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Discussion The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by jaqen, Dec 26, 2017.

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  1. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    This!!!
     
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  2. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    Reception? With no internet or other forms of social media in 1980 it is really hard to compare. All you got was Siskel and Ebert on TV and your local film critics. Maybe Leonard Maltin. Hardly any kind of national cross-section the way you can today. But in terms of driving interest for the next movie it is polar opposites. After Empire, people were practically clawing through the walls waiting for ROTJ. Talking to my friends after seeing TLJ, I've yet to talk to anyone who is completely dying to know what happens next, even among those that liked the film.
     
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  3. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    TESB ends on one of the biggest cliffhangers in the history of cinema.

    Thankfully RJ was smart enough to not even try and replicate that moment. Though he could've done a hook if he ended the film with Rey deciding whether or not to join Kylo. Cheap trick, but it would've worked.

    I've said before that one of the "flaws" of TLJ is that it's too satisfying. While it leaves a lot of room for JJ to go in any number of directions, it doesn't beg you to run off and find out what happens next. It felt, in key ways, like an episode IX itself. You could literally end here and pick up 20 years from now with the next episode and nothing too pressing would've been left over.
     
  4. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    That also has to do with most of the characters feeling pretty uninteresting and inconsequential but I doubt many will agree with that.
     
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  5. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    I left TLJ more interested in Rey, Kylo and Poe far more than I did at the close of TFA. So nope, not joining that bandwagon.
     
  6. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Thanks for proving my earlier point.
     
  7. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    One thing I find interesting is that people are desperately trying to find anything to tie this movie to ESB in the hope that it makes the movie appear better than it actually was.

    Yes it's a middle trilogy movie, but let's not forget that AOTC was as well.

    Once the new shiny new toy effect wears off of this movie and the blinders come off people will gradually come to the conclusion that TLJ is a middle of the road SW movie.
     
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  8. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Just labeling a character a "SJW" is lazy. Make your case why her character is problematic.
     
  9. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Why are you maintaining this pointless attempt to try and compare ESB and TLJ ? Aside from being middle trilogy movies there is nothing really to compare, it's interesting that you're trying to link ESB with this movie rather than AOTC.

    As to your other point here is a quote from Rian himself

    "The perception of these films is that they’re all planned out on a secret sheet of paper in advance, but that’s just not the case," Johnson tells Empire magazine. "I wasn’t given an outline of where it goes or even a list of things to hit. It really was just, ‘Okay, what’s next?’”

    He had complete create control over the movie and characters to take it where ever he wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  10. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    If you have no interest in the very concept of my thread, then why are you in it?

    If you'd like to have a debate about TLJ's reception vs AOTC, create your own thread.

    Now do you have anything further to offer that's actually on topic?
     
  11. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    I came here to try and find out what the actual link was that you were trying to make between both movies aside from them both being mid trilogy movies.

    Now from what i have see so far it seems like ESB is being used as a reference point solely to try and make TLJ seem better than it actually was.
     
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  12. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Nice conclusion you've leapt to.

    Still off topic.

    Were you alive, and old enough, to experience the reception of TESB? And if so, how do you compare it with the reception of TLJ?
     
  13. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    It's hard to base any conclusions from what you post because you seem to contradict yourself by constantly moving the goal posts to suit your argument.

    You just posted this

    "RJ didn't work on TLJ in a vacuum, and neither did JJ in TFA. JJ isn't remotely unaware of the direction RJ took with the story he left behind. They worked concurrently.

    Is it so implausible to you that CT, and now JJ, wanted threads left in place for the next chapter? That perhaps these people might have wanted to leave something for IX to explore?"


    Yet in another thread you're talking about how RJ is wanting to move away from the Skywalker story and have posted this article which contains the following.

    "That also suggests that Abrams knows who Rey's parents are. But when filmmaker Rian Johnson decided to (more-or-less) reveal Rey's parentage in The Last Jedi, he said that no one — not Abrams, nor producer Kathleen Kennedy, nor anyone else at Lucasfilm — told him who they were supposed to be.

    "I know that they had been thinking about different things, you know," Johnson told BuzzFeed News in an interview on The Last Jedi's opening day. "But I was never given a card with 'This is the answer' written on it and slid over to me. It was presented to me as something that was still open... There was nothing like 'We need this to happen.' There was none of that."


    So Johnson decided to make the choice that, he said, "had the most dramatic impact, I thought, for this film": Rey's parents were "nobodies."

     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  14. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    So you don't have any first hand knowledge to offer on the topic at hand?

