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Discussion The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by jaqen, Dec 26, 2017.

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  1. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    How do you differentiate "poorly handled" from "still being revealed"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  2. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Spot on. Another difference I don't see mentioned is that ESB widened the characters and the scale of the universe. People left and started to imagine what was coming next as we learn of the Emperor, Lando, Boba Fett. Introducing that there was someone controlling Vader was a revelation in itself that widened the imagination. And of course several unique new vehicles and droids. TLJ doesn't leave you feeling that way one bit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  3. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Well we can only judge on what we have seen so far

    Hopefully JJ will correct things in Episode 9, but as far as RJ's story goes Rey's family were no-one and her abilities came out of nowhere in an attempt to balance the force due to Kylo Ren embracing the dark side of the force.

    I have no doubt that if there was something special about Rey to reveal that RJ would have done it and most probably ruined it just like he ruined pretty much every carryover story arc from TFA.

    I suspect that if JJ puts something in about Rey's lineage in the final movie that it will most probably be something that is put in at the last second and wasn't originally planned much like Lucas did when he put the Leia being Luke's sister twist into ROTJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  4. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Oh, that's what you consider "poorly handled"? That Rey wasn't related to some powerful lineage?
     
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I'm not sure TESB is comparable in substance. TLJ and TESB did go against expectations. But TESB didn't radically alter an existing character with a previous arc like TLJ with Luke and scuttle open questions left from the previous film.
     
  6. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I agree. I think its a mistake to compare TESB and TLJ just cause they are middle movies. Besides the themes that were copied from TESB the similarity ends there.
     
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  7. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Yes just because they both have walkers, jedi training(or lack thereof), etc, those are just surface similarities.
    It's too bad there wasn't some sort of compuserve or networking messaging where fans could communicate and share their feelings back in 1980. I would love to see those.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  8. superstardestroyer-1

    superstardestroyer-1 Jedi Master star 1

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    May 20, 2002
    What's "laughable" is that you are comparing the idea of bullseyeing a womp rat to the stress that would have been involved in taking down the Death Star. With turbolasers and tie fighters trying to kill you and the Death Star preparing to destroy a planet. This is life or death vs. messing around on the farm. If we are really going to try to put this fantasy story in real world terms, it would be like putting a kid that flew a crop duster on his parents farm in a plane and in the middle of a WWII battle with no training.

    Again, it's "rose colored glasses" in full effect from those that are willing to overlook the stretches in realism from the OT, but who have no ability to suspend disbelief for the ST.

    Your idea of Kenobi communicating him to train is conjecture and not backed up by the canon stories I've read. The comics have explored this time period the most and while Luke has faced a number of challenges and battles (including a fight against Darth Vader), he hasn't had much in the way of Jedi training. He's read Ben Kenobi's journal, but that's about it.

    Now, before you say you don't recognize that as Canon, I'll just say that you took it to speculation on his training and Lucasfilm canon trumps your head canon.

    And, as for Vader being 45 and Luke 23, totally irrelevant. The prequels easily establish that age means nothing in a lightsaber battle. The ability to use the force and training trumps youth every time. Dooku easily bested Anakin in AOTC even though he was elderly. And, an even more elderly Yoda then had Dooku on his heels until he created a distraction and retreated.
     
  9. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    I read through the first page, looked at the links and here's my take away. Before the World Wide Web we relied heavily on the opinions of Critics. What we have is a bunch of critics and self proclaimed voices for audiences and the people who were angry enough to write letters to magazines talking about how the film was getting mixed reviews or they hated it. If it's anything like it is now, critics do not usually accurately represent the feelings of the viewing audience. A simple look on Rotten Tomatoes will show you that. As far as I can remember it's always been the case that critics can hate on a movie but the crowd can love it and vice versa. It's why we have cult classics, critics pan the movie the the people who saw it loved it.
     
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  10. superstardestroyer-1

    superstardestroyer-1 Jedi Master star 1

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    May 20, 2002
    And, speaking of Luke's training relative to his ability to duel with Vader in ESB, we've never gotten a definitive concrete explanation of the timeline of ESB from any official source. The movie presents Luke's training as seemingly much longer than Han and Leia's breathless escape from the Empire and arrival at Bespin. Best I could find online is that Pablo Hidalgo has said that both storylines span "about a month".

