ST The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

I actually agree that RJ directed and wrote VIII in a way that felt more like IX. The meal was a touch too satisfying.

But to counter that I will say that my sister, a casual fan, asked me a few minutes after we left the theater "are there 2 more"? When I said no, she was disappointed, because she feels like TLJ cracked open the SW world and she's hungry for more. While she enjoyed TFA a lot, she did NOT feel that way. In fact she now feels like TFA is more of a prequel and TLJ feels like the real new beginning of this iteration of Star Wars.

I don't think the TLJ "will be" seen as rivaling the original Star Wars films. It already is. It's got phenomenal critical reception.

It's an extremely well done film. Arguably the best executed SW film since 1980. And I think someone bold could make a case for it rivaling even the first two films. It's that good. And I say this as someone who enjoys, from a purely escapist perspective, other SW films more.

I'm not remotely concerned about TLJ's future reception. You can't keep a great film down.

 

I am not comparing the quality of TLJ to ESB both movies were not as profitable and audiences liked it less that the movie that came before it. TLJ is different than ESB and that is why I love it. You have nothing to look forward to because you are looking backwards which is fine by me. TLJ did not rehash ESB which is a good thing. TLJ raises many bigger questions than ESB by the way like, How will the resistance survive? Will Kylo change the first order and the Sith Order? Will Rey start looking for new Jedi? How will she change the Jedi Order? What does the balance between Kylo and Rey mean to their future? Will both continue to gain strength together? Will Poe be able to lead the resistance in Leia’s absence? Will FInn and Rose build a relationship or is he in love with Rey? Finn might still be a Jedi, it is a small chance but he did touch the Jedi books.( I would love for there to be a time jump and the next movie starts with Rey and Finn infiltrating a First Order base or ship. It is a long shot I know.) What will be Luke’s influence on Rey? So yes, TLJ was not without purpose like you may believe. ESB ended on a personal cliffhanger but TJL was a universal cliffhanger.

 

Honestly I feel somewhat as well that TLJ does make a rod for its own back in a similar kind of way to ROTS. When you have a film that includes more obvious highpoints the relative weaknesses tend to stand out that much more if you ask me.

My viewing was really much ho hum early on to thinking actually this has become interesting around the Kylo/Rey section to then thinking the film welched on its own concept rather and included a decent but less interesting and rather rushed ending.

 

That's not quite true.... see the ESB reception thread. I was 13 at the time. There were a significant number of upset fans. Of course, many also loved it.

 

I never said it will be in the same light. I said people will SEE IT IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT. Meaning that the negativity will be less harsh but I am not saying it would all go away. You see people’s rankings of these movies? Some people have ESB and ANH dead last or in the middle of the pack. Why is that? People’s opinions change and time no doubt influences that. TFA the reception was mostly positive but look at it right before TLJ came out. One word rehash!!! It also was the worst Star Wars movie then TLJ came out. Now not only are the prequels magically better TFA is a masterpiece. Truth it love it or hate TLJ has a lot more to discuss than any Star Wars movie I ever seen and that is good because it keeps the franchise relevant.

 

Solid post. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Issues like Luke not being what some want and issues related to the power creep of this sequel in comparison to one 40 years old won’t matter as much in the future as whether the saga works for someone just popping in VII-IX as their entry into Star Wars. In that regard the hero’s journey of the mind for Luke will age well because it works structurally as a redemption story for people less invested in what they wanted the character to be, or how it impacts ROTJ or life between the films, and just sees him as their new Obi-Wan/Yoda in this saga and has a basic idea of who he is as a household name.

That’s the strength over this sequel trilogy over the prequels overall. They function better as entryway points to Star Wars and as standalone films because they’re better made, structured and acted and utilize the same timeless structural elements of the classics while changing things just enough.

That’s what frustrates many hard core fans the most but for critics and just general perception of the the films as films... that other stuff is far from a deal breaker so they judge it more on whether it passes the test as an exciting and adventurous war epic with characters they like and villains they’re conflicted about and in those areas the ST excels.

 

Honestly, and this isn't meant to be a knock, but I really don't think the recollections of someone who was 10 at the time can be indicative of the overall feelings of the masses towards the film. You can certainly give your own feelings on it, as I did as well. You can also probably reasonably attest to the feelings of your family or the kids on your playground, but no 10 year old in 1980 was attuned enough to understand how society as a whole was looking at ESB.

Given my age at the time, I can only go with what I can find online and what I've seen on here and in other places, from sources like newspaper reviews and Starlog was that it was a somewhat divisive movie. The recorded history and the box office figures do not jive with those saying that ESB was "immediately as loved as the first and universally praised."

