departing from Coruscant at the end of AOTC there would be ~800 million clonetroopers instead of just 1,2 million at this time and not with 3,2 million but ~1,7 billion clones produced for the GAR on Kamino at all.
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    No clone army numbers discussion, please. Not here, not anywhere.
     
    RC-1991 and Zorrixor like this.
  4. Esg

    Esg Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    1,2 million was the initial order of clones

    They increased troughout the war
     
  5. Darth_Culator

    Darth_Culator Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 10, 2005
    I blame the Jedi. Who knows how Kenobi and the others twisted his mind during the Clone Wars? They could have planted all kinds of insidious ideas while they were preparing to overthrow the Republic. Even after their rebellion was put down, people who had been too close to them were ticking time bombs. I fear the Emperor treated their confederates, like poor deluded Bail, far too mercifully.
     
  6. DarthCane

    DarthCane Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 30, 2002
    Yes, Alderaan was so happy with Imperial rule that it exploded spontaneously and Chandrila was honored enough that its Senator received an honor guard escort of Star Destroyers to a personal meeting with the Emperor during Fete Week.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In The Essential Character Guide I think it states that Mon Mothma and Bail tried to block Palpatine's rise to President, then Emperor, but failed.

    In the RoTS novel it's Padme that tells Bail:

    "You have to vote for him. Tell Mon Mothma to vote for him as well. Be good little senators. And keep on doing all those things we can't talk about."

    In the Han Solo Trilogy, it's after various Imperial massacres that Mon Mothma says that they prove:

    "Palpatine is either insane or totally evil- and therefore must be overthrown for the good of sentients everywhere."

    So- we've got hints that the Rebellion was in the works from the moment Palpatine became Emperor- but it was the massacres that convinced them that it was time.

     
  8. Adrian the Cool

    Adrian the Cool Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2012
    As far as my support for the Alliance to Restore the Republic goes, I also have to admit that the Galactic Empire had no influence on the daily live of most Imperial citizens living in the Core or Colonies.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    And? Two senators can speak for entire planets now? The canonical material is clear.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Well- there was the Ghorman Massacre- Ghorman being in the Colonies. And Palpatine's promoting the perpetrator (Tarkin) to Admiral afterward.
     
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    There were also those lies spread about Raltiir and what allegedly happened to it.
     
  12. DarthCane

    DarthCane Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 30, 2002
    Fixed.
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    You disputed my assertion, I sourced it, and all you feel like posting are little quips. That's not very polite.

    A handful of whiny children on a few worlds does not translate to popular support for the Rebellion, sorry.
     
  14. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2010
    That source, which is hardly the only, and certainly not the most recent, source to speak to this matter, is not entirely unambiguous. There are a number of qualifiers of degree, noting that 'largely' or 'most' or 'rarely' applied to the various cases. Therefore, there was some measure of resistance to the Empire in the Core, there was some level of oppressive and tyrannical response, and there was some pro-Alliance sentiment. How much is not clear, though I would suspect that, according to that source, it would be in the low single-digits percentage wise.

    Of course, if we go back to my earlier calculations...If even say 3% of the Core Worlds were solidly in the Rebel camp that would be 1.25 million planets and 1.7 quadrillion people.

    This is one of the funny things about Star Wars - numbers that are tiny in a proportional sense can be epically massive in an absolute sense.
     
  15. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, but how much does that matter when we're talking about popular support? Having a thousand people support you might well win you an election in Wisconsin, but it wouldn't matter in New York City. I mean it seems very odd for supporters based on a movement on popular sovereignty to suggest a small minority should dictate -- by force -- the course of galactic government.

    Also, "no allies" is rather damning in its specificity, as opposed to terms that use degrees.
     
  16. DarthCane

    DarthCane Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 30, 2002
    Sorry. Some of us Rebels prefer a straight fight to all this Imperial boilerplate.

    As far as sources, we have the films - Episode III showing the early stirrings of the Alliance in the glittering skyscrapers of Coruscant, and Episode IV showing one of the longstanding pillars of Core Worlds culture being blasted into rubble for harboring Rebel sympathizers. Let's also mention that outpouring of celebration on Coruscant following Endor. We also have EU material including the occupation of Ralltir, measures taken to usurp local government control on Corellia and Chandrila (with both being the sites of skirmish actions and Chandrila being a potential target of the DSII), and Imperial meddling in Ralltir's financial system.