    We know Anakin had roughly 13 years of training between Episode I and III in the Jedi arts and then nearly 20 years of training as a Sith afterwards. So again, if we are simply trying to place logic on this, there should have been no way that Luke would have been able to compete with Vader in a duel at that point even after a month of training with Yoda on Dagobah.

    And, when framed this way, knowing that Luke truly only had roughly 1 month of training with Yoda and about a day with Obi-Wan on the Falcon, how are we somehow upset with Rey's lack of formal training? If anything, it's the prequels that cause a problem here. There is nothing in the OT and ST that indicate one needs a lengthy training to be proficient in using the force at a high level. The PT and Clone Wars cartoon set that precedence. In fact, the OT and ST are well aligned in how they've presented this.
     
  11. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Luke WASN'T able to compete with Vader. Vader toys with him for most of the fight, pointedly only fighting with one hand. Vader is barely trying. He knows he doesn't want to hurt him.

    It is only later, after the carbonite freeze fails and Luke gets a lucky shot in that Vader actually starts to REALLY fight, and Luke is clearly overwhelmed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  12. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    In fact, Vader handily disarms him moments into the duel and slows his overhand attack when Luke dives down the steps. That's the first sign of Luke being severely outclassed and that his opponent clearly had other plans. Had he been entirely useless to Vader, he would have been dead in moments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  13. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 16, 2015
    You're trying to dumb my argument down to "you're not happy that Rey isn't who you hoped she would be", which is not even close to the point I was trying to make.

    By poorly handled I mean that Rey is a nobody who just magically attained significant force powers overnight, especially when in previous movies it established that it took many years of training to acquire those skills. RJ tried to explain it by saying it was the force trying to balance out for Kylo Ren's rise in the darkside which I personally found to be completely implausible.

    People gave Rey's force abilities a free pass in TFA because she was one of many mystery boxes that JJ left and her story was essentially left open for Rian Johnson to come up with something plausible to explain it. Unfortunately rather than coming up with something satisfying regarding Rey's history that would make it all make sense, we get dished up with the laughable explanation along the lines of Rey was a nobody who just magically became a jedi overnight because the force wanted to balance of Kylo's rise in the dark side.

    My point about her lineage was directed at your comment hinting that it might still be revealed, I just meant that if something is revealed in 9 that it will most probably be JJ trying to correct things rather than being something that was planned at the start.
     
  14. LastJediKnight

    LastJediKnight Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Which uniquely happens to coincide with how you might want it if you wanted to turn Star Wars into a Soulless Trilogy Machine.

    Need a new trilogy? Create whatever for Villain X, then sprinkle some Force Dust on a SJW char-type of the day, and off we gooooo. It works even better if we can 'get beyond those pesky Skywalkers'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  15. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    *sees a woman main character* what is this social justice warrior agenda??
     
  16. EHT

    EHT New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Dial back the bashing and the “SJW” commentary.
     
  17. Eternal_Jedi

    Eternal_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2001
    I'm curious if that "about a month" time frame is something that was settled on after the fact, or if that was determined by Lucas during production of the film. Because in my mind, the intent at the time ESB was made is what's important here.

    If I'm simply going on what the movie presents (without getting into traveling at sub-light speed or how long it might take Luke to learn what Yoda is teaching him), I've never felt like the events in the film took more than a few days. It certainly never felt anywhere close to a month to me.

    A day with Obi-Wan on the Falcon? Try about five or ten minutes. :) Han tells everyone to go into the back and get strapped in so he can jump to light speed, and then in the next scene on the Falcon he walks into the back and tells Obi-Wan and Luke that they can forget about their troubles with those imperial ships. Unless Han sat in the cockpit (without speaking to anyone) for several hours after making the jump to light speed, the line only really makes sense if it's a few minutes after making the jump. And the scene ends with "looks like we're coming up on Alderaan" so I'd say that Luke and Obi-Wan spent all of about 15 minutes on the Falcon before it got picked up by the Death Star's tractor beam.

    I haven't watched much of CW, but there's nothing in the PT that really indicates that a lengthy training period is necessary either. Sure, the Jedi spend years "in training" -- but what if we're just assuming that all of this time is spent learning to use Force "powers?" Maybe using the Force to lift or pull objects or influence minds comes easily, but the focus of the training is more philosophical and spiritual. Perhaps the Jedi are trained from a very young age so that they can be taught the judgement and self-discipline necessary to use their powers responsibly.
     
