PT The Relation between Sidious/Gunray (and other Separatists)

I don't know exactly how the Sidious / Nute Gunray relationship worked. And it gets even more complex when others separatists get involved! So, please, share your thoughts....

In TPM the viceroy was dealing directly to Sidious. The neimoidians weren't comfortable whenever they should inform the Sith about the situation on Naboo, and they felt even worst about dealing with Maul ("now there are 2 of them!").

At the end of the movie, when the neimoidians got arrested, it's not clear if they would share information about the Sith in order to get their judgement softer.

In AOTC we get to know that after 4 trials, Gunray was still free of charges. So, how could that be? Did Senator Palpatine secretly helped him politically? And if he did, was Gunray aware of that help from Sidious?

Dooku told Obi-Wan about Gunray leaving Sidious after the Sith had betrayed him, 10 years before, and Gunray coming after Dooku, telling him everything and asking for help.

This may contain some lies from Dooku, as Yoda had pointed out at the end of the movie about a Sith controlling hundreds of senators.

What is very awkward is Dooku telling Obi-Wan the whole truth about Sidious (possibly ruining the Sith plans) and lying about Gunray leaving Sidious (an insignificant part of the scheme).

Of course Dooku could be expecting to kill Obi-Wan before the Jedi could share this information to the Order. But then Palpatine would have committed a terrible mistake by dispatching the clone army along with the Jedi before he had assured Obi-Wan would have been killed. But about the part of Gunray leaving Sidious was it true or false?

Another awkward thing would be letting all the members from the Separatists (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union and so on...) to know Sidious was controlling senators. It would be very difficult to control how this info could be kept hidden from the Jedi and the Senate. So, how much info did the separatists knew about Sidious having any political status?

Anyway, we don't see anything going on directly between Sidious and Gunray in AOTC. Dooku is the head of the separatist state. Were the separatists aware about Sidious being the real head of their acts, or involved in anyway? Because if they were aware about Sidious being their ally AND Sidious being a strong political figure, they would get furious about the clone army not being informed to them. The Geonosis battle AND the whole clone wars have costed lots of money to the separatists.

The only time Dooku mentions about his master is after Gunray leaves, only talking directly to Poggle the Lesser. Dooku even tells him about his master being located on Coruscant. It was a huge sensitive info! Was it an info only for Poggle the Lesser, or it was transparent to all the Separatist leaders? Again, it's a very dangerous info for the Sith to share around!

Then, in ROTS, Gunray is shown dealing again directly to Sidious after Grievous' death. And now he seemed to completely trust Sidious. So what? Is there a problem about the plot not being concise? Was those relations well explained in other medias?

 

Yoda dispatched the Clone Army, not Palpatine "or" Sidious to Geonosis.

The Jedi knew that "probably" some Senators where controlled by the Sith but they have Diplomatic Immunity. So full investigations could only be down if they committed a crime.

Gunray never left Sidious. This was a lie.

Dooku did not say "his master" was on Coruscant.

Some seppies like Gunray & Poggle, not all, knew that Sidious ran the show. Only after Tyranus/Dooku & Grievous died did Sidious "step out of the shadows".

Edit: In no longer canon Legends anybody who found out that Sidious & Palpatine was the same, they had unfortunate "accidents".

WOO HOO! FIRST!

 

"I will take the designs with me to Coruscant. They will be much safer there, with my master."

 

Dooku lied about Gunray leaving Sidious because at that point he was still trying to keep up the facade that he was a well-meaning political idealist who wanted to recruit Obi-Wan to help him take down the Sith Lord secretly controlling the Republic. He couldn't very well do that if he admitted that Gunray, his fellow Separatist, was still working with Sidious.

I believe the Separatists were aware all along that Dooku served Sidious, yes.

 

I stand corrected.

 

If we go back to AOTC after Obi-Wan's message being played to everyone (including Palpatine), we see that the emergency powers they gave to Palpatine came from the need to authorize the use of the clone army.

The Jedi couldn't just take it and start the clone wars without Palpatine's blessings.... They wouldn't be able to send hundreds of Jedi from Coruscant to Geonosis without being noticed by Palpatine...

So, Palpatine knew about the attack of the Jedi AND the attack of the clones.

Woohoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Perfect!

 

If Palpatine said. "We can't use this Clone Army" it would make Palpatine a Seppie sympathizer. The Senate may declare a Vote 4 a more war ready Chancellor.

 

So, the plot has failed....

The separatists would consider Sidious and Dooku as traitors. The Sith should have alerted them about the clones attack (not just on Geonosis)...

 

I'm not saying Palpatine should have avoided the war. I'm saying he didn't alert his friends on Geonosis about the attack.

The survivors, like Gunray and Poggle would consider Sidious as a big traitor. They could afford to lose some battles in order to seem the Jedi were doing well, but that was not the case. The leaders were in danger in both Geonosis and Utapau.

 

Why would they do that? The Separatists don't know that the Sith are behind the clone army any more than the Republic does. This is made clear when Dooku feigns surprise to Poggle the Lesser and the others about the Republic having come up with an army so quickly.

 

The Seps are not really the Sith's friends, just disposable goons. Everybody is disposable to the Sith. Palp original plan was probably have the Seps sneak attack the Republic to start the war. However, things go a little off course with the Republic making the first attack instead but it stilled work. So Palp's adjusted his plans and likely only warned Dooku who clearly faked being shocked by the clone army.

 

If the separatists knew Sidious had political powers, then the Sith would be a great source of information. They could be informed of anything, including how the Republic army was being conducted.

So, by letting them being assaulted by the Republic army without any warn, the separatist leaders would consider Sidious as a traitor.

We have some clues indicating they knew Sidious had political powers.

In TPM he said to Gunray:

- "I will make it legal"
- "I have the senate bogged down in procedures"
- "Good. I will see to it that things in the Senate stay as they are."

If I were a separatist, I would vote for remove Sidious and all of his apprentices from ours schemes.

 

Yes. Gunray knew that Sidious had a strong influence in the Senate. That's made explicit in their dialogue in TPM. He doesn't know Sidious is Palpatine though.

He doesn't tell the whole truth. He also mixed lies with truth. Both to confuse the Jedi and not ruining the Sith plans. He basically made the Jedi aware of Darth Sidious.

Both. It's true that Sidious left him as seen at the end of TPM, but it's also true that he managed to get help from Sidious in the courts.

They didn't know he had any political position or status. As far as they knew, it was mostly influential power.

The corporations present in AotC would profit from the war. While its true they planned to attack a defenseless Republic, and that they were surprised about the clone army, they wouldn't be fools enough to go against Sidious. They , specially Gunray, knew how powerful he was.

Considering that Sidious hheld power over the senate, it's not a stretch to assume that he was on Coruscant. The planet itself is big enough to make that information almost pointless. Although yes, he was talking to Poggle alone, who was providing him the Death Star plans.

So Gunray never ceased to be faithful to him. And Gunray never said the opposite.

 

The Federation holds a good deal of influence within the Senate as well, as you'll recall Palpatine's remark in TPM about some senators being on their payroll.

I don't think they'd be any more mad at Sidious for failing to report about the Republic's attack than they would be at any of their others lackeys/allies in the Senate.

Unlike your typical Separatist civilian who may support the Confederacy out of true concern for how the Republic has been deteriorating for decades now, the figureheads of these Corporations come at it more from a war-profiteering view.

After all, they are part of the corruption that's been plaguing the Senate.

They are comfortable with the thought of war and other conflicts to supply their armada to Dooku with and reap good profits from doing so. (They did not hand over the battle droids for free).

After getting his free out of jail card from Sidious, I doubt Gunray would petition against him so quickly.

As for Dooku, he, not Sidious, is the face of the Separatist movement.

I think what Lucas was trying to communicate by having Sidious choose someone like Dooku as his second apprentice and having him be refered as a "political idealist" in the beginning of AOTC is that Dooku brought a sort of legitimicy to the Separatist movement, with his charisma and status as a former servant of the Republic/Senate who has "seen the light," per say.

Dooku fit the role to rally systems to the cause in ways that others like Maul and Grievous simply couldn't.

The Separatist movement wouldn't have gotten off the ground like it did without him. So I don't think they'd turn against him.

 

Also, the guilds and mega corporations supported the CIS because of concerns over free trade. In TPM the Republic was levying trade taxes, which governments long use to influence and control trade and free enterprise. Besides increases costs for the TF, taxes would also lower demand and the Republic curtailing their power. The CIS, at least portrayed in the films seems to be a corporate government which would allow free trade and likely abuses of free trade which would make tidy profit margins. In a deleted scene from ANH, Biggs warns Luke that the Empire is taking over trade in the core systems, sweeping away free enterprise, the former CIS's greatest fears coming true. Overall, the mega corporations where a threat to the Sith, so they set them up to fight their other threat the Jedi. Then once both were weakened, they would both be wiped out by the Sith.