    Am I correct?
     
  15. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    AOTC is the weakest film in the saga for me. I just find it uninteresting. TLJ has more emotional weight, beautiful cinematography, solid performances - especially from Mark, and an interesting balance of lightness and darkness.
     
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  16. relapse5127

    relapse5127 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    I agree that AOTC is the weakest film in the saga, much the same as ESB is the best.

    TLJ is undoubtedly better than AOTC, but is also not even remotely close to being as great as ESB. Which is why, outside of them being middle of the trilogy movies, I do not see any other real basis for comparison between ESB and TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  17. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    LOL! Right, just like my flaw on my yearly performance report is that I work too hard.
     
  18. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Wonderful.

    Now do you have anything to add on the topic?
     
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  19. Darth Bridge 167

    Darth Bridge 167 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2017
    I don't think you need to have a movie end on a cliffhanger to drive interest in the next movie, as I think present day movies have gotten caught up in episodic TV lately. A good narrative, and good character arcs should drive interest for the next movie, and that is sort of my beef with TLJ. TLJ just kind of leaves things at a standstill and Episode 9 can be looked at as a reboot with the story and the characters in a certain context too.

    Just think of the PT, and how there was huge interest for each movie, despite the fact that we knew exactly what was going to happen (in terms of where everything is at in Episode IV). But Lucas drove interest through the narrative: How did Darth Vader come to be? How did the Empire take over? What happened to the Jedi? I honestly don't know what they are going to do for Episode 9 and frankly I just don't really care until 2019. SW movies in the past always left us wanting more from the story and characters, as that wait between movies felt so long almost like when you're a kid and you are waiting for Christmas morning. At this point, call me when the first Teaser is released for Episode 9....
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  20. superstardestroyer-1

    superstardestroyer-1 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Uhhhh, Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey either. "you need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force."

    So, you had Kylo, injured, trying to get her to join him (both times).

    How again, is this an issue?
     
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  21. BadAcrobat

    BadAcrobat Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Can you imagine the fume. Fanboy theorists and 'real' SW fans would have had a meltdown. Vader - Luke's Father?? WTF. Burning my shirts, ruined my childhood before its even begun....I'm so glad there was no internet or social media in 1980!
     
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  22. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I'll take "false equivalencies" for 500, Alex.
     
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  23. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Wait, no. Can't let you get away with that one.

    There are NUMEROUS scenes in ESB, from the opening crawl of the movie, where Vader is searching for Luke to where you know, by the time they meet up on Bespin, that Vader is trying to capture Luke. It's his stated goal many times during the movie.

    In TFA, it's much less clear. Sure, Kylo captures Rey early on to mine information from her, but he has no idea he's going to fight her later on in the movie.

    In fact, the only reason why he posits the question to her is because she's competitive with him in a lightsaber duel. Not because he was holding back, but because she was nearly besting him. And then she bests him.

    Also, Vader was holding back AND he beat Luke. Kylo's loss to Rey causes him shame, and is more excused by Chewie blasting him earlier.

    There's no evidence to suggest that Kylo was trying not to physically beat and best Rey in that duel. He wasn't holding back. Weakened, maybe, but he was clearly beaten by Rey.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  24. superstardestroyer-1

    superstardestroyer-1 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Totally disagree.

    Did you forget that during TFA, Snoke tells Ren to "bring...her...to...me" (or something to that effect).

    The only context we are provided in the movie was instructions from Kylo's master to bring her to him. That's it. Anything else is conjecture. Had Kylo killed her, I would assume Snoke would have been mad. Kylo was CLEARLY trying to seduce her, not kill her. then, she got the upper hand and he wasn't ready for it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  25. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    "If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

    Both the education of Luke and Anakin pretty well justifies what we see on-screen. Luke kinda sucks with a lightsaber in ESB (though clearly picked up a few things to take on the Wampa), and is better in ROTJ. At least, good enough to compete with a dark side cyborg and Jabba's thugs. There's enough time between movies to where this is believable that he'd pick it up. He gets better, although the OT fights were admittedly not as flashy as the PT stuff and Lucas uses that lack of flashiness to justify that Luke was just a student and Vader was a broken old man.

    Anakin shouldn't even need to be elaborated on, but he had more than enough mentors to learn from and an entire system of training to educate him in the Jedi way. And Count Dooku beats him. But, he has an entire Clone War to fight and a mentor in Obi-Wan, and clearly passes the Jedi trials between movies before ROTS. We get this with the information given to us in the movies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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