    Oh, and New Plympto and Camaas were also Core Worlds. They were certainly welcomed into the New Order with open arms, i.e. stormtroopers' blasters and Star Destroyer turbolasers.

    EDIT: And as far as "no allies" in the Core - it's blasted hard to have allies when the Empire has most of its military deployed in that area. Alderaan and Ralltir were quite exemplary lessons in what the Empire was willing to do to secure the Core.
     
  17. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And if early roleplaying game splatbooks like The Rebel Alliance sourcebook are valid- what about modern splatbooks like The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide?

    That certainly captured the pervasive atmosphere of oppression- the idea that everyone's being watched by COMPNOR- that people are informing on one another just to satisfy grudges- the whole totalitarian feel.
     
  19. johnthejedi24

    johnthejedi24 Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 12, 2004
    What the heck was the Emperor thinking commissioning a bunch of ships with the sole purpose of eradicating non-human life? Sure since they did it on the outer rim and unknown regions they could probably get away with it but if any of that got out to the greater galaxy the uproar among much of the galactic populace would be huge.

    Sure the majority of the Imperial armed forces may agree with some parts of high human culture but I don't think exterminating aliens was part of the manual. What about the thousands of crewmembers of those ships, surely not all would agree with it or blurt something out after a bottle of Lum with friends and family?

    Frankly the Empire under Palpatine disgusts me, its a wonder they didn't collapse sooner if word had been more widespread about some of the empires activities...
     
  20. RC-1991

    RC-1991 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2009
    I wouldn't be surprised if the crews of ships like the Azgoghk were specifically selected for their speciest tendencies. The Imperial Navy was large enough to do so, and Deathtroopers specifically alludes to the Empire psychologically screening its military recruits for such tendencies- Sartoris in that novel was specifically selected for his duty (guarding a prison barge, IIRC) due to his psychotic tendencies.
     
  21. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    That's more like it.

    ROTS - yes, the salon set were certainly keen on their anti-establishment tendencies. It wouldn't surprise me that the likes of Amidala and Mothma had the Jeffersonian view of a good revolution cleansing the palate every now and then. Yet I've already noted that there were Rebel sympathies in the Senate -- but that doesn't translate to popular support.

    ANH - Alderaan wasn't destroyed for being a hotbed of Alliance support. If anything, we know of plenty of Alderaanians who were Loyalists up until that point. Alderaan was Tarkin's folly: destroyed in a fit of pique because a little girl defied him.

    ROTJ - We've since learned that the celebration involved a tiny rebel cell which was quickly silenced. The majority of the Coruscanti population continued to be Loyalists, up through the forcible Rebel occupation of the planet.

    Ralltir - I'll give you that one.

    Corellia - Trickier. It's hard to say whether the takeovers were local initiatives, or orders from the Throne. I suspect the former, given the general Imperial policy of non-interference (alluded in my sources above, and also emphasized in Gamer #5). Yet it's interesting to note that Corellia actually had a great deal of Imperial support into the post-Endor period, and certain of its high officials were sympathetic to the Empire well into the New Republic period as well.

    Chandrila - I'll give you that one too.

    The thing is, though, the incidents mentioned are aberrations rather than the norm. I say that because otherwise the generalizations we have in the source material couldn't have been made. It's not that there weren't subversive movements in the Core--there surely were, it's just that those were so insignificant compared to the mass of support for the Imperial government that even the Rebel leadership virtually wrote off the Core worlds.

    Sure. There's a bit of that too. I'm not a friend of COMPNOR, but I won't deny its presence. I'd suggest though that the omnipresence of COMPNOR was something more perceived than actual -- namely because of the ability of people to inform on others, or for ruffians to join SAGroup to satisfy their stupid youthful grudges. You won't see me defending the likes of them.

    Had the Emperor only known what his servant Pitta was doing, I am sure he would have stopped him. Sadly as we know, the grand admirals were adept at hiding this from His Majesty...
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    So we're dropping the "Raltiir is a lie" take then?

     
  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    You seem to have missed the point of that post :p
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And the point was?
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    To help you out by offering you more unwarranted allegations against the Empire, obviously. Never let it be said that I'm not gallant.