As with every Star Wars movie since, people had built up their expectations for 3 years, and many of those expectations weren't met. There were reviews that called it racist and sexist for only including 2 women with speaking parts and one person of color. There were those that complained the pacing was off. They didn't like that the heroes were split up from each other the whole time. They didn't like the idea of Yoda as a supreme Jedi Master. The list goes on.

This is also going to happen for every Star Wars movie made from here on out. It is what it is.

 

I was a Starlog subscriber and I remember it pretty vividly. But it wasn't as vicious then as now p, generally. No social medi for one thing. No internet polls for another.

 

You are right, and it is a great point that the talk of the reception of ESB being lukewarm on initial release predates the sequel trilogy release. It even predates the prequels release. It's revisionist for those that dislike the new movies to somehow accuse those that do like them of propping them up by creating a false narrative against ESB.

I've just always taken this as fact.

There were stories for years of how Lucas disagreed with many of the directorial decisions from Kirschner. He felt it didn't have the fun and magic of the first movie. He felt it was too far away from his personal vision. So, while he didn't choose to direct ROTJ, he instead hired Marquand who he felt he could control more easily and use as a facilitator to bring his vision of the trilogies closing act to screen. There have been anecdotal stories as well of Lucas disappointment with ESB from a marketing standpoint as well. That the movie didn't play as well to kids which not only hurt the box office, but could compromise the ability to sell toys. It's only my guess, but I'd imagine that played a part in the Ewoks appearance in ROTJ rather than a more menacing creature.

 

I was 8 years old in 1980 and the opposite happened compared to TLJ. ESB appealed to what then became the diehard fans as it cemented them for life (me and my middle brother). Where ESB did not appeal to the casual fan that loved ANH in 1977 as they sort of rolled their eyes at Darth Vader possibly being Luke's dad and did not like the cliffhanger ending (my oldest brother). What I have noticed among friend/family/co-workers with TLJ is that the casual fans like it and the diehards like me didn't like it.

 

The ST rather than a "jumping on" point seems much more obviously linked to the OT to me featuring many more of the same characters and a more similar situation. That will I suspect mean that its likely to remain more watched that the prequels which are far easier to dismiss if you dislike them, the ST's faults are also less glaring than the PT for me.

As far as Luke goes that link does I think mean he's always likely to be judged relative to the OT, I mean without that setup the character really wouldn't make much sense. Beyond that though my issues are more than I think the way the characters handled simply isn't ideal for TLJ by itself. His lack of wisdom to pass onto Rey for example I think holds back her character and combined eith the joking elements early on also undermines the twist with Kylo for me.

 

But, how do you know that TLJ isn't now cementing a new generation of die hard fans who are currently 8 years old like you were in 1980? Honestly, there is no way for any of us to know that for certain at this moment. Time will tell on that matter.

Again, we are looking at this through older, more jaded eyes, talking to people in our peer group who share similar experiences from our own childhood and generation. We cannot speak for these younger viewers growing up with these movies. We are not in their peer group. Sadly, we are becoming more irrelevant in this discussion year by year.

While I can't say for sure, if I had to venture a wager, I'd say that this movie likely will cement a new generation of fans the way ESB did for us. I also think it will travel a similar arc for that generation. Some of them won't get it now. They'll say they prefer TFA, but they'll revisit it in their teenage years and the storylines of generational strife and having to recover from the sins of the past generation will resonate for them in their formative teenage and early adulthood years. Later, they will say it's their favorite the way we now say ESB is our favorite instead of ROTJ or ANH which we loved as kids. This new generation simply will not look on ANH or ESB with the reverence we've placed on them. Those are not movies giving voice to their childhood and adolescence. This trilogy is their moment.

 

Comparing ESB and TLJ is a mistake. I get why we should compare them, but they are simply different movies.

Empire's spot atop the Star Wars universe is safe

 

Yes, they are different movies. But both subverted expectations really reframed the trilogy. Their substance is different, but they are functionally similar. Which is a good thing.

 

I don't disagree with you that this Trilogy is cementing younger fans the same way it did to us in 1977. But Disney cannot have it both ways, as if they want to move on and stop hearing the OT fans whining towards every movie, then stop making every Disney movie marketed towards OT fans!

Think about it, we've had 4 movies so far which were all geared for OT fans: Episode 7 with the return of Han, Rogue One and the plans for the Death Star, Episode 8 and the return of Luke, and now the Han Solo movie and we get the younger Han Solo's backstory. Disney could have easily had Luke, Leia and Han in cameos roles in Episode 7 just to get the nostalgia audience back and then moved on to new characters and new stories. I would have no problem passing the torch to younger fans with the franchise, but they won't let us pass the torch because each movie relies on an OT character to sell it!

