ST The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

Yeah...

• Luke tossing the saber...was this entire scene from TFA to TLJ supposed to be intense and sad or lighthearted and funny? No idea now.
• Poe vs. FO fleet leading to "your momma" joke that fell flat
• Luke asking "where's Han?" and then saying "go away" and going to happily chug milk from an alien cow
• Snoke threatening Rey, Rey resisting, and then him flying the lightsaber around to plop her on the head

and there are more too

 

I'll give you that Although to be honest, I didn't see that as 'gag attempt.' I really just took that as Snoke mocking Rey in that moment. This foolish child thinks she can just casually pull this weapon from me? *Bop* Bad child.

Again, not trying to call you out - and I'm sure you're aware - but that scene does not follow the "where's Han?" line. He asks where Han is and then it immediately cuts to Kylo. It does this because we, as the audience, already know where Han is. We don't need to hear Rey explain to Luke all that has happened. I understand that many folks wanted to see Luke's reaction but, IMO, I really like the immediate cut to Ben. It seems to add meaning to Luke's line to Ben at the end of the film "Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you. Just like your father" as it suggests that Han is figuratively (or literally) with Ben after Luke asks the question. Just something that I appreciate about the cut.

Anyways I won't respond to each point because a lot of this just comes down to taste. But it seems obvious enough that the heavy, dramatic moments in the film are not immediately undercut by pointless humor or quick cracks. I appreciate @Ender_and_Bean for listing out some of the most dramatic parts of the film that are absolutely not followed up with immediate humor.

I respect that you feel that some of the humor in the film was over-played, and while I don't agree for the most part, I understand that it is purely subjective at that point. So it's totally fine to disagree there.

 

Yeah, too much of it just fell flat for me and gave me confusing feelings. I personally don't like that style of subversion-humor as often as it happened in TLJ.

 

The cut to Kylo on that question is good, economical storytelling. We don't need to witness that exposition again. And the look on Luke's face both before that cut, and the clear effect the news has had on him as we cut back to him tells us everything we need to know IMO.

 

Also, before Luke notices R2 on the Falcon, I was under the impression that he was grieving for Han.

 

It’s personal taste of course but I felt most of the pacing and timing of the comic relief hit at Pixar levels of focus and timing. The Pixar team focus groups everything in huge readings and polishes and polishes until the moment hits. That’s one of the reasons I’m so blown away by Johnson overall to be honest. To write the comic relief and the tension and the character arc and the hero’s journey aspects, the psychological considerations, and juggle the amount of characters, and contribute to creature creation, and then bring that all to life as the director without any big setbacks in each of those steps and delivering on time is very impressive to me. It had to give Kennedy a ton of trust in him for his own trilogy effort.

Even Poe using the communications stall moment to make his side feel better and inspired by refusing to cower to Hux’s itntimidation tactics over the air waves was great to me. Showed why Poe is so beloved by his crew and why they will follow him into any battle and why Holdo and Leia like him (beyond his incredible piloting skill) and can see leadership potential if he can add some more tools to his leadership toolkit. He has the natural charm down that makes the young crew like him and want to follow him and that’s very important. It’s the kind of thing that can get someone elected or help them convince others that someone above them isn’t fit for command but to actually lead effectively he needed more and in some ways that scene really sets up both his strength in charisma to his crew and his weakness as someone who will need to grow up a little more to effectively lead others.

 

That's definitely right, I think. The real Luke is always in there, he's just buried deep down. But we do get glimpses in between him rejecting Rey (but really rejecting his own legend). And despite his protestations, until Luke sees Kylo and Rey together and his worst fears are triggered again, he is slowly thawing to Rey and he is training her and also not ending the Jedi. It's only when she leaves that he briefly commits to going through with that act, only to ultimately not be able to go through with it.

 

Poe is great, beloved by his crew, liked by Holdo and Leia, saved the entire Resistance by helping destroy the dreadnaught before it killed them all, destroyed Starkiller Base right before, has amazing and inspirational talents...but still not enough to have Holdo tell him what her plan was.

Also, my point about Luke asking "where's Han?" and then the tone changing to lightheartedness wasn't about the cut to Kylo Ren. That was fine. I just mean, right after that, Luke walks away from the call to duty and goes to drink from the alien cow. Right after being told about Han. It didn't work for me at all. 30 years later and upon hearing about Han's death he acts like that? It wasn't good at all in my opinion. I get that it was probably done to keep the script from staying too dull and boring but it was just insulting to me.

 

Luke's assholishness is his armour at that point. He wants Rey gone. What do you want him to do? Break down and sob for a scene? When we cut back to him, he looks gutpunched. But there is nothing he can do. And given the extreme crisis of faith that's prompted his exile, he's not about to change course because Han is dead.

 

Yes. It's important to note that when we cut back to Rey and Luke; Rey explaining to Luke that 'we need Luke Skywalker back,' Luke is not Mr. Oddball, goofy, crazy Luke. He is very much disheartened, but most importantly, annoyed with this girl. She won't leave him alone. It isn't until we finally get to see Luke alone with the Falcon that we see him break down about Han and the 30+ years of memories that the ship is bringing back to him.

 

He's basically challenging her, expecting her to go. Remember that Luke thinks his course of action is for the best and something that needs to happen. Him being wrong is beside the point in terms of his motivations. And once he gives his line about going to the most unfindable place on the galaxy is him drawing a line there - a line he believes needs to be drawn, because he believes that the best thing for the galaxy is for him not to help. So once we're in the island life montage, I think we've moved on from the need for Luke to act all upset about Han. It's right that we catch that vibe once he sneaks aboard the Falcon.

 

....and now I'd really want to post the post-milkdrinking face gif of Luke .....

 

Also, doesn’t he do the fishing scene first? And isn’t there a cut in time even there from when he gets the fish to when he has presumably went down and picked it up and walked up the hill? I might be misremembering the sequence slightly but I thought it was more a sequence showing his daily routine that ended with the milk scene and involves some cuts in time that suggest it’s been potentially an hour or more after he received the first update?

 

He is a gourmet. He took the aperitif first.

 

The milking comes before the fishing scene. But the milking was always him daring Rey in one sense. He wants her to bugger off so he is being a dick. Interestingly there is a concept of Rey and Luke both taking buckets to the Thala-Siren, so I wonder if there is a cut scene of Rey milking the creatures later to show their bond developing.

 

Yeah, I did. I wanted Luke to be saddened by Han's death. I wanted Luke to care about the galaxy. About his friends and family. And I wanted him to rejoin the fight. But this was a totally different character as we all know...one who gave up and wanted to be alone to die.

 

I agree with this in terms of the whole movie, and all of these examples, but I think the Poe example from the beginning of the movie was the worst for me. Maybe that’s just because it set the tone for the movie, but I think also because SW space battle scenes are generally for me really good. I feel the stakes and the risk and that adds to the accomplishment overall. On paper, when I think about Poe taking on a dreadnought by himself (with a few ships backing him as apparently extra canon sources revealed) that should be a nerve wracking scene. I should see Poe communicating with his helper ships, I should see one or two of those pilots, I should see the intensity of the battle. That moment in TLJ for me just felt like a cartoon. The yo mama joke was bad by itself to me and very off for SW, but that’s definitely a taste thing and I could forgive it. It’s the way that whole setup just doesn’t have drama. Since R1 just came out a year ago, I can’t help but compare it to the dogfighting scenes in that movie and they really don’t feel like they’re in the same franchise.

In terms of ESB, also it just feels different. If Luke had made a yo mama joke to a moff in an AT-AT and then kept it going on and on, before a quick scene of him flying around by himself taking out the AT-ATs during which R2 plays whack-a-mole with a circuit panel, Hoth would feel very very different.

 

I wouldn't call that a "break down." He looked around the Falcon, sat down and then put his head down for 2 seconds before laughing with R2.

 

Team building event: Group milking. Rey smiling to the camera with milk in her face. I am glad that they cut it.

 

Yeah. He's basically saying, "This is my life. This is my routine. If this bothers you then you might want to get back on the ship and leave."

Edit: The Dreadnought scene with the bombers being blown up, Canady scrambling his group to get the fighters out, Paige realizing her crewmade is dead and trying to start the sequence by herself, falling and hurting herself, kicking the the stair to try and get it to fall, Canady turning the huge canons on the Raddus, and the slow motion sequence without anything but music and sound effects of Canady yelling "Fire" and the remote falling, being caught, and Paige holding Rose's necklace as she takes out the Dreadnought with Canady on it lacked drama?!

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

I thought that sequence was very dramatic the moment the stalling ended and the fight truly began.

 

Pretty sure milk chugging is right after saying "I'm not gonna walk out with a laser sword...go away". Then the fishing sequence comes after

 

Yeah, I would have dialled down the humour with Poe and Hux one notch, but once the scene escalates, it really escalates, and I thought the stakes and drama there were excellent as the plan fell apart and the Resistance ships came under fire.

 

Yeah, once the bombers are brought in there is absolutely nothing humorous about the scene. It is powerful, and, quite sad actually. Paige's sequence always gets me.

I really don't mind the Poe/Hux humor too much. I would have taken out one 'Still holding...' but aside from that it was pretty funny, and it's over quick enough.

 

Well, let's bring it back to TESB (the topic of this thread) then. Luke is being standoffish for his own reasons. He doesn't know who Rey is and to him she's just a messenger. He's clearly much softer with R2 and Chewie than he is her. He's made up his mind for why he's doing this and he's been out here for years. To think he would just grab the saber and run on the ship and be exactly like he was as a twenty year old after he's lived decades of life around other people, and experienced new philosophies related to the Force like he did the Lew'el way with the Tide, truly did deserve his "What did you think was going to happen here?" He's meant to feel like an old man in this. Like his fighting days are behind him. The US military doesn't just go grab old retired Navy Seals with Purple Hearts and tell them as senior citizens it's time to get back into this either. At a certain point people can retire and choose to live out their lives at the place of their choosing until they die.

But back to TESB... It's not like Yoda is exactly like how he was in episodes I, II or III either. His initial entrance to Luke and the audience is meant to scare ("Like we're being watched!") and he's obviously very kooky and silly initially. Luke's patience is challenged initially, along with the audience, just as Rey's is. To anyone who's new to the saga their interactions with this legendary Jedi master are not what they expected. Just as Yoda's aren't. Their reasoning for being these ways and their methods to those ends differ but both Jedi masters subvert the initial expectations both for people who are new to them entirely and who have their own ideas of how old Jedi masters should behave, and subvert even more so to those who aren't new to them and are remembering them as the younger versions of them exclusively.





It takes longer for Luke to get to how we remember him because he's dealing with post-trauma, and guilt and given a crisis of faith arc related to issues that have impacted his entire family and their time as Jedi. He's living closer to the Lew'el way of life we know he lived prior to TLJ in the new canon book, "The Legends of Luke Skywalker" but he eventually becomes more like his old self in the end once he's worked though that.