  18. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016
    I actually find the reactions and criticism more akin to ROTJ.
     
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  19. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 25, 2015
    Well, we have no idea how long they were training on the Falcon, but it wasn't a super long time. Luke also didn't use many force powers in the first movie. He basically used the force vaguely to shoot at the Death Star a few times, and then used it for the final shot. He's certainly not doing anything that would be considered "Jedi" like. By the time we see him in Empire, the assumption is that he has been practicing off-screen. Now, was he practicing by himself? Did Obi-Wan help him? That is never really specified.


    I would argue that if Luke had instantly attained force powers and started pulling off the Jedi mind trick while on the Death Star, or something similar, the movie would have just seemed silly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  20. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Um I created this thread, and it wasn't because of "walkers" and "Jedi training".
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  21. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    All of this is negated by the fact that Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke and basically kicked his butt, with one or two brief moments from Luke that were easily countered.

    Rey just straight up beats Kylo with no training. Admittedly, he got shot by Chewbacca, so there's some excuse, but it really isn't the same as what happened with Luke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  22. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    So we're back to my original point.

    TLJ begins to offer conjecture about Rey's power, but it doesn't even pretend to definitively answer the question. Which is why it's the middle chapter (something that a lot of people around here seem wholly unaware of). What TLJ does is still very much present a world where Rey is unusual; she knows it, Kylo knows it and both Snoke and Luke, two masters of great power, are still quite amazed at her Force power. TLJ does not drop the ball on Rey being special; it acknowledges it without expanding on it. Much as TESB drops "no, there is another" but doesn't spend it's time fleshing that out. Snoke offers that light rises to meet the darkness, but we don't even get the chance to learn what that means. Is there more to the story? We don't know yet.

    JJ further expanding on Rey's awakening, if he does, isn't automatically him "cleaning up a mess". Why do so many of you jump to these kinds of conclusions in a serialized, continuing story?

    RJ didn't work on TLJ in a vacuum, and neither did JJ in TFA. JJ isn't remotely unaware of the direction RJ took with the story he left behind. They worked concurrently.

    Is it so implausible to you that CT, and now JJ, wanted threads left in place for the next chapter? That perhaps these people might have wanted to leave something for IX to explore?

    Can you imagine if Empire had another half hour attached to it to reveal the "other" and explored the Luke/Vader relationship?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  23. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    I never, not once, got the impression from TESB that ghost Obi-Wan was off training Luke between ANH and TESB, that Luke was undergoing any training. Luke looks positively shocked to see Ben standing before him in corporal form, informing him that it's time to go get trained by another master.

    In fact that, to me, is a common thread throughout the entire OT. Luke is naturally gifted, but sucks at committing to training. He had very, very little training in the OT. It's been a year between TESB and ROTJ and Luke is only now showing up to see Yoda again and complete his training. And what does Yoda tell him? "No more training do you require".

    Rey's awakening is unlike anything we've seen. But it doesn't mean that Luke was portrayed realistically either.

    Also later material, including the PT, expands how the Force manifests in sensitive people. Anakin's reflexes and intelligence are Force related. And so are his children. Luke's talents in ANH, including his talent for flying, are Force related. Just as Leia's ability to resist Vader's interrogation and her ability to fly the speeder bike without any training. All of it is The Force now.
     
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  24. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 25, 2015
    Are you really trying to compare a one-line setup to a plot reveal in the next movie to being 2 films into the new trilogy and still having no real understanding as to any of the mysticism of the supposed main character?

    I get it. She's the "chosen one" for whatever reason. That CAN be interesting, if there is an interesting story behind it. TFA set up several interesting ideas for what was going on. TLJ pretty much ignored all of them. Will we get the actual story in movie 9? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

    It's one thing to hold out mysteries that are going to be answered in future films. But we've already seen with several of the other TFA mysteries that they are more than willing to just let them die without ever answering them. So forgive me if I really doubt that anything will actually be answered.
     
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  25. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    OK.

    I was in the middle of typing up a rebuttal but then it hit me that this is the thread I created, and all of this is wildly off topic.

    Do you have any thoughts on the reception of TLJ vs TESB during it's original release?
     
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