 

I think the new generation will have way too much other entertainment as well as more Star Wars movie in the meantime to revisit one particular movie in their teen years or obsess about it. In ten years, everyone could be going gaga over a shiny new DC-universe instead of anything else. Neither Star Wars nor anything else will have a fandom like in the 80s anymore.

 

Star Wars fandom is the biggest and strongest it's ever been right now. I wear lots (lots!) of Star Wars t-shirts and almost always get compliments about them.

 

I was talking about young kids and teens. They have a much different consumer approach than back in the day. Today it is "yay, Star Wars is the coolest thing ever" and in two months it`s something else. They are bombarded with way too much cool stuff for it not to be the case. An 8 year old loving TLJ will have so much grabbing their attention between now and episode 9 and I`m not talking Solo, the movie. Sure, when the marketing hype is starting up again, they will get invested again but that is more ebb and flow.

I have seen kids who were Harry Potter-fanatics and all swept up in the hype when the movies came out, they were obsessed with it, discussing every little thing. But a mere few years later, that has given way to "oh, it was neat".

 

Empire subverted expectations by wowing and astounding us, not by undoing what came before it.

TLJ subverts expectations but has absolutely nothing to show for it in return. It undoes the past just for the sake of undoing it, offering nothing new or interesting in it's place. All while being a shameless remake in it's own right.

 

Are you saying that TLJ’s overall reception is similar to that of TESB given all the things equal in terms of media?

TESB did not have the burden of 35 years of legacy imbued with EU and comic versions of beloved characters and their heroics. Beyond the middle act status of each I fail to see any meaningful comparison in terms of media driven reception.

Although, kudos to you for providing some primary source material, but I’m not sure that’s anything definitive.

Also, TESB was the natural antithesis to ANH. That is, the nature of the narrative is supposed to leave the audience feeling negative. The bad guys won in almost every instance. I’m not even sure that was the purpose of TLJ. The criticism stems from the narrative of one major legacy character.

Critics hated STAR WARS, yet it became a cultural phenomenon. Today, Critics rate high and the audience divides mostly due to preconceived notions of what legacy characters arcs should be from years of counter EU narrative.

Speaking from my 10-13 year old perspective (which is exactly the age for which these films were made), when these films came out, and trying to answer the call of the OP, there was no real naysaying in my immediate circle until ROTJ and then the coulda, woulda, shoulda started to get thrown around. Of course, ROTJ started to look a bit juvenile even for a 14 year old.

Every single one of my friends were enthralled with the bounty hunters from TESB. I got the Falcon for Christmas that year. I remember being bummed leaving the Quo Vadis theater in 1980 after my third viewing of Empire thinking I had three long years for the sequel. I remember liking, but being underwhelmed by the sequel three years later.

@jaqen what are you hoping to demonstrate with this comparison thread?

Edit: Question: Do today’s audiences find TESB pacing slow and the special effects distractingly unrealistic and trite.

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I was 13 going on 14 when TESB first came out. The two movies evoked *enormously* different reactions from me.

I left Episode V feeling that the SW universe had gotten bigger, darker, more mysterious and dangerous. It was one of the first movies to "scare" (for lack of a better word) me in a way I couldn't immediately explain. Vader came across as menacing, dangerous, and by the end of it, more interesting than ever before.

TLJ? Eh. Daisy Sue, Rylo What's-his-name? I guess they'll have a "laser sword" fight in the next one. Maybe. He'll turn or die. Maybe. No one cares.

No one.

 

Hoping to demonstrate? What do you mean?

 

Good grief, Disney is the most successful entertainment company in history. They're in the business of selling. Of course they don't want to drop OT fans.

They're appealing to a broad, multi-generational audience, because they know that's Star Wars' strength; appealing to the masses, across all boundaries.

It's not OT fans or newbie fans, it's OT fans AND newbie fans. As I've been saying for years now, Disney-Lucasfilm will have their cake and eat it too.

But appealing to old fans doesn't mean they're beholden to them. TLJ has proven that.

 

Right. People were upset about ESB because the good guys didn't kick @$$ and there was a cliffhanger. Both of those things are commonplace in films now. They were never upset about the quality of the story or the characters. They just didn't like the bad guys "winning" and didn't like things ending in such an unsettled state, especially with the next movie 3 years away.

Comparing those complaints to the complaints people have about TLJ is comparing apples to